Capecastle Revival?

[Patrick Davey]

So I decided to start a dedicated thread for this build, because I am totally petrified of what lies ahead and will need a lot of support and counselling along the way....

I am planning on modifying a Hornby Adams Radial tank locomotive into a representation of NCC S Class NG compound 2-4-2t No. 41, along the way transitioning from 4mm to 5.5mm scale.

The prototype: https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/Irish-railways/Irish-railway-archive-2/i-LZpC9MD/A

Mayner of this parish very kindly provided drawings of the class, my subject has an extended bunker though, added much later in her career:

The donor locomotive arrived yesterday from eBay:

 

And this morning I took the body off:

 

A side view of the chassis: 

 

Initial impressions are encouraging: the motor isn't particularly high on the chassis, presumably dictated by the profile of the Adams prototype, so that won't be an issue for the S class, and I can also see a way to reposition the cylinders to a location directly above where the leading bogie wheels currently are (the rear ones of course).   Overall the spacing of the Adams wheels is fairly close - I couldn't do anything about the driving wheels, even if I wanted to, but the front and rear wheels will need attention.  The front bogie will need removing completely and the wheels reused for two brand new front and rear wheel assemblies.  This will necessitate a bit of metalwork which I will need to subcontract out.......

The S class has a single set of wheels at the front and the rear wheels are smaller than on the Adams, and also further back.

Thank you in advance to everyone who will be kind enough to offer assistance with this one!

Edited September 24, 2022 by Patrick Davey

[Tullygrainey]

Cheering for you here Patrick 

Alan

[LARNE CABIN]

Yes, Patrick, way, way beyond me, but admire you for taking on this challenge. Will be watching with great interest and wish you every success. You will get there.

[popeye]

This is going to be a big job and you will need to make a lot of changes. 

I can help with the metalwork/soldering, if you need any help let me know.

Good luck.  

[Patrick Davey]

Looking at the Adams chassis here:

The screwdriver is pointing to a metal block onto which the body is attached via two screws.  I think the motor itself screws onto it as well.  But if I am successful in repositioning the connecting rod to the rear wheel, the lower part of the block will foul the movement of the connecting rod.

So this would need to happen:

Namely the red portion would need to be chopped off.  It's needed for the Adams but wouldn't be needed for the NCC loco.

A BCDR conversion for the Adams looks much easier at this point!

[Patrick Davey]

Ok more thinking out loud...... the cylinders are actually more or less in line with the centres of the driving wheels so maybe not high enough for the connecting rod to foul the block:

[Brack]

Looking at the service sheet (linked on here)

https://support.hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360016395479-HSS-415-Adams-Radial-4-4-2T

Might give some clues.

What I would say is that even if the rods will pass, do you want to go through all the work and effort of scratchbuilding a body and have that little metal bit sticking out over the corner of the wheel?

There was a guy on rmweb who used the chassis for some small highland 440s who chopped the protrusions off and just glued the motor in. I don't think it'd be too tricky, just drop the wheels and wrap everything in masking tape and clingfilm before you start cutting.

Ironically, the oxford Radial looks to be more amenable in the chassis department:

And theres a body free one on ebay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185556702795?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=185556702795&targetid=1405537545018&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006688&poi=&campaignid=17218284410&mkgroupid=142217514411&rlsatarget=pla-1405537545018&abcId=9300867&merchantid=116614716&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3rnCms2u-gIVDtTtCh20xw-gEAQYBSABEgIJRfD_BwE

Edited September 24, 2022 by Brack

[Patrick Davey]

Good point Brack - thanks for that.  I researched both chassis before choosing the Hornby one as I had read some poor reviews of the performance of the Oxford one?  Mind you there were also some issues with incorrect wiring on the Hornby ones but mine runs fine - phew.

I see what you mean about the block being visible whatever happens - a good point.  I came to this project with a mindset of 'close will do' and I was prepared to accept a few inaccuracies and being a black livery I hope that this kind of thing might not be as noticeable.  Also, upon further examination, I think I will need somewhere solid to attach the vertical bracket (excuse any incorrect terminology) that holds the horizontal bars that the pistons run along so this might work well for that?

And yes the Oxford chassis does look easier to work with in this situation!

[airfixfan]

Sorting out a batch of recently acquired photos. See 42 at York Road in 1948.

[airfixfan]

Rear view of 42 from April 1948

[Patrick Davey]

Fabulous thanks Airfixfan!

[airfixfan]

Last photo is unpublished and is from April 1948.

[Galteemore]

16 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Last photo is unpublished and is from April 1948.

Interesting to see two types of NCC tank together in that photo - pity the Jeep wasn’t a bit closer !

[airfixfan]

Have plenty of good photos of Jeeps now from 1948 to 1950 as well.

Edited October 6, 2022 by airfixfan

[Patrick Davey]

Update: I have decided to park this plan for now and instead use the Adams Radial chassis to upgrade my ancient Studio Scale Models T2 loco, which will be of more use to me when Brookhall Mill - hopefully - starts making appearances in the real world!

But all the help and advice above is very much appreciated - filed for possible future use!

 

[Tullygrainey]

Good idea Patrick. That should work well.

[leslie10646]

Watching this T Tank update with interest, Patrick.

Of all my brass kit-built locos they probably gave me least trouble, apart from the trucks shorting against the frames on my curves.

I purchased a THIRD one which had had clever surgery done to the kit and runs brilliantly, so I  planned to update the others, but your method might be worth trying, if you continue .......

[Colin R]

Hi Patrick taking on an NCC 3ft gauge S class is a major challenge in my book. A lot of people take one look at them and then give up, one day I will try it myself, but until then I have a load of other 00n3 locos and rolling stock to build, plus a layout as well at some point.

They are a lovely locos and it is a pity that a basic etch has not been done for them, As I am sure they would be popular in all three versions:- ie as build: as modified with a rear coal bunker and finally as the monster 2-4-4 S2 version. 

Regards

Colin

Edited August 4, 2023 by Colin R

[Mayner]

Derek Naylor a pioneering OOn3 modeller built a model based on an NCC 2-4-2T for his Aire Valley Railway during the 1960s. A series of articles on the Aire Valley and its locos was published in the Railway Modeller during the 1960s-early 70s.

The Aire Valley was inspired by John Ahearn's Madder Valley a self contained light railway linking a port with a hinterland, scratchbuilding techniques were fairly typical of the era with a number of locos and railcars inspired by Irish practice including a T&D look alike 2-6-0T, a CVR "Unit" rail tractor and a pair of 4w railcars inspired by early CDR practice. Stock and motive power was international in nature including an American Forney 0-4-4T, a German South West Africa steam railmotor, a Hunslet Heisler geared loco and American Back-Woods railtrucks1 

 

 

If anyone is interested in a complete set of Aire valley articles please send me a PM.

[Colin R]

Hi John thanks for putting this up on here, over on the narrow gauge modelling forum we have discussed this and other 00n3 layouts in some depth, I think there is a generational thing going on here as it appears that certain layouts have had an influance over many of us in the past.

As for me I think my love of big narrow guage steam locos is the key, the first book I got out of my local public library was Dr Pattersons book on the Swilly Railway and that has been my draw ever since, that said of course who could resist the big red locos of its neighbour on the Donegal?

I often dream of what may have happen if the Donegal and the Swilly had been taken over and merged into one big railway operation, there was of course a plan to do just that, but sadly nothing came of it.

It is however very interesting to find that even up to the 1920's and 1930's there were still proposals being made to expand both the Donegal and the Swilly Railways in all directions.  

[Patrick Davey]

Lovely stuff above, thanks folks.

@leslie10646

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/9334-brookhall-mill-a-gnri-micro-layout/?do=findComment&comment=205480

Videos of upgraded T2 with Adams Radial chassis, expertly modified and installed by Alan @Tullygrainey

[Galteemore]

I’m not surprised Mr Weaver was excited in that clip - he’s just witnessed a SPAD!! Lovely running T2 though 

[Tullygrainey]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:50 PM, Mayner said:

Derek Naylor a pioneering OOn3 modeller built a model based on an NCC 2-4-2T for his Aire Valley Railway during the 1960s. A series of articles on the Aire Valley and its locos was published in the Railway Modeller during the 1960s-early 70s.

The Aire Valley was inspired by John Ahearn's Madder Valley a self contained light railway linking a port with a hinterland, scratchbuilding techniques were fairly typical of the era with a number of locos and railcars inspired by Irish practice including a T&D look alike 2-6-0T, a CVR "Unit" rail tractor and a pair of 4w railcars inspired by early CDR practice. Stock and motive power was international in nature including an American Forney 0-4-4T, a German South West Africa steam railmotor, a Hunslet Heisler geared loco and American Back-Woods railtrucks1 

If anyone is interested in a complete set of Aire valley articles please send me a PM.

Fascinating stuff John. So much skill and ingenuity. Reading Derek Naylor's account of making coupling rods from Dinky hair curlers, chassis frames from curtain rail and bodywork from Oxo tins, I'm reminded how fortunate we are now in terms of available materials and components.

Alan

[Mayner]

The Aire Valley was pioneering in terms of 3' narrow gauge modelling, but very much in the freelance tradition as opposed to a model of a particular prototype. I did not realise the final version of the layout was based on the Madder Valley in its entirety until I visited Pendon while living in the Home Counties during the late 80s. 

Very much a generational thing as Colin R commented when serious modellers built quite creditable railway systems often with everything scratchbuilt apart from wheels gears and motors and brick/stone paper. 

The Madder Valley was probably the 1st scenic layout with scenery, building and structural modelling (and atmosphere) of equal importance to locos, stock and what was taking place inside the railway fence.

Funnily enough I started building bodywork from drinks tins on Triang chassis as a teenager in the 1970s, before turning to more conventional scratch and kit building during the 80s

[David Holman]

On 5/8/2023 at 5:54 AM, Colin R said:

Hi John thanks for putting this up on here, over on the narrow gauge modelling forum we have discussed this and other 00n3 layouts in some depth, I think there is a generational thing going on here as it appears that certain layouts have had an influance over many of us in the past.

As for me I think my love of big narrow guage steam locos is the key, the first book I got out of my local public library was Dr Pattersons book on the Swilly Railway and that has been my draw ever since, that said of course who could resist the big red locos of its neighbour on the Donegal?

I often dream of what may have happen if the Donegal and the Swilly had been taken over and merged into one big railway operation, there was of course a plan to do just that, but sadly nothing came of it.

It is however very interesting to find that even up to the 1920's and 1930's there were still proposals being made to expand both the Donegal and the Swilly Railways in all directions.  

Whisper it quietly, but a joint line from Letterkenny to Ramelton is very much part of my plan to do a makeover of Fintonagh. I believe Ramelton was on the alternative route to Burtonport, so not that implausible. Much of my Clogher Valley stock could find a home, with the Railcar, Unit and Phoenix going to the Donegal, along with a fair few wagons. The Swilly took some wagons as well. Whether they would have taken on the steam trams and balcony coaches is debatable, as they were pretty worn out by the time the CVR closed, but who knows? What I am hoping to do is build a couple of the smaller Donegal railcars and a Swilly 4-6-0T and 4-6-2T, plus some coaches and wagons. That way, Ramelton could be served by both companies.

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

Sounds like a plan 

[Patrick Davey]

A builder friend once told me that before the current build has finished, he always starts looking ahead to the next one, and so it is now, as Clogherhead nears completion......

I have changed the title of this thread to reflect the new plan.  I built a non-working diorama of Capecastle a few years back but regrettably I had to dismantle it and my mother and son haven't let me forget that, so I need to right that wrong.  The plan is to rebuild Capecastle but as was discussed earlier in this thread, to do so in a larger scale, probably O gauge using Peco O-16.5 track although this is still a bit narrow for the Irish 3ft narrow gauge.

The big difference here is that I will definitely be making the layout operational and after careful consideration, and having reluctantly decided to park the S class compound plan, I have decided to aim for one of the 060 saddle tanks which were provided for the opening of the Ballycastle line in 1880, and named 'Dalriada' and 'Countess of Antrim'.  I will most probably go for the second named because I have a photograph of my great-grandfather on the footplate of this locomotive at Ballycastle - he was a driver on the line in its independent days.

Alan Nixon @Tullygrainey has suggested that a Hornby Peckett 060 could provide a fairly good donor chassis:

 

 

The rear driving wheels aren't quite spaced the same but the cylinders are very close, particularly the slight slant.  I would be confident that I could build a body for the locomotive from plasticard and metal fittings.

The cogs are turning........

[jhb171achill]

Given the chassis, might some sort of 0.6.0 tender engine be a bit longer?

[Mayner]

I have been thinking about building a model of one of the Ballymena Black Hawthorne 0-4-2ST since I read PJ Flannigans C&L Pan paperback in my early teens (late 60s/early 70s) and several years ago did some work on a 3D model.

Possibly some scope for collaboration possibly combining etched scratchbuilders parts and 3D printing. 

I would go for a bespoke chassis, besides the very short wheelbase the Hornby 0-6-0St tend to stall on dead frog points and it may be challenging to fit a 'keep alive" decoder to the loco.

I will see if I can did out my 3D model of the Ballymena tank

[David Holman]

0n16.5 is a lovely scale to work in, because there is so much that can be used from 00 doner parts like coach and wagon chassis, as well as locos. The gauge is a bit narrow for representing 3', so (having previously thought about 5.5mm scale) it might be worth considering 1:50.

 Two options here. First, stick with 00 track, because with 1:50 (or 6mm/ft), the correct gauge is actually 18mm, which is only 1.5mm out and much better than 4.5mm in 7mm scale on 00. Not sure how that affects wheel sizes, but worth checking, because with a fair bit of adapting and scratchbuilding needed, being able to use commercial chassis should ease much of the pain.

 There are plenty of commercial figures available in 1:50 (also close to American 0 gauge, which is actually 1:48), while road vehicles likewise not a problem, for the same reason AND Corgi Classic and Dinky, among others were often 1:50 - in particular those lovely bus models. Buildings clearly not a problem for a man of your skills!

 The second option is as above, but go the whole hog and use EM track, which is the correct gauge. RTR points are now available from the EM gauge Society.

[Mayner]

I would be tempted to try 5½mm-Ft Scale used by Sam Carse on his County Donegal system which gives a more accurate representation of the Irish 3' gauge than On16.5 and less of an underscale appearance with loco chassis.

The main objection to a non-standard scale is that commercial figures and road vehicles are not available, but locos, stock and buidings/structures have to be scratchbuilt anyway.

[Galteemore]

16 minutes ago, Mayner said:

I would be tempted to try 5½mm-Ft Scale used by Sam Carse on his County Donegal system which gives a more accurate representation of the Irish 3' gauge than On16.5 and less of an underscale appearance with loco chassis.

The main objection to a non-standard scale is that commercial figures and road vehicles are not available, but locos, stock and buidings/structures have to be scratchbuilt anyway.

Amen to the above. And help is available http://www.55ng.co.uk/ check out the Irish layout ‘Ahascragh’ in the gallery section. 

Edited February 25 by Galteemore

[Northroader]

Would you be tempted by a caricature job, narrower gauge and larger scale, mine’s 1:32 scale, 20” gauge with 16.5mm track, or 1:34 scale, 9mm/foot, 22” gauge, which has some commercial figures available?

[Patrick Davey]

49 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Would you be tempted by a caricature job, narrower gauge and larger scale, mine’s 1:32 scale, 20” gauge with 16.5mm track, or 1:34 scale, 9mm/foot, 22” gauge, which has some commercial figures available?

That looks fabulous, any more pictures?

[Northroader]

Here’s what it looks like at present, the whole lot has shrunk to fit a circuit on an 18” square board, based on the premise “what would the Highland Railway look like if it was narrow gauge?” But you could apply the same principle to most lines.