Hattons launch 'Irish' range of Genesis Coaches

[Galteemore]

The drone eye view is most interesting - the Hattons ones look very skinny by comparison ! 

[Colin R]

Ah the chop saw beckons

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

From the side as you say they look dead on for GSWR style, I wouldnt know which was the scale model, I just recently came across a WLWR 6W 5 comp on HMRS that bears more than a passing resemblance to the generics... just time to wait until someone re releases them

The difference with WLWR stock was that while the side panelling was very much like this, the ends were bowed in rather than flat. Common on the MR & GWR in Britain, this style was unique here.

Since this feature makes a considerable difference to the overall design, these yokes are unsuitable for WLWR. 

If anyone wanted to model the WLWR specifically, six-wheeled Midland of England stock would pass generically.

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

The drone eye view is most interesting - the Hattons ones look very skinny by comparison ! 

They do. On a layout, though, the difference isn’t quite as noticeable for some reason.

[Killian Keane]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The difference with WLWR stock was that while the side panelling was very much like this, the ends were bowed in rather than flat. Common on the MR & GWR in Britain, this style was unique here.

Thankfully this particular diagram is devoid of the ends bowing in

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-22836-third-class-5-compartments-9ft-7ins-9ft-7ins-w-b-30ft-o-b.html

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

Thankfully this particular diagram is devoid of the ends bowing in

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-22836-third-class-5-compartments-9ft-7ins-9ft-7ins-w-b-30ft-o-b.html

Is this an earlier W & L design or a GSWR one? Either way, it certainly suits the Hattons model. Prior to WLWR as such, flat-ended W & L ones existed, but I don’t have any details to hand.

[Killian Keane]

Its an earlier W&L drawing, dated to January 1895 according to the HMRS listing

[leslie10646]

I got an e-mail today which told me (frightful price!) - 

Greetings from all of us at Rails! We wanted to give you a heads up that all outstanding pre-orders for the second batch of Hattons Originals Genesis 4 & 6 wheel coaches have now been processed and despatched.  With these orders now completed, we have VERY LIMITED NUMBERS of these sought after models available for general sale. As you have indicated interest in them previously, we wanted to give you priority notice ahead of them being made available for sale on our website. Unfortunately due to the number of requests we have had, we cannot respond to each customer individually - but we still wanted to offer you advance notice. The coaches will be available from 9AM on Wednesday 15th January 2025 and will be publicly advertised from 11AM onwards. Thank you for your patience and understanding. If you are able to make a purchase when the coaches are listed, we do hope you enjoy running them for years to come.   The coaches will be available from £49.95 each.

Use the button below to view the coaches we have available (please note, these will not be visible until Wednesday at 9AM)

View Genesis Coaches →

[Colin R]

If they have that many left in stock it begs the question of how many people ordered them in the first place but decided to cancel their orders after Hattons closed.

[Signal Post]

Thanks @leslie10646, order placed! I wouldn't have known about these otherwise, there were a few of them that I had mulled over getting originally but by the time I had made my mind up they were gone.....No such delay this time though.

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Signal Post said:

Thanks @leslie10646, order placed! I wouldn't have known about these otherwise, there were a few of them that I had mulled over getting originally but by the time I had made my mind up they were gone.....No such delay this time though.

I have weakened as well, and ordered just one. It will no doubt need widening in both body and wheels. Now I need to do some research into how many actually received black and tan livery, and how different they were from the Genesis model. Should have done that research before purchase really, but as you say it's a case of grab it while you can.

[Galteemore]

I think that’s a wise lesson @Mol_PMB- grab it when it’s there if you think it will be useful. Thanks for your eBay hints this past week! 

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, Galteemore said:

I think that’s a wise lesson @Mol_PMB- grab it when it’s there if you think it will be useful. Thanks for your eBay hints this past week! 

I'm delighted to see that those 7mm scale GNR items have found a good home!

[amdaley]

12 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

I got an e-mail today which told me (frightful price!) - 

 

Greetings from all of us at Rails! We wanted to give you a heads up that all outstanding pre-orders for the second batch of Hattons Originals Genesis 4 & 6 wheel coaches have now been processed and despatched.  With these orders now completed, we have VERY LIMITED NUMBERS of these sought after models available for general sale. As you have indicated interest in them previously, we wanted to give you priority notice ahead of them being made available for sale on our website. Unfortunately due to the number of requests we have had, we cannot respond to each customer individually - but we still wanted to offer you advance notice. The coaches will be available from 9AM on Wednesday 15th January 2025 and will be publicly advertised from 11AM onwards. Thank you for your patience and understanding. If you are able to make a purchase when the coaches are listed, we do hope you enjoy running them for years to come.   The coaches will be available from £49.95 each.

Use the button below to view the coaches we have available (please note, these will not be visible until Wednesday at 9AM)

View Genesis Coaches →

Rails price gouging 

No surprise I suppose.

[Mol_PMB]

OK, so having been succumbed to temptation I've had a quick lunchtime scan through Flickr and found the following relating to the black and tan full brakes, and other late survivors. They were not all the same type.

There was a group with a high elliptical roof and square-cornered panelling. These included 79, seen here withdrawn at Mullingar in 1969 (post-withdrawal) in black and tan:

TAD_GSWR_79_Mullingar_14_April_1969 | [Photographer: Tom A D… | Flickr

These two photos from Ernie show 71, of the same type, in light green livery in 1961:

69 at Downpatrick was originally one of these, though it is undergoing significant modification. Interesting history on this page:

GSWR 69 - Downpatrick and County Down Railway

 

Then there was another type that was distinctly different in appearance, with arc roof and round-cornered panelling. 1077 of this type was on a major railtour in 1964 and there are lots of photos of it; the 3 below are from Ernie on Flickr:

Here's sister 1078 in green, a livery which shows the panelling more clearly: 

There was another of this type in black and tan, number 18 seen in these photos by Ernie, in Cork in 1962

 

Based on the height of the orange on the waist panel, I think this is the same van in Tralee in 1963:

Searching back on the forum, this is a very useful thread:

This lists the GSWR full brakes withdrawn post 1960 with 3 in service post 1964 the last withdrawn in 1970 the oldest lasting longest in typical GSWR fashion. Strangely 1077 isn't on the list, but the other vans illustrated above are all there:

• No.18  1905-1964
• No.69  1888-1968
• No.71  1911-1966
• No.72  1898-1962
• No.79  1887-1970
• No.116  1887-1962
• No.1070  1908-1961
• No.1073  1908-1961
• No.1078  1908-1963

[Darrman]

I just went ahead and bought a bunch of coaches. I probably bought too many brakes, but I imagined a train in West Cork having a 90 at both ends of the train - a good enough reason for me to hit buy. Besides, my birthday's coming up, it's train purchase season.

[Mol_PMB]

I appreciate the model is a generic and is also standard gauge. However, comparing photos of the model to photos of the real vans that received black and tan livery, my observations are as follows:

• The general appearance, layout and length of the vans is a good match.
• The roof profile is a close match to 1077 and 18, but different from the older vans
• The panelling is also a close match to 1077 and 18, but different from the older vans
• The application of black and tan livery is closer to 1077 than 18.
• The model has windows in the double doors, not present on the Irish vans (not too hard to change)
• The Irish vans have a window instead of a deadlight adjacent to the double doors, not present on the model (not too hard to change)
• The arrangement of vents and lamps on the roof is different (not too hard to change)
• The model has the ducket to the left of the guard's door on both sides, while the Irish vans have both duckets towards the same end of the van - left of the door on one side and right of the door on the other

To regauge to 21mm I would need to widen the chassis by 2mm. The body also needs widening, perhaps by more than 2mm? I guess it should be either 9'0" or 9'6" wide over the body itself, the duckets wider still. Not sure how wide the model would be.

Is it justifiable within my modelling interests? Well geographically, 1077 seems to have got everywhere on that railtour, even outposts like Fenit. 18 appears in photos at Cork and Tralee.

The year 1964 is a bit early for me, but I can always invoke rule 1. I can stick it in the mail train with all the tin vans and TPOs that IRM are about to churn out

[Mol_PMB]

Most of the Irish ones are now sold out, only 4 out of the 15 types are still available:

Search: 15 results found for "cie genesis" – Rails of Sheffield

My black and tan one arrived yesterday only 24 hours after I placed the order. It's nice. In due course I will look at widening it, I think 2mm on the chassis and perhaps 4mm on the body. Can anyone confirm the correct body width for an Irish one? The model is a scale 8'0" over the body itself, I suspect an Irish one ought to be 9'0".

[jhb171achill]

On 15/1/2025 at 10:02 AM, Mol_PMB said:

I have weakened as well, and ordered just one. It will no doubt need widening in both body and wheels. Now I need to do some research into how many actually received black and tan livery, and how different they were from the Genesis model. Should have done that research before purchase really, but as you say it's a case of grab it while you can.

Only 2 or 3 became black & tan, and after the passenger-carrying ones were withdrawn.

So no BnT 6-wheel van ever ran with other six-wheelers!

Only six of these vans were still in use when the BnT livery came into use, and two of these were withdrawn within about 18 months, so probably remained green. Nos. 69, 79 and one more (11xx) were certainly BnT; not sure about the other one. Last two were in use on the Galway mail until circa 1968, and while not officially withdrawn until 1970, certainly looked well out of use by that time.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

Only 2 or 3 became black & tan, and after the passenger-carrying ones were withdrawn.

So no BnT 6-wheel van ever ran with other six-wheelers!

Only six of these vans were still in use when the BnT livery came into use, and two of these were withdrawn within about 18 months, so probably remained green. Nos. 69, 79 and one more (11xx) were certainly BnT; not sure about the other one. Last two were in use on the Galway mail until circa 1968, and while not officially withdrawn until 1970, certainly looked well out of use by that time.

If you've got 69 and 79, I've got 1177 and 18, so there were at least 4

[jhb171achill]

So, a BnT 6-wheel full brake has a quite different use to a green one. It is best matched with green or black & tan IRM Park Royals, and Bredins or laminates either in later green or BnT. An occasional Craven too in the midst of this, though an all-Craven train would stretch credibility.

 

1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said:

If you've got 69 and 79, I've got 1177 and 18, so there were at least 4

That’s the four, then!

Slight possibility of one more  though; I’d forgotten about 18.

 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

So, a BnT 6-wheel full brake has a quite different use to a green one. It is best matched with green or black & tan IRM Park Royals, and Bredins or laminates either in later green or BnT. An occasional Craven too in the midst of this, though an all-Craven train would stretch credibility.

 

That’s the four, then!

Slight possibility of one more  though; I’d forgotten about 18.

 

71 would the the other possibility, it survived until 1966. Seen in light green in 1961 a few posts up.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said:

71 would the the other possibility, it survived until 1966. Seen in light green in 1961 a few posts up.

Worth pointing out, too, in general for those with Hattons 6ws in both greens - by the time BnT came in (1962) no passenger carrying vehicles still had the “old” lined dark green, and all of the six-wheelers still in use were by now the light green.

There were still a handful of old vehicles hanging about in sidings, though, in dark green. Last dark green in actual use likely to be on the Clonakilty and Drimoleague-Baltimore branches.

[Mol_PMB]

These photos from Ernie and IRRS illustrate '40 shades of green'... 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501

This can't all be weathering/fading effects, how many shades of paint were there?

[murphaph]

The film and lighting confitions at the moment the picture was taken plays a significant role too though so it's hard to compare different pictures with each other.

[Horsetan]

10 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

These photos from Ernie and IRRS illustrate '40 shades of green'... 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501

This can't all be weathering/fading effects, how many shades of paint were there?

Some of that may be accentuated by differences in ambient light.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Horsetan said:

Some of that may be accentuated by differences in ambient light.

True, but in the majority of photos I've linked, there are distinctly different shades of green in the same photo and lighting conditions. That's why I picked them!

Edited Friday at 16:35 by Mol_PMB
correcting typo

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

These photos from Ernie and IRRS illustrate '40 shades of green'... 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501

This can't all be weathering/fading effects, how many shades of paint were there?

Two. These variations are all from lighting and varying survival of film emulsion.

Edited Friday at 22:12 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Pic 1: Claytons on W & T: old dark green with lining.

Pic 2: same on 2nd, 3rd & 4th coaches; lighter on first one.

Pic 3: hard to tell due to light, but very probably older livery, but as with some secondary stock, especially round Cork and on the West Clare, with no lining.

Pic 4: sunlight!!

Pic 5:  Dark green unlined and lighter green.

Pic 6:  Lighter green

Final pic: Railcar in lighter green, old coach in background unlined dark green. 

[Galteemore]

I suppose, @jhb171achill, it also depended how the paint was mixed that particular day, which explains the variations. I’m sorry, I couldn't help myself …I know you have a facial expression you reserve especially for that bon mot….

[Tractionman]

On 15/1/2025 at 9:18 AM, Colin R said:

If they have that many left in stock it begs the question of how many people ordered them in the first place but decided to cancel their orders after Hattons closed.

yes I was a bit suprised to see these appear in such quantities, and it seems the upped price is possibly putting off sales judging by the 4-coach sets still being available (less so the single coaches), eg for CIE Green, 200 notes for 4:

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/hattons-h4-46pack-1701-hattons-originals-genesis-pack-of-4-coaches-in-cie-dark-green-6t-6t-6cl-6bt

 

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Tractionman said:

yes I was a bit suprised to see these appear in such quantities, and it seems the upped price is possibly putting off sales judging by the 4-coach sets still being available (less so the single coaches), eg for CIE Green, 200 notes for 4:

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/hattons-h4-46pack-1701-hattons-originals-genesis-pack-of-4-coaches-in-cie-dark-green-6t-6t-6cl-6bt

 

Quite a few seem to have been bought by people who are immediately offering them on eBay at even higher prices - well over £100 for a single coach!

[Colin R]

I don't want to wish the worst on anyone, but I feel that for these coaches the bottom has fallen out of the market at present, if you can afford to wait then leave it six months or so and look again, I bet we will get a more realist market price then.

 

Colin

[amdaley]

5 minutes ago, Colin R said:

I don't want to wish the worst on anyone, but I feel that for these coaches the bottom has fallen out of the market at present, if you can afford to wait then leave it six months or so and look again, I bet we will get a more realist market price then.

 

Colin

I think some sellers are living in an alternate universe.

I've heard of being optimistic but this is just plain crazy

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/226337047407

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, amdaley said:

I think some sellers are living in an alternate universe.

I've heard of being optimistic but this is just plain crazy

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/226337047407

Not so much alternate universe as naked greed.

[amdaley]

4 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Not so much alternate universe as naked greed.

Surely that seller realises that no one in their right mind would pay that amount 

Sounds like something Gostude would do.