New Enterprise fleet

[Darrman]

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/241025/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Found this tender. Most of the documents aren't available to the public, but in the periodic indicative notice an estimated value of €480 million is mentioned.

[Westcorkrailway]

Yes please. My ride from Connolly to Belfast on a 29k was not fun 

[Louth]

At the same time, Irish Rail are extending the DART to Drogheda with a big increase in the number of commuter trains. The Enterprise already crawls in from Malahide and in the future will crawl from Drogheda. In 1947 when the Enterprise service started, it took 2 hours 15 min from Belfast to Dublin with steam locomotives. Journey times are the same today. Based on DART+ timetable estimates from Irish Rail, the Enterprise will in the future take well over 2 hours 30 minutes at peak times (and this is being optimistic). Another consequence of DART+ is a shuttle service between Howth and Howth Junction rather than direct services to Dublin. The solution is to increase the number of tracks from 2 to 3 or ideally 4 between Malahide and Connolly as was done on the Heuston-Hazelhatch portion of the Cork line. If you wish to make a submission to Irish Rail, send an email to DARTCoastalNorth@irishrail.ie by Friday 23 of June. Full details on www.dartplus.ie

[skinner75]

Cost of buying the extra land to extend to 4 lines between Malahide & Connolly would be quite the sum I'd wager!

[Louth]

Most of the route could cater for a third track without further land acquisition, but yes there would still be a significant cost. Irish Rail and NIR are planning for an hourly Enterprise service with "higher speed" Intercity trains. This just cannot be achieved with the current DART+ proposal.

[DoctorPan]

There was originally part of the scope of DART Coastal North to produce a quad tracking report or an addditonal project around the same time but got dropped.

[DJ Dangerous]

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Yes please. My ride from Connolly to Belfast on a 29k was not fun 

 

Lovely West Cork shade of green, don't be complaining!

[leslie10646]

A couple (?) of strategically laced loops would do the job and cost a lot less. It's hard to believe that quadrupling is necessary in Ireland.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Lovely West Cork shade of green, don't be complaining!

It’s almost like a combo of the 2. CIE greens in the one. which don’t go well together unfortunatly. 
 

but the 29k is my least favurite loco/unit on the rails…being shuffled off the comfy quiet DD sets and into that was a killer after 3 hours of Cork train already done  

[DoctorPan]

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

A couple (?) of strategically laced loops would do the job and cost a lot less. It's hard to believe that quadrupling is necessary in Ireland.

You would think but when you have a planned frequency of DART services of 3-10 mins, hour directional Enterprise services, existing Dundalk services and Tara Mine trains, quad tracking becomes the easiest option with the most resilence.

[minister_for_hardship]

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

It’s almost like a combo of the 2. CIE greens in the one. which don’t go well together unfortunatly. 
 

but the 29k is my least favurite loco/unit on the rails…being shuffled off the comfy quiet DD sets and into that was a killer after 3 hours of Cork train already done  

It'd be nicer with a line of another lighter relieving colour between the two. It looks dull especially in our often overcast weather.

[Darrman]

If I had to guess the Die Dietrichs are going to be replaced if this comes to pass. I don't think I've ever been on a 29k, actually, but it doesn't sound like I'm missing out on much. I'll probably ride on them at some point when checking off Dublin commuter tracks.

Regarding quadrupling the line, the current Dart+ plans suggest 36 trains from Clongriffin to Connolly during the am peak (presumably 12 per hour, with the peak lasting three hours). 12 trains use the four-track section eastbound from Hazelhatch between 8 and 9am, for comparison. Another six travel in the opposite direction.

16 hours ago, Louth said:

In 1947 when the Enterprise service started, it took 2 hours 15 min from Belfast to Dublin with steam locomotives. Journey times are the same today. Based on DART+ timetable estimates from Irish Rail, the Enterprise will in the future take well over 2 hours 30 minutes at peak times (and this is being optimistic).

Enterprise journey times certainly shouldn't be slower than steam: 2:30 is comparable with Cork trains yet those have another 50-odd miles to travel. But no rolling stock can solve getting stuck behind a Dart. Only extra tracks can - whether by four-tracking everything south of Malahide or putting in passing loops every so often to allow Enterprises to overtake. However, the Dart plan isn't really bothered about causing Enterprise congestion: the only extra track it could benefit from is a loop on the up line at Clongriffin. Four-tracking is briefly mentioned as out-of-scope in the Public Consultation No. 1 Findings Report:

Quote

3.4.7 Provision of 4-tracking or underground to improve rail network

Submissions have questioned the potential for the inclusion of 4-tracking, or underground rail construction, as a potential upgrade to the existing Northern Line.

Response: The provision of additional track installations, or the inclusion of any underground construction, is not currently proposed as part of the Preferred Option for DART+ Coastal North. The main objectives of the DART+ Coastal North project include delivering a higher frequency, higher capacity, reliable, electrified route to enable an increased DART service frequency between Drogheda and Dublin City Centre and it is currently considered possible to deliver these objectives without the introduction of track installations. Upgrades to telecommunication and signalling infrastructure along the Northern Line will also contribute to meeting the project objectives.

Or to put it more concisely, "we don't need more tracks for Darts". The few mentions of "Enterprise" in that document, including concern about journey time, are given similarly rambling non-answers. 

Quote

4.2.2 Effects of DART+ Coastal North on Enterprise and Commuter services journey times

It is important to note that the DART+ Coastal North Project will deliver rail infrastructure which will enable the proposed increased frequency and capacity of rail services between Drogheda, Howth, and Dublin City Centre. The project will also deliver improved reliability of services on the Northern and Howth Lines.

Actual journey times, and timetables, for DART services originating from Drogheda have yet to be determined. These will vary depending on operational decisions on the stopping patterns of DART services in the future, of which there are many variations and options to consider.

Timetables will be developed based on some DART trains stopping at all stations between Drogheda and Dublin City Centre, and others operating on a skip stopping pattern, similar to the existing stopping pattern on Northern Commuter services. Also, there will be different phases of timetable development that will be gradually introduced as the project builds towards the maximum level of service.

The operational detail behind each of these phases will be determined through the timetable decisions at those times. Any substantial timetable change will go through a Public Consultation process of its own organised by the NTA known as the Timetable Customer Consultation Process.

The operation of commuter services, or Enterprise services, during a peak period may result in an extended journey time for these services. This does however allow Iarnród Éireann to maximise the Northern Line track capacity, through the implementation of the DART+ Coastal North project. Factors including the output from the ongoing Enterprise Fleet Replacement Project, the improved acceleration and braking provided by the new DART+ Fleet, and the stopping patterns of DART services implemented on the Northern Line will all influence and inform future journey times for all rail services.

Modelling completed to date suggests expected DART journey times between Drogheda and Dublin Connolly during peak periods would take circa 53 minutes. Again, as described previously, it is worth noting that the DART+ Coastal North project will deliver the infrastructure to enable the maximum level of service on the Northern Line and future journey times and timetables have yet to be developed and will be sensitive to a variety of influencing factors.

The bolding is mine: this is the closest Irish Rail get to admitting that Enterprises could be slowed down. For what should be the most prestigious service connecting Ireland's largest cities, it potentially being slower than in steam times is embarrassing. I do see a logic in only focusing on the Dart in a Dart upgrade plan, but there's more to the railway than Darts.

[Galteemore]

It’s actually a misnomer to call it the Enterprise nowadays really. It’s become a generic name of an accelerated, comfortable stopping service, whereas the whole selling point of the original Enterprise referred to a specific crack non-stop express on the GB model. As late as the 1980s, IIRC, before the regular stops were brought in, the 111s and 071s were doing fast runs within 1hr 55. Interestingly, on the 40th anniversary run, Merlin managed to beat the original 1947 timings. No mean feat. On the return leg the spare engine was coupled on the front. What a spectacle that day was! Pic from RPSI site.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Galteemore

[hurricanemk1c]

On 24/5/2023 at 8:50 AM, Louth said:

At the same time, Irish Rail are extending the DART to Drogheda with a big increase in the number of commuter trains. The Enterprise already crawls in from Malahide and in the future will crawl from Drogheda. In 1947 when the Enterprise service started, it took 2 hours 15 min from Belfast to Dublin with steam locomotives. Journey times are the same today. Based on DART+ timetable estimates from Irish Rail, the Enterprise will in the future take well over 2 hours 30 minutes at peak times (and this is being optimistic). Another consequence of DART+ is a shuttle service between Howth and Howth Junction rather than direct services to Dublin. The solution is to increase the number of tracks from 2 to 3 or ideally 4 between Malahide and Connolly as was done on the Heuston-Hazelhatch portion of the Cork line. If you wish to make a submission to Irish Rail, send an email to DARTCoastalNorth@irishrail.ie by Friday 23 of June. Full details on www.dartplus.ie

1947 Enterprise was also non stop, compared to four stops, the dwell time alone being 6.5 minutes, and a stop on average costs an extra 2.5 minutes in acceleration and deceleration, so that's 16.5 minutes just for stops. I really hate when people just look at a time and go "oh it was better then" without actually properly comparing them. There has been trains sub two hours in the last year.  

[Louth]

Enterprise journey times in 1970 were 2 hours and 15 minutes with stops at Dundalk and Portadown. What is at issue here is not the headline time which can vary depending on time of day and number of stops, but that the Dublin-Belfast service will be considerably slower once DART+ is implemented. It is also contrary to the aspiration of "higher speed" Intercity services. 

[hurricanemk1c]

1 hour ago, Louth said:

Enterprise journey times in 1970 were 2 hours and 15 minutes with stops at Dundalk and Portadown. What is at issue here is not the headline time which can vary depending on time of day and number of stops, but that the Dublin-Belfast service will be considerably slower once DART+ is implemented. It is also contrary to the aspiration of "higher speed" Intercity services. 

Still not comparing like with like. 2 stops is not 4 stops. That is my point. Now they are 2 hours 12 minutes (generally) with 4 stops on a considerably busier network on both sides of the border, the NIR section in particular never being highlighted as an issue which is equally so due to signalling constraints.

[Noel]

52 minutes ago, hurricanemk1c said:

Still not comparing like with like. 2 stops is not 4 stops. That is my point. Now they are 2 hours 12 minutes (generally) with 4 stops on a considerably busier network on both sides of the border, the NIR section in particular never being highlighted as an issue which is equally so due to signalling constraints.

In the 21st century why are railways not using virtual digital signalling instead of physical signals. It seems Jurassic that wires are still used. Lines could be cost effectively and quickly re-signalled to have more shorter block sections enabling a trebling of pathways.

[hurricanemk1c]

15 minutes ago, Noel said:

In the 21st century why are railways not using virtual digital signalling instead of physical signals. It seems Jurassic that wires are still used. Lines could be cost effectively and quickly re-signalled to have more shorter block sections enabling a trebling of pathways.

Like ETCS Level 3 (in development) or CBTC (in use)? Both are better suited to consistent rolling stock characteristics than the relatively wide mixture of stock in use (a Tara Mines train has very different characteristics to a 85xx DART set). Such systems are not cheap by a long, long, long way, with many systems also having an absolute block system overlaid for when such systems fail.

There's a lot that's happened in the last 30 years which has seen far greater service level on pretty much all routes (bar a couple), network expansion and generally reduced average run times. Cork for example has gone down from 2 hours 57 minutes in 1991 to 2 hours 37 minutes today, and increased service level from 16 to 29 services a weekday. That factor is never considered in random comparisons against the best performing trains decades ago and what we have today.

Incidentally, while DART+ will have an impact, it will likely be less than people imagine. There's also due to be increased service levels for NIR which is equally never discussed. Always, always DART to blame.

 

[DoctorPan]

1 minute ago, hurricanemk1c said:

Incidentally, while DART+ will have an impact, it will likely be less than people imagine. There's also due to be increased service levels for NIR which is equally never discussed. Always, always DART to blame.

 

 

We're always the boogeyman. DART is always in a constant state of being prefect/needs changes/don't change it.  The rail usage, and customer demands and expections of 2023 are far different then the demands and expections of 1947...

[Noel]

Aviation control is entirely virtual and digital,yet the speeds are greater and the consequences of mishap orders of magnitude higher.  Why slow 100 mph trains cannot be controlled and separated digitally seems difficult to understand. The cork train service is excellent love travelling on those CAF PP sets. Is there a mental block in thinking about physical interlocking and physical mechanical default fall back.  It’s a national shame we don’t yet have a high speed rail link like TGV between our three principle cities, not to mention the laughing stock of Europe for not having a high speed airport rail link to EIDW and EINN

[Westcorkrailway]

Hate to winge but the intirior or the DD sets is much nicer then the mk4s. I’m a much bigger fan of the darker intirior. Big thing is the windows, them blue windows give me a headache after looking at blue for so long!

 

On 25/5/2023 at 2:50 AM, Darrman said:

If I had to guess the Die Dietrichs are going to be replaced if this comes to pass. I don't think I've ever been on a 29k, actually, but it doesn't sound like I'm missing out on much. I'll probably ride on them at some point when checking off Dublin commuter tracks.

 

Sher won’t be too long till there down in cork. Although to be honest the 2 car 2600 is perfect for there as it allows for more frequency next to a 4 car set. They would be much better for cobh boat trains and the mallow commuter services. 
 

 

[hurricanemk1c]

3 hours ago, Noel said:

Aviation control is entirely virtual and digital,yet the speeds are greater and the consequences of mishap orders of magnitude higher.  Why slow 100 mph trains cannot be controlled and separated digitally seems difficult to understand. The cork train service is excellent love travelling on those CAF PP sets. Is there a mental block in thinking about physical interlocking and physical mechanical default fall back.  It’s a national shame we don’t yet have a high speed rail link like TGV between our three principle cities, not to mention the laughing stock of Europe for not having a high speed airport rail link to EIDW and EINN

Planes can move left, right, up or down out of the way, trains can't. There's failures in comms there too and a set process around it which wouldn't work in a rail environment

Edited May 26, 2023 by hurricanemk1c

[DJ Dangerous]

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Hate to winge but the intirior or the DD sets is much nicer then the mk4s. I’m a much bigger fan of the darker intirior. Big thing is the windows, them blue windows give me a headache after looking at blue for so long!

 

You're blue, da ba dee da ba dieeeee...

 

3 minutes ago, hurricanemk1c said:

Planes can move left, right, up or down out of the way, trains can't. There's failures in comms there too and a set process around it which wouldn't work in a rail environment

 

I doubt that planes have to operate in such density, with such frequency, in such close proximity to one another. Not to knock ATC nor pilots, they rock, but it's like apples and oranges.

[Branchline121]

My guess is that they’ll probably have some of those new Alstom Coradias they’re testing out in the Low Countries to replace the 201 & DD combinations, as locos are definitely on the way out — there’s also the possibility of the higher-speed Siemens Velaros in the case that the line gets upgraded; either way, it seems that they will be dual-mode for the electrification south of Drogheda, or if IÉ decided to get their act together and electrify the way to Belfast.

[226 Abhann na Suire]

On 24/5/2023 at 12:21 PM, leslie10646 said:

A couple (?) of strategically laced loops would do the job and cost a lot less. It's hard to believe that quadrupling is necessary in Ireland.

The third track and platform at Clonfriffin seems a very underused asset to me, it would be an ideal place to board passengers on a DART while an Enterprise passed it out. Clontarf Road would certainly make an easy passing loop fix too, what with the stabling sidings that already join back up with the main line beside the platform, not to mention them being   pre-electrified, but it may be too close to Connolly to make this viable. Raheny would be an ideal second location for one too, although that might be a lot harder to achieve. 

[leslie10646]

On 25/5/2023 at 7:19 AM, Galteemore said:

It’s actually a misnomer to call it the Enterprise nowadays really. It’s become a generic name of an accelerated, comfortable stopping service, whereas the whole selling point of the original Enterprise referred to a specific crack non-stop express on the GB model. As late as the 1980s, IIRC, before the regular stops were brought in, the 111s and 071s were doing fast runs within 1hr 55. Interestingly, on the 40th anniversary run, Merlin managed to beat the original 1947 timings. No mean feat. On the return leg the spare engine was coupled on the front. What a spectacle that day was! Pic from RPSI site.

 

Have to agree with David's sentiment expressed here.

In German terms it's an Eilzug these days - a fast-ish limited stop job. NOT the train for which the Pess in 1947 lauded the GNR(I) "for Their Enterprise"!!!!

At least I had the pleasure of footplating an 071 on the non-stop version way back then, with the late Willie Graham, who drove with exemplary thoroughness which might have surprised those who saw him as a bit of tearaway! What a pity we don't have him around today (another good man taken before his time), as he'd have loved to have driven our steam engines, which as a youngster he'd fired to many great men.

[Noel]

On 24/5/2023 at 7:55 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

Yes please. My ride from Connolly to Belfast on a 29k was not fun 

Oh my goodness 2.5hrs traveling in that biscuit tin with seats designed to be sat on for only 20-30mins, back braking discomfort.

[jhb171achill]

On 24/5/2023 at 1:12 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

It’s almost like a combo of the 2. CIE greens in the one. which don’t go well together unfortunatly. 
 

but the 29k is my least favurite loco/unit on the rails…being shuffled off the comfy quiet DD sets and into that was a killer after 3 hours of Cork train already done  

The 29s seem good big solid things. If they had decent spacious quality seating and first class in them, they'd be fine for main line services......