"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

Well, some success and some failure.
 

I’ve completed the point operating rods, and the microswitches for the frog polarity. 

I’ve had E410 running around the layout for a bit, initially with no problems at all. 

Then it got something jammed in a set of points, and it stopped with a graunch. I think one of the rail sweeps was a bit low and stuck in a checkrail flangeway.

Now E410 doesn’t move and makes unpleasant noises. I think something has come adrift in the gearbox, or possibly a gear has stripped some of its teeth. I need to take it apart and see what’s wrong. So testing will have to go on hold for a while, as this is my only 21mm gauge loco at present. 

Frustrating. 

[Tullygrainey]

Frustrating is right! Hope the damage isn't too severe.

[Mol_PMB]

17 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

Frustrating is right! Hope the damage isn't too severe.

The worm had moved along the motor shaft. I think I was relying on a press fit rather than any glue. 
I have got the loco running again though it doesn’t seem quite as smooth - possibly the worm wheel is slightly damaged.
One of the hornblocks also seems to have stiffened up in the horns, and needs a fettle. 

Anyway, back on the layout I am having some of those undesired uncoupling events. I picked a different set of wagons to those I used previously and some are more sensitive than others. Partly due to how free-running they are, but perhaps also influenced by whether they have NEM pockets or Kadee draft boxes. More experiments needed! 
I may try adjusting the magnet positions. 
 

But I think all that is a job for the tail end of the coming week. I’ve got a few busy days at work coming up.  

[Mol_PMB]

Hopefully my ebay ‘bargain’ loco kit (the 650 class ex-MGWR 2-4-0) will also turn up this week. I need to see which variants can be built from the kit I’ve bought. 

Having read through many of @Mayner ‘s threads on the development and building of the kit, I get the impression that the kit evolved and they may not all have offered the same variant options.

The good thing is that I can choose between at least three late survivors that worked railtours (653, 654 and 655) which had different variants of cab spectacles, firebox, smokebox, dome and indeed a host of other details. 

I think 654 was one of the locos painted black (is there a list of those, @jhb171achill ?) but they all seem to have ended their lives in brown filth. Matching the weathering on 655’s tender would be fun!

Here’s 654 which has surely been freshly repainted for its railtour duty:

A comparison with a similar view of J15 193 also on railtour duty. This one is grey, but 654 looks truly black:

(pics from Ernie - thanks)

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Hopefully my ebay ‘bargain’ loco kit (the 650 class ex-MGWR 2-4-0) will also turn up this week. I need to see which variants can be built from the kit I’ve bought. 

Having read through many of @Mayner ‘s threads on the development and building of the kit, I get the impression that the kit evolved and they may not all have offered the same variant options.

The good thing is that I can choose between at least three late survivors that worked railtours (653, 654 and 655) which had different variants of cab spectacles, firebox, smokebox, dome and indeed a host of other details. 

I think 654 was one of the locos painted black (is there a list of those, @jhb171achill ?) but they all seem to have ended their lives in brown filth. Matching the weathering on 655’s tender would be fun!

Here’s 654 which has surely been freshly repainted for its railtour duty:

A comparison with a similar view of J15 193 also on railtour duty. This one is grey, but 654 looks truly black:

(pics from Ernie - thanks)

193 and an ex-MGWR loco were the last two steam locos ever to be painted, as late as 1961 or 2.

However, uniquely, they were given black smokeboxes and chimneys; these were grey previously.

Most of the few steam locos that saw a paintbrush after about 1954 were painted black. Among these were at least one 400 (normally green by then) and three of the MGWR 2.4.0s as above, possibly 4 or 5. 

654 & 655 were two of them. I’m unsure of the others.

One Bandon tank (464) was black at the end. Another 1 or 2 were green. The rest remained grey.

Ex MGWR “E” no. 560, which ended its days shunting in Tralee looks black in photos, but it seems to be heavily oily-ragged grey, as for many years I had one of its number plates and when squeaky-cleaned it was grey.

 

[Tullygrainey]

5 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Maybe having fixed magnet positions isn't the solution. How about a magnet mounted on a handheld spade-type device that you slip under the couplings only when you need it?

Kadee actually include this Heath Robinson contrivance in the instruction sheet for their under track magnets

 

[Mol_PMB]

16 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

193 and an ex-MGWR loco were the last two steam locos ever to be painted, as late as 1961 or 2.

However, uniquely, they were given black smokeboxes and chimneys; these were grey previously.

Most of the few steam locos that saw a paintbrush after about 1954 were painted black. Among these were at least one 400 (normally green by then) and three of the MGWR 2.4.0s as above, possibly 4 or 5. 

654 & 655 were two of them. I’m unsure of the others.

One Bandon tank (464) was black at the end. Another 1 or 2 were green. The rest remained grey.

Ex MGWR “E” no. 560, which ended its days shunting in Tralee looks black in photos, but it seems to be heavily oily-ragged grey, as for many years I had one of its number plates and when squeaky-cleaned it was grey.

 

Ah, that’s brilliant, many thanks for the info. I hadn’t realised that black had been the ‘standard’ for a while, though in a time when few steam locos were being painted. 
I thought 655 looked quite black too, but as you say it’s often hard to tell. Good to know that it was actually black. 

560 is another loco I plan to model and when it hauled a railtour to Fenit, the better-lit photos show that it was indeed a cleaned dark grey. 

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Ah, that’s brilliant, many thanks for the info. I hadn’t realised that black had been the ‘standard’ for a while, though in a time when few steam locos were being painted. 
I thought 655 looked quite black too, but as you say it’s often hard to tell. Good to know that it was actually black. 

560 is another loco I plan to model and when it hauled a railtour to Fenit, the better-lit photos show that it was indeed a cleaned dark grey. 

Same with the famous 1961 West Cork tour with a spotless “Bandon Tank” No. 464. 

Convential wisdom (and my opinion for a long time) was that it was black.

However, I’ve seen two photos of it that day and shortly after, which certainly appear to show it as dark grey. So I’m unsure; I would certainly not take it as definite that it was repainted in black, but it could have been.

it must be remembered that cleaning was done with oily rags. Dust and dirt stick to oil, so polishing if a very dark grey could very easily look black, especially in the colour emulsions used in camera films almost seventy years ago. 
 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

I will always paint 464 Satin Black as that’s how it looked, and Infairness it fooled pretty much everybody into believing it was black that day. So eyewitness accounts and photos would say so

However Upton closer inspection, it probobly was Grey underneath all that. Problem is though. Is it more accurate to paint it the colour it was underneath the dirt or the livery it actually presented itself in. Usually I’m not a weathering guy but in the case of Late CIE steam is it just as inaccurate to turn these locos out in Grey as is black? 
 

some IRRS views. The 17/03/1961. Under the spring sun from some angles, you can see grey 
 

https://flic.kr/p/2psQWnf

https://flic.kr/p/2psSoCg

https://flic.kr/p/2psSoBK

464 was also involved in another IRRS special later that year. Again the extreme sun reveals an interesting shade
 

https://flic.kr/p/2psSoBp

 

It’s seen here about 1962. Boiler looks more grey! 

It sat around in inchicore for about 3 years post withdrawal. By which stage the dirt seems to have been removed by the elements . 463 which was grey and has weathered to the same colour proved the theory. 

 

 

However. Im still looking for the holy grail. As at least 1, possibly 2 Bandon tanks were painted Green in Dublin. I’ve yet to see a photo that shows this livery aside from this very weathered look at 467 at Albert quay in the 1950s

[Horsetan]

All this paint discussion reminds me of:

 

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I will always paint 464 Satin Black as that’s how it looked, and Infairness it fooled pretty much everybody into believing it was black that day. So eyewitness accounts and photos would say so

However Upton closer inspection, it probobly was Grey underneath all that. Problem is though. Is it more accurate to paint it the colour it was underneath the dirt or the livery it actually presented itself in. Usually I’m not a weathering guy but in the case of Late CIE steam is it just as inaccurate to turn these locos out in Grey as is black? 
 

some IRRS views. The 17/03/1961. Under the spring sun from some angles, you can see grey 
 

https://flic.kr/p/2psQWnf

https://flic.kr/p/2psSoCg

https://flic.kr/p/2psSoBK

464 was also involved in another IRRS special later that year. Again the extreme sun reveals an interesting shade
 

https://flic.kr/p/2psSoBp

 

It’s seen here about 1962. Boiler looks more grey! 

It sat around in inchicore for about 3 years post withdrawal. By which stage the dirt seems to have been removed by the elements . 463 which was grey and has weathered to the same colour proved the theory. 

 

 

However. Im still looking for the holy grail. As at least 1, possibly 2 Bandon tanks were painted Green in Dublin. I’ve yet to see a photo that shows this livery aside from this very weathered look at 467 at Albert quay in the 1950s

Those photos, including one I haven’t seen before, certainly strengthen the case for it being grey, quite strongly.

In terms of accuracy, a clean engine in later days of steam was a rarity. I have even seen pictures of what I know to have been green engines, that are so dirty they could be pink with yellow and white spots underneath, and nobody would be any the wiser.

i have several grey locos 1 x SSM J15, 3 x 00 Works J15s, and very nice JM Design Midland 2.4.0.

When new, they looked a bit on the light side, but they were definitely not, as the paint on them was accurately colour-matched with the only surviving sample of GSR / CIE grey that I’m aware of.

i know that the manufacturers of the above went to painstaking lengths to replicate the original correctly.

Once I had them weathered all changed; they look like a dirty black. I think even a satin finish of black really doesn’t look right unless it’s a loco we know was black - and there really weren’t that many of them.

So I would go for grey, and weather it.

The weathering on steam engines wasn’t just an accumulation of smoke, soot, brake dust and general wear and tear as found on other rolling stock. Engines were cleaned with oily rags which could be quite dirty, and had the effect of appearing to darken the grey paint.

If anyone’s interested I have details of the RAL number somewhere, but it’s a very dark grey, not a light wagon-shade; significantly darker than 071s carry now.

Occasional exceptions; senior told me of one of his customary wanderings around Inchicore Works in his teens (mid 1930s) when he saw two newly painted engines ready to back into traffic. One was standard dark grey all over, but the other was much lighter, more like a wagon grey, he said. At first he thought it was undercoat but it wasn’t. It was a J15. He said he never saw or heard of any other engine like that - and he saw the lot!

 

 

[Flying Snail]

16 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If anyone’s interested I have details of the RAL number somewhere, but it’s a very dark grey, not a light wagon-shade; significantly darker than 071s carry now.

Yes please - would be great to have the RAL for GSR / CIE locomotive grey 

[Westcorkrailway]

The picture of 193 freshly repainted in 1962 shows it best imo.

 

[Mol_PMB]

17 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

The picture of 193 freshly repainted in 1962 shows it best imo.

 

Here's another view of the same loco on the same occasion, but from a different angle. Comparing to the van behind, it's definitely grey rather than black, but if you saw the loco on its own it might be harder to tell.

I tend to model locos and rolling stock in working condition rather than pristine, and the weathering can have a big influence on the look of the colour. Partly because it overlays the colour of the paint underneath, but also it provides some contrasting shades adjacent to the main colour. Colours can look very different depending on the other colours they are next to. 

The issue of colour scaling and the influence of lighting is probably something for another thread!

 

 

[Horsetan]

20 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

....560 is another loco I plan to model and when it hauled a railtour to Fenit, the better-lit photos show that it was indeed a cleaned dark grey. 

Wasn't 560 (with the enlarged cab) the last J26 in service? I've only ever seen black and white photos of it, but each photo has minor detail changes.

Edited 1 hour ago by Horsetan

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Wasn't 560 (with the enlarged cab) the last one in service? I've only ever seen black and white photos of it, but each photo has minor detail changes.

It hauled a railtour to Fenit in June 1961 and was well photographed then, for example this one from Ernie:

I have a feeling it wasn’t fully replaced on the Fenit branch until the G611 class arrived the following summer. Then it languished at Cork for a bit. 
 

[jhb171achill]

17 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Wasn't 560 (with the enlarged cab) the last one in service? I've only ever seen black and white photos of it, but each photo has minor detail changes.

I believe so - right to the end of steam in early 1963, I think.

[Horsetan]

12 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

It hauled a railtour to Fenit in June 1961 and was well photographed then, for example this one from Ernie:

I have a feeling it wasn’t fully replaced on the Fenit branch until the G611 class arrived the following summer. Then it languished at Cork for a bit. 
 

That's now the only colour photo of 560 I have seen! By then the smokebox door handles had been replaced by a wheel and handle arrangement.

The curious thing about the smokebox wrapper is that it has visible rivets along the leading edge, but none at the rear where it joins the boiler barrel.

I have a b&w one of it on what seems to be the same railtour day, attached to a tin van, plus another later b&w of it out of service at Cork.

Coincidentally 560 is the one I'm building out of the old TMD kit.

Edited 1 hour ago by Horsetan

[jhb171achill]

21 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think 654 was one of the locos painted black (is there a list of those, @jhb171achill ?) 

The late Bob Clements gave me quite a lot of info on this, along with some details of what was black. Most classes had no vlack examples but many did. He gave me a list of perhaps 15 or 20 locomotives which became black, but unfortunately I appear to have mislaid this over the years at some stage. If it ever turns up, I'll post the details here. This was his own list, not from any official source, so it is likely that unless this list turns up, there is no definitive list. 

What I HAVE found is his reference to later days, and this definitively settles it for the B4 "Bandon Tanks".

Clements wrote in the early 1970s that the last three painted were B4 No. 464; J15 No. 193, and (Midland) J18 No. 593. These were repainted GREY. Thus the apparent blck on 464 on that West Cork touir was not black at all; it was the dark grey, doubtless well polished with oily rags. Therefore, no Bandon tank was ever black; one green, rest grey.

WestCork, you mentioned the green Bandon tank(s). In the same note, Clements stated that 467 received green in 1947 and kept it, though it became very dirty. He does not mention any other enegine of this class in green. Three old 4.4.0s became green also; one each from classes D14, D12 & D4.

I will fish out the RAL for the grey paint later.

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

That's now the only colour photo of 560 I have seen! 

It’s nearly Panto season, so “Oh no it isn’t”…

I have collated lots of photo refs for this loco, including about a dozen colour ones. Mostly on the Fenit branch. 

[Horsetan]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

....Clements wrote in the early 1970s that the last three painted were B4 No. 464; J15 No. 193, and (Midland) J18 No. 593. These were repainted GREY. Thus the apparent blck on 464 on that West Cork touir was not black at all; it was the dark grey, doubtless well polished with oily rags. Therefore, no Bandon tank was ever black; one green, rest grey...

To misquote Father Ted:

"These engines look black, but when I looked closely, they were actually very very very very very very VERY dark grey...."

[Mol_PMB]

13 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

To misquote Father Ted:

"These engines look black, but when I looked closely, they were actually very very very very very very VERY dark grey...."

Is this one bigger? Or just closer?

 

[jhb171achill]

40 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Is this one bigger? Or just closer?

 

Dirty grey it seems, yes!