"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Mol_PMB]

Life has been busy but I’ve been plugging away when I get the chance and the GSWR carriage is now at the painting stage. I’m painting this in 1954 Brilliant Green.

The blue things on the left are British Railways FM containers, which were often to be seen in Ireland. I’m extremely impressed with the print quality - I’ve done no preparation other than some white primer and then ice blue. 

Many thanks to Slanjonok over on RMweb for the stl files and @Rob R for printing them for me. 
Slanjonok is also working on some CIE alloy container stl files for me…

[flange lubricator]

The coach looks amazing Paul.

 

[Rob R]

Paul,

Glad the containers passed your QC controls.

When I get a chance I'll post the printy specs for them in the 3d printing thread.

Let me know when the CIE containers are ready to print.

R

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

The body is progressing in the paintshop and now has the lining and number on one side.
I forgot to put the door bangers on the etch but I have made a virtue out of a mistake. The waist lining goes on much better without them, and I have used Archer rivet transfers on top of the lining to represent the door bangers. 

I have also painted the ends black and picked out the communication cord butterflies in red.

I have also been painting the seats; the saloon interior is painted already.

 

 

[Horsetan]

12 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

...I have also been painting the seats; the saloon interior is painted already.

 

Looks almost ready to receive scale-sized cushions for seats and seat backs....

[Mol_PMB]

31 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Looks almost ready to receive scale-sized cushions for seats and seat backs....

I did think about it, but decided that sewing and stuffing the fine silk wasn't in my skillset.

[Mol_PMB]

With the GSWR coach, I've got as far as a trial assembly of the painted parts, and now I can compare the livery to some of my other models too.

Still to do are the interior and glazing, complete the buffers, couplers and gangways, and a bit more on the bogies. But it's looking the part now.

All three vehicles are lightly weathered, though there's a bit more weathering to do on the bogies of the middle one.

The full brake is Humbrol 3 Brunswick Green, which is almost identical to BS381C 226 Brunswick Green, which was the colour used by CIE for their dark green. The plain dark green livery with no lining or logos was introduced in 1950/51.

The 30' composite is in Revell SM364 Leaf Green which forum members suggested as the best match for CIE light green.

The bogie coach is BS381C 221 Brilliant Green, custom mixed for me by onlinepainship.co.uk. The Spring 1954 IRRS Journal notes that 'Coaches are now being painted in a much brighter shade (officially Brilliant Green) with a narrow light green band along the waist-line...' This is the livery I have chosen for the bogie coach 840, as illustrated in Ernie's super photo of the same coach dated April 1956:

Interestingly, after a bit of weathering on both, the Brilliant Green has turned out very similar to the Revell SM36 green; the Revell colour being fractionally paler, and the brilliant colour being slightly browner. 

I do like all the 'gubbins' on the roofs of these old Irish coaches, so here's a roof shot:

Finally a comparison with an IRM Park Royal. Although the roof and underframe have been repainted on this one, the green has not. I think it needs to be toned down a bit, and I'm planning to mask off the windows and try a coat of flat varnish to start with. This is the Park Royal that I modified with the correct roof layout, and represents the last version of the green livery introduced in the very late 1950s.

I'd better stop writing and continue work on the model...

[popeye]

They look great and the roof detail does make them stand out from other models.

Shades of green are always a problem. Mix your own to get the colour you are happy with.

You can't go by photo's but it helps. In real life they were varied and aged so pick a shade you like.

[jhb171achill]

53 minutes ago, popeye said:

They look great and the roof detail does make them stand out from other models.

Shades of green are always a problem. Mix your own to get the colour you are happy with.

You can't go by photo's but it helps. In real life they were varied and aged so pick a shade you like.

This is true, and has caught out many a modeller over the years.

Paint two vehicles from the same pot of paint in the same day, use one on a steam-operated inland midlands branch line, and the other hauled by diesels on an exposed coastal line, and in only a couple of years you’d swear they were ORIGINALLY painted differently. 

Here, I’m well aware that Mol_pb has carried out a truly exceptional level of research in advance. 

To those in doubt, or seeking enlightenment, read the Mol chronicles here, and chapter and verse will become apparent. 

The proof of the pudding is not so much the notoriously unreliable tones apparently seen in 1950s / 1960s colour slides, but in the comments and memories of those who SAW the real thing day in, day out; and were also blessed with a very good eye for colour, which not everyone has. 

The research Mol has done, and conclusions drawn, and noted in these posts, align with the many tales I’ve been told over the years by people who were there at the time, plus my own (few and late) memories of things green. 

[Mol_PMB]

I’ve fitted the glazing and the smoking labels. In 4mm scale the latter are only impressions- the lettering isn’t quite readable. The transfers also look a bit faded in colour, but the real things faded too. They are applied to the inside of the window glass (and it is real glass). 

Anyway, the trouble with taking a closeup macro photo and then posting it in a large size is that it highlights all the imperfections I hadn’t spotted with the naked eye. But sometimes life is too short to worry about the roughness of the paint!

This picture also shows the door bangers from Archer rivet transfers. 
 

I’m pretty pleased with how this is coming together, but there are a few tweaks I’ll make to the body etch artwork before making it available to others, to correct some minor issues I’ve had to deal with in the build. 

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I’ve fitted the glazing and the smoking labels. In 4mm scale the latter are only impressions- the lettering isn’t quite readable. The transfers also look a bit faded in colour, but the real things faded too. They are applied to the inside of the window glass (and it is real glass). 

Anyway, the trouble with taking a closeup macro photo and then posting it in a large size is that it highlights all the imperfections I hadn’t spotted with the naked eye. But sometimes life is too short to worry about the roughness of the paint!

This picture also shows the door bangers from Archer rivet transfers. 
 

I’m pretty pleased with how this is coming together, but there are a few tweaks I’ll make to the body etch artwork before making it available to others, to correct some minor issues I’ve had to deal with in the build. 

Worry not, Mol, it looks amazing! 

[Mol_PMB]

I have been working on the interior this morning. 
Firstly some strips of thin black plastikard to form the floor:

Then I glued the seats in place:

And then I started experimenting with the curtains. After trying a few things, I chose crepe paper which has a nice texture, but was only available in white or very bold colours.

So using a coloured biro I ruled some lines on it to represent the pattern seen in Ernie’s photo of the prototype, and then cut into smaller pieces:

which look like this when installed:

I’ve got a few more to do yet! 
 

These coaches didn’t have many opening windows and I suspect the curtains were an attempt to stop them overheating on summer excursions.

 

Edited July 26 by Mol_PMB

[flange lubricator]

Superb modelling! 

[Mol_PMB]

Some views of the GSWR bogie coach which is now complete apart from passengers. These shots show it with a variety of other rolling stock.

It is perhaps riding a fraction high. I probably should have put one fewer washer on each bogie bolster to lower the buffer height 0.5mm, and on the revised body etch artwork I'm also going to reduce the body height by 0.5mm - I think I over-estimated the etching kerf allowance and the influence of fold geometry in the initial design. But it's too late to change this one, and it looks OK.

[Colonel]

Half a mil out - shocking! Looks great to me and a fine range of liveries and weathering too.

[Mol_PMB]

This week’s project has been a quickie - regauging and backdating a Murphy Cravens coach to as-built condition. 

Many thanks to those who responded to my questions about the underframe detailing and the interior colour schemes. 
 

A few photos of the modified coach:

Comparison with an unmodified one:

Coupled to a Park Royal (also modified):

 

I had painted up a load of passengers intending to put some in the Cravens, but then found that their legs wouldn’t fit under the tables. 
I’ll keep those people for another carriage, and paint up some leg amputees for the Cravens.

 

[jhb171achill]

Where did you get the “2”s? I’ve long had that on my “to do” list, albeit low priority! 

Since my layout is 1960s, when there were still a few green coaches to be seen, most of my BnT stock would have them on. 

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Where did you get the “2”s? I’ve long had that on my “to do” list, albeit low priority! 

Since my layout is 1960s, when there were still a few green coaches to be seen, most of my BnT stock would have them on. 

I drew them myself and had them printed by Precision Decals.

Same with the running numbers (1508, a carriage in which I have drunk many gallons of stout) and the vacuum release stars on the solebar.

 

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Where did you get the “2”s? I’ve long had that on my “to do” list, albeit low priority! 

Since my layout is 1960s, when there were still a few green coaches to be seen, most of my BnT stock would have them on. 

I'm sure I can spare a few 2s for you.

Although I'm completing each coach as an individual model. I have a vague plan in the back of my mind to create a series of trains typical of secondary routes (loco plus 3 coaches and a van) representing a range of periods from the late 1950s to the late 1960s, and perhaps a mid 1980s set too. Loosely representative of what operated around Cork and Kerry, and a manageable length for a model railway. I'm also ensuring that some of my coaches are eligible to run in an AEC railcar set in future.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419865335

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419876160

B159 Killarney | Another shot from my first CIÉ "Rover" as B… | Flickr

What I've also realised is that for these trains I need some composite coaches. There was a great cull of them in the early 1970s after the Mk2 stock had been introduced, but before then it would have been normal to have had a composite coach in most trains (except those formed of main-line AEC railcars which were themselves composites). But almost all the available models and parts are for standard class coaches. SSM did offer a Bredin composite but they're out of stock, and a relatively rare type too.

CIE built 5 batches of composites, all different. Hmm...

[Mol_PMB]

So, composites...

The first batch built by CIE in 1950-51 comprised 6 vehicles 2124-2129, 3 first class and 4 third class compartments. 60'0" long with traditional steel-clad timber body and traditional underframe. Three soon had one compartment converted to a luggage space for use as a through Belfast-Cork coach, and those were also fitted to work with AEC railcars. Two others were soon converted to Radio Studio coaches in 1955, and lasted in that role until 1980 when they were returned to normal passenger service (standard class). The rest were declassified to standards in 1972 and rebuilt to bogie vans in 1973.

A small class but they did work in Cork/Kerry in both loco-hauled and railcar sets. 

Etched sides on a Dapol, Bachmann or Comet LMS 60' coach basis would be an option, though the roof profile is somewhat different. Custom ends and roof would solve that at extra cost.

 

The second batch built by CIE in 1952 comprised 7 vehicles 2130-2136, 4 first class and 3 third class compartments. 61'6" long with traditional steel-clad timber body and traditional underframe. One became a Radio Studio in 1965, and lasted in that role until 1980 then returned to normal passenger service (standard class), the rest were declassified to standards in 1972 and rebuilt to bogie vans in 1973.

A small class but they did work in Cork/Kerry in loco-hauled trains. 

Being longer than the previous batch, LMS coaches would be less suitable as a basis for these. They feel like more effort than the previous type, for little benefit. On the other hand, a dimensioned diagram/drawing exists which would mean less guesswork in the artwork. And the same sides would also suit the next type...

 

The third batch built by CIE in 1954 comprised 25 vehicles 2137-2161, 4 first class and 3 third class compartments. 61'6" long with traditional steel-clad timber body almost identical to the previous batch. However, they were on a triangulated underframe like the Park Royals and most had commonwealth bogies. Many were rebuilt to bogie vans in 1973 but some remained as composites until 1976/77 when they were either declassified or rebuilt into brake standards. In that form most lasted into the mid-1980s.

Being the most numerous, these got everywhere and some are preserved. They are the obvious choice for a composite - but there's a risk that IRM think the same?

Etched sides on a butchered Park Royal would probably be the best option for these. Possibly a whole new body on a Park Royal chassis. The donor vehicles may be too valuable to chop up.

 

The fourth batch were built in 1957 and were suburban vehicles initially in unpainted aluminium - 10 vehicles 2162 to 2171. 61'6" long with laminate bodies, they were on a triangulated underframe and commonwealth bogies like the Park Royals . A very cramped saloon layout and no toilets meant they were usually confined to Dublin suburban services and some were fitted to run with AEC railcars. They had a relatively short life in original form, being declassified in 1969 and rebuilt to brake standards in 1970.

Despite the appeal of a 'silver' coach, they're not really suitable for my Cork/Kerry region.

Etched sides on a butchered Park Royal would be the best option for these. The donor vehicles may be too valuable to chop up.

 

The final batch of 8 vehicles 2172 to 2179 appeared in 1961 and some were in BnT livery from new. 61'6" long with traditional steel-clad timber body on a triangulated underframe and commonwealth bogies. They had three first class compartments and the second class was in a saloon. They were rebuilt to brake firsts or brake standards in 1975.

These were introduced too late to be in my green train and were fairly short-lived in original form. Probably not ideal.

Etched sides on a butchered Park Royal would probably be the best option for these. Possibly a whole new body on a Park Royal chassis. The donor vehicles may be too valuable to chop up.

 

Hmmm...

 

 

[flange lubricator]

1633 originally 2159 is at Dunsandle Station. 

[Mol_PMB]

22 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

1633 originally 2159 is at Dunsandle Station. 

Sounds like a good excuse to visit!

At present I have some very unruly sketches, diagrams and scans which I am hoping to develop into something that can actually be built into a model or two.

 

I also have a scrapbook of images comparing Park Royal profiles to other CIE-built coaches - looking here at cantrail height, roof profile, bodyside shapes etc as a sense-check for the drawings.

Studying these I am beginning to understand the subtle differences and thereby determine which types could reasonably use IRM Park Royal coaches as a basis, and which dimensions might need to be tweaked to get them spot on.

Laminates would be the easiest, but the laminate compos, although shiny and interesting, don't really suit my needs (I've done some side artwork anyway). A 7-bay laminate second is very tempting because the interior is the same as a Park Royal so it would be minimum effort, and it's also shiny (and I've drawn this too). But I've worked out that I already have plenty of second class carriages and what I need is compos.

The 61'6" compo body can either be put on a Park Royal underframe (with the edges filed down a bit), or a stretched LMS underframe, which is appealing as it gives two options. But it probably needs a full body etch (sides, ends roof) as these are all different from the donor vehicles. That's more work and a more expensive etch, but may well be the way I end up going.

A 60' compo could just be done with sides on an LMS coach, if I could tolerate the incorrect roof profile and width. I have some Dapol and Bachmann LMS 60' coaches (which I bought intending to fit the JM Design sides), but I''m not sure if my OCD will let me get away with that. Perhaps I should try doing one of the JM Design conversions and see if I'm happy with it? Could be a job for the coming weekend?