Irish Industrial Railways

[Mol_PMB]

Over on Ernie's photo thread there has been a brief discussion on Irish industrial railways. I've created this thread to continue a more general discussion on the topic rather than trample all over Ernie's thread.

Perhaps some of the better-known examples were:

• Bord na Mona - many extensive networks, mostly 3' gauge but some 2' gauge
• Guinness Brewery - an interesting 1'10" gauge system mostly within the confines of the Dublin brewery
• British Aluminium Co Larne - a 3' gauge internal system
• There were also several ports and harbours with their own railway systems, often connected to the main lines.

But that's only scratching the surface and there were many, many more lesser-known industrial and contractors' lines in Ireland.

For those who are interested, let's collate some info, photos and references here.

 

[Mol_PMB]

This little booklet was published in 1962. 

It comprises 48 pages including 16 photos. Most of the content is a list of the locations of industrial railways and the locos that they used. There are over 100 locations, I haven't counted them all!

Some more snippets and photos can be found online here:

INDUSTRIAL LOCOMOTIVES OVERSEAS (3) Ireland

 

Regarding the British Aluminium Co in Larne, as shown in Ernie's recently uploaded photos, the listing shows that they had 4 3' gauge locos - the 3 Pecketts and a Hibberd diesel:

• 1 0-4-0T Peckett 1026 / 1904
• 2 0-4-0T Peckett 1097 / 1906
• 3 0-4-0T Peckett 1357 / 1914
• 12/2 4wD Hibberd 2087 (acquired secondhand from Kinlochleven in 1953)

Over time I'll try to pick out some photos and info on some other lines.

[Flying Snail]

Intersting topic @Mol_PMB!

In addition to the narrow gauges, Guinness Brewery would also have included the 5'3" tramway to Hueston, and Cómhlucht Siúicre Eireann also had its own 5'3" shunters to manage traffic at its plants.There's also a number of industrial sidings such as the Shannonvale Mill one in Cork that was operated by horse.

Some interesting pictures of both narrow and broad gauge industrial railways here: https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS/INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES

[Mol_PMB]

Here are some of the books I have dedicated to Irish Industrial railways:

Many of the more general Irish railway books have a section on industrial lines.

 

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Intersting topic @Mol_PMB!

In addition to the narrow gauges, Guinness Brewery would also have included the 5'3" tramway to Hueston, and Cómhlucht Siúicre Eireann also had its own 5'3" shunters to manage traffic at its plants.There's also a number of industrial sidings such as the Shannonvale Mill one in Cork that was operated by horse.

Some interesting pictures of both narrow and broad gauge industrial railways here: https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS/INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES

Indeed - some good thoughts there. 

• CSE Carlow initially used 3 Cockerill vertical boiler locos, later two Ruston diesels. Two of the O&Ks were transferred there in the 1950s but it's noted they only worked as stationary boilers.
• CSE Tuam had 3 O&Ks and later two Ruston diesels.
• CSE Thurles had 3 O&Ks and later one Ruston diesel.
• CSE Mallow had 3 O&Ks, also one Cockerill transferred from Carlow, and a couple of Rustons.

There was some swapping of locos between sites.

Of course CSE later bought most of the G611 class but that was after the little book was published.

[leslie10646]

50 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

This little booklet was published in 1962. 

It comprises 48 pages including 16 photos. Most of the content is a list of the locations of industrial railways and the locos that they used. There are over 100 locations, I haven't counted them all!

Some more snippets and photos can be found online here:

INDUSTRIAL LOCOMOTIVES OVERSEAS (3) Ireland

 

Regarding the British Aluminium Co in Larne, as shown in Ernie's recently uploaded photos, the listing shows that they had 4 3' gauge locos - the 3 Pecketts and a Hibberd diesel:

• 1 0-4-0T Peckett 1026 / 1904
• 2 0-4-0T Peckett 1097 / 1906
• 3 0-4-0T Peckett 1357 / 1914
• 12/2 4wD Hibberd 2087 (acquired secondhand from Kinlochleven in 1953)

Over time I'll try to pick out some photos and info on some other lines.

I'll just mention that I have about a dozen copies of the "Irish Industrial and Contractors Locomotives".

If anyone would like a copy, I'll bring it to you at Blackrock for say a couple of Euros?

Income goes directly to Irish railway Record Society as they were part of a bequest.

UK buyers can have it by post!

Just PM me.

Thanks

Leslie

Edited Wednesday at 12:27 by leslie10646

[Westcorkrailway]

At home I have this book, which goes into detail on some bonkers railway lines. 

 

https://ebay.us/m/zTNN2K

[west_clare_wanderer]

19 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Indeed - some good thoughts there. 

• CSE Carlow initially used 3 Cockerill vertical boiler locos, later two Ruston diesels. Two of the O&Ks were transferred there in the 1950s but it's noted they only worked as stationary boilers.
• CSE Tuam had 3 O&Ks and later two Ruston diesels.
• CSE Thurles had 3 O&Ks and later one Ruston diesel.
• CSE Mallow had 3 O&Ks, also one Cockerill transferred from Carlow, and a couple of Rustons.

There was some swapping of locos between sites.

Of course CSE later bought most of the G611 class but that was after the little book was published.

That's fascinating. Do you know what type of Rustons were used? 

[Westcorkrailway]

3 minutes ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

That's fascinating. Do you know what type of Rustons were used? 

88 and 165 0-4-0 types

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:19 by Westcorkrailway

[Mol_PMB]

16 minutes ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

That's fascinating. Do you know what type of Rustons were used? 

The Rustons are listed as (works numbers, dates and locations from the Irish industrial locos book, types checked in the Ruston locos tome):

• 88DS 252843 of 1948 (Carlow) 
• 88DS 305322 of 1951 (Mallow)
• 88DS 312424 of 1951 (Thurles)
• 88DS 312425 of 1951 (Tuam, later Mallow)
• 88DS 382827 of 1955 (Carlow)
• 165DS 395302 of 1956 (Tuam)

 

Incidentally, the IRRS industrial photo album is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/albums/72157686685255922

And Ernie's equivalent is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157628618688939

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:32 by Mol_PMB
ernie album link added

[Mol_PMB]

It's worth noting that the IRRS Flickr Archive contains other industrial images that aren't in the industrial album. Here are some of the 88DS locos:

TMW_CSE_X_Thurles_BFS_13_Nov_1976 (2) | [Photographer: Tom W… | Flickr

TAD_CSE_X_Thurles_31_Dec_1970 | [Photographer: Tom A Davitt]… | Flickr

TMW_CSE_X_Thurles_BFS_13_Nov_1976 | [Photographer: Tom Wall]… | Flickr

TAD_CSE_1_Mallow_12_Dec_1970 | [Photographer: Tom A Davitt] … | Flickr

SoB_CSE_1_Mallow_BFS_c1960s | [Photographer: Seán O’Brien] T… | Flickr

NMA_CSE_2_Mallow_BFS_16_Nov_1962 (3) | [Photographer: Norman… | Flickr

Of course, Accurascale have an 88DS in their range, but...

[Westcorkrailway]

Funny that 4 88ds types still live on today in Clonakilty, Soon to be maam cross, Belturbet and whitehead. An impressive % saved, the fate of Tuams 165 being rather unfortunate…

[Killian Keane]

I came across this delightful little thing a while back, Hunslet 268/1881 Fergus, apparently supplied new to HC Drinkwater at Ennis in connection with a land reclamation project on the river Fergus, the loco was 2ft 6in gauge and I believe lasted until the late 1950s in England, catalogue information from leeds engine info

Edited Wednesday at 15:02 by Killian Keane

[Mol_PMB]

47 minutes ago, Killian Keane said:

I came across this delightful little thing a while back, Hunslet 268/1881 Fergus, apparently supplied new to HC Drinkwater at Ennis in connection with a land reclamation project on the river Fergus, the loco was 2ft 6in gauge and I believe lasted until the late 1950s in England, catalogue information from leeds engine info

Lovely! Apparently one of two locos used on that scheme, though there are no surviving details of the other one.

 

Later, another scheme run by the Fergus Reclamation Syndicate used a 1'11 5/8" gauge railway nearby. They had a smaller 0-4-0ST built by Andrew Barclay 703/1893.

[Mol_PMB]

3 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

I came across this delightful little thing a while back, Hunslet 268/1881 Fergus, apparently supplied new to HC Drinkwater at Ennis in connection with a land reclamation project on the river Fergus, the loco was 2ft 6in gauge and I believe lasted until the late 1950s in England, catalogue information from leeds engine info

 

One of these would be a great starting-point! Add a weatherboard, modify the smokebox and bufferbeam, add a few little details and you would have a good representation.

[west_clare_wanderer]

16 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

88 and 165 0-4-0 types

 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The Rustons are listed as (works numbers, dates and locations from the Irish industrial locos book, types checked in the Ruston locos tome):

• 88DS 252843 of 1948 (Carlow) 
• 88DS 305322 of 1951 (Mallow)
• 88DS 312424 of 1951 (Thurles)
• 88DS 312425 of 1951 (Tuam, later Mallow)
• 88DS 382827 of 1955 (Carlow)
• 165DS 395302 of 1956 (Tuam)

 

Incidentally, the IRRS industrial photo album is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/albums/72157686685255922

And Ernie's equivalent is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157628618688939

 

 

Thanks guys, that's really helpful. 

When I got home from work I remembered this book, so dug it out. Similarly, there's a list of all 48ds and 88ds locomotives and where they went. I'd forgotten it included those for export from the UK, so the Irish ones are listed. 

[David Holman]

Great thread.

 Recently been pondering on an 88DS for Northport Quay. Photos of the model indicate there might be enough room behind the dummy axle boxes to ease the wheels out a couple of millimetres each side to 36.75 gauge. If so, I'll have to debate my customary needs and wants with myself. I don't actually need one, but I could certainly want one...

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Great thread.

 Recently been pondering on an 88DS for Northport Quay. Photos of the model indicate there might be enough room behind the dummy axle boxes to ease the wheels out a couple of millimetres each side to 36.75 gauge. If so, I'll have to debate my customary needs and wants with myself. I don't actually need one, but I could certainly want one...

I've just had a quick measure of mine. There is some sideplay in the wheelsets, but with the wheelset in a central position there's about 1.5mm clearance each side between the wheel hub and the back of the axlebox.

However, the axlebox shape would allow you to remove up to another 1.5mm from the back of it without any visible effect, which would get you enough space for 36.75mm gauge.

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Great thread.

 Recently been pondering on an 88DS for Northport Quay. Photos of the model indicate there might be enough room behind the dummy axle boxes to ease the wheels out a couple of millimetres each side to 36.75 gauge. If so, I'll have to debate my customary needs and wants with myself. I don't actually need one, but I could certainly want one...

A “might-have-been” factory beside the railway….. think Courtaulds (Carrickfergus), Allmans Distillery (Bandon) and of course CSET at several locations. For a built-up area, we had Shell at Alexandra Road, Dublin, with their diminutive Planet loco.

In my teens I had considered a shunting layout based on Westport Quay as if it had been a private railway, to make use of an old Hornby shunter of some sort that I had. (Like many a grand scheme, it never saw the light of day!)

[Mol_PMB]

Some more CSE Rustons from the IRRS archives:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510219532

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511296226

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511727975

 

And a handful of other 5'3" gauge industrials:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447021843

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53446888671

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447303790

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447205704

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509025928

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509178074

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508861296

 

 

 

[David Holman]

Many thanks!  I thought there might be room and shaving a bit off the back of the axle boxes could well do the trick. However, wondering if would then need to realign the brake and sanding gear?

 Another concern is whether the wheels are thick enough overall to cope with moving them out 2.4mm on each end of the axles? Back to back on Fine scale 0 gauge is 29.2mm, I think, but 33.98 (call it 34) for broad gauge. When I looked at an Impetus 0-6-0T a while back, replacing the axles didn't look much of a problem, but potentially breaking the nylon main gear in the process put me off immediately.

 In the end, another loco I wanted, but  didn't need, so pragmatism ruled...

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Many thanks!  I thought there might be room and shaving a bit off the back of the axle boxes could well do the trick. However, wondering if would then need to realign the brake and sanding gear?

 Another concern is whether the wheels are thick enough overall to cope with moving them out 2.4mm on each end of the axles? Back to back on Fine scale 0 gauge is 29.2mm, I think, but 33.98 (call it 34) for broad gauge. When I looked at an Impetus 0-6-0T a while back, replacing the axles didn't look much of a problem, but potentially breaking the nylon main gear in the process put me off immediately.

 In the end, another loco I wanted, but  didn't need, so pragmatism ruled...

The brakes and sanding pipes would need to be realigned but it would be an easy fix.

The wheel hubs are fairly chunky, but you may be right that there wouldn't be much of them still in contact with the axles if they were moved out. Would you like me to take some more measurements?

If you like, I could take the cover plate off the drivetrain and send you some photos of what it looks like inside.