CIE 1950s train

[GSR 800]

The 1950s is an interesting period in terms of rolling stock. The recently formed CIE had inherited everything from modern steel side coaches built during the GSR period to ancient six wheelers of the MGWR, GSWR, and DSER. A train in the late 1940s or early 50s could be made up entirely of coaches, no two of which the same.

Any layout based in the period would need to cover this diversity. The GSR and CIE period coaches have kits available from SSM, Worsley Works, and overlays from JM designs. Some coaches, such as the PRs, have been covered by IFM in the past and a full RTR model will be available from IRM in the future. Hattons produced generic irish six wheelers before going belly up, and these are again decently covered with kits from various kit makers and 3d prints. 

The big omission is GSWR and MGWR corridor stock. At some point in the future, I'd like to commission prints of these, but for now, scratchbuilding, kitbashing and repaints will reign if someone wishes to model these!

Back to the present, I'd purchased some of JM designs overlays for the laminate coaches. Straight away hacking into the donor. Looks like something getting cut up. Tried conserving the strip of clear plastic for the roof plugs, but didn't work out. Will probably cut the bottom out and glue the roof on, as the outer body has a lip for the roof to slot onto.

Given a light spray of black so the plastic won't pop out. Looks like the victim of arson!

Overlays added

Painted, roof dry fitted.

Roof vents modified, roof painted

Needs filling on ends, detailing, glazing, lining, numbering, and interior painted. New buffers too, secondhand coaches always seem to have missing buffers!

Onto the less modern, perhaps this thing could be dressed up to look like something vaguely GSWR? Body and roof loose fitted.

On the way is a hornby clerestory and southern corridor composite. 

Not a million miles off GSWR corridor coaches?

Edited Monday at 08:45 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely superb. I could have written that post word for word - you've hit the nail firmly on the head.

That's a great job with that Worsley coach above - what was the donor? If I can EVER get the time, I'd like to be doing something like that too.

Very interested to see how this will progress.

As for resemblance, those LNWR types had different panelling to anything here, especially the very distinctive styles of Inchicore and Broadstone, but some of them have roof and sode profiles, and window spacings, which look sufficiently MGWR-esque to pass muster under the 2ft rule; the above included. While MGWR bogies were gone by the late 60s, with all surviving wooden stock by then being ex-GSWR, there were significant numbers of them still in use in the 1950s, and many even made it into black'n'tan. I've seen a picture somewhere, probably in the IRRS, of a spotlessly newly-painted black'n'tan MGWR bogie side corridor main line coach. Black and tan on a Midland coach looks plain odd, and it didn't suit their panelling style at all, but there it was.

I see you're using the post-1955 green - that will make the lining a whole lot simpler, and if you're short of "flying snails", no worries - while the earlier dark green had snails on everything without fail, in the later livery some stock had snails and some didn't! Bit like steam loco tenders........

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Absolutely superb. I could have written that post word for word - you've hit the nail firmly on the head.

That's a great job with that Worsley coach above - what was the donor? If I can EVER get the time, I'd like to be doing something like that too.

Very interested to see how this will progress.

As for resemblance, those LNWR types had different panelling to anything here, especially the very distinctive styles of Inchicore and Broadstone, but some of them have roof and sode profiles, and window spacings, which look sufficiently MGWR-esque to pass muster under the 2ft rule; the above included. While MGWR bogies were gone by the late 60s, with all surviving wooden stock by then being ex-GSWR, there were significant numbers of them still in use in the 1950s, and many even made it into black'n'tan. I've seen a picture somewhere, probably in the IRRS, of a spotlessly newly-painted black'n'tan MGWR bogie side corridor main line coach. Black and tan on a Midland coach looks plain odd, and it didn't suit their panelling style at all, but there it was.

I see you're using the post-1955 green - that will make the lining a whole lot simpler, and if you're short of "flying snails", no worries - while the earlier dark green had snails on everything without fail, in the later livery some stock had snails and some didn't! Bit like steam loco tenders........

Hi JB, many thanks!

It's a JM overlay. Might attempt the Worsley too at some point, but I've another one of these to get through first. Donor was the airfix/gmr/dapol stanier 60ft coaches. I have straight repaints of some of these also.

I think I've seen the photo of the MGWR corridor in B n T, very odd indeed! Hopefully, at some point, we'll have a 3d printed version, but there's plenty to get through prior!

It is painted in the dark green, same colour as Maedbh and the Bredin Steel side below (same can!) It is very deceptive looking, especially without lining. Not to worry, I have a rake of snails and numbers to add! 

Clip of Cyril Frys 670 tank paint for comparison.

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:51 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

Ah - just looked lighter in the pic! Always better to see things face to face!

Good luck - watching this with interest!

[GSR 800]

13 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Ah - just looked lighter in the pic! Always better to see things face to face!

Good luck - watching this with interest!

Many thanks JB.

Thoughts on the southern composite for a gswr/early gsr corridor? 

Next thing to figure out with the older coaches is the double step..

[Mayner]

My 21 March 2021 covers my approach to fitting my coach side overlays to the Airfix/Dapol Staniers including forming the tumblehome. Basically I ended up gluing the roof to the body and cutting a hole in the coach floor big enough to fit the interior.

Several years ago I built a train of 5 CIE coaches in late 50s green including a Buffet for a customer in the UK, but didn't build any for myself and probabably never get round to it as I have shifted back to the GSR era.

I have 6 SSM ex-GSWR 6wheelers to complete before moving my thoughts to some ex-Midland 6w and Bogie stock.

Worsley Works produce sets of etched parts (except roof) for Park Royal and Laminate coaches (scale width/length) similar in general principal to Comet Kits- http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/NG/NG_NIL_Art1.htm greatest challenge is forming the roof. These days the simplest approach would be to ask someone to produce a 3D printed roof to the correct profile.

 

 

[GSR 800]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

My 21 March 2021 covers my approach to fitting my coach side overlays to the Airfix/Dapol Staniers including forming the tumblehome. Basically I ended up gluing the roof to the body and cutting a hole in the coach floor big enough to fit the interior.

Several years ago I built a train of 5 CIE coaches in late 50s green including a Buffet for a customer in the UK, but didn't build any for myself and probabably never get round to it as I have shifted back to the GSR era.

I have 6 SSM ex-GSWR 6wheelers to complete before moving my thoughts to some ex-Midland 6w and Bogie stock.

Worsley Works produce sets of etched parts (except roof) for Park Royal and Laminate coaches (scale width/length) similar in general principal to Comet Kits- http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/NG/NG_NIL_Art1.htm greatest challenge is forming the roof. These days the simplest approach would be to ask someone to produce a 3D printed roof to the correct profile.

 

 

The next mod for the coach will be cutting out the bottom, the interior sits slightly too high for my liking as is. Weight will have to be slung underneath as with yours.

3d printing would indeed be useful for roofs. Interiors and details too.

At some point I'd like to tackle the MGWR Limited Mail. Cyril Fry had a model of an A and the entire rake, I believe its been posted on this site by Jb somewhere.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

The next mod for the coach will be cutting out the bottom, the interior sits slightly too high for my liking as is. Weight will have to be slung underneath as with yours.

3d printing would indeed be useful for roofs. Interiors and details too.

At some point I'd like to tackle the MGWR Limited Mail. Cyril Fry had a model of an A and the entire rake, I believe its been posted on this site by Jb somewhere.

If you call to the Malahide Fry museum some time when we’re both free, I’ll get anything you want out of the display cabinet so you can inspect / measure / photograph it.

[GSR 800]

12 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If you call to the Malahide Fry museum some time when we’re both free, I’ll get anything you want out of the display cabinet so you can inspect / measure / photograph it.

Many thanks JB, I'll be sure to give you a bell when I am!

[Mike 84C]

Just a thought, has anybody tried using the Worsley Works sides as overlays as in JM models coaches?

[GSR 800]

9 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Just a thought, has anybody tried using the Worsley Works sides as overlays as in JM models coaches?

Mike, it could probably be done; however, IIRC, John designed the length of his overlay to be shortened from the 61'6 inch prototype somewhat to fit the 60' Dapol chassis. So, you'd have to cut back the Worsley sides to fit. @Mayner would know better than I.

[David Holman]

Great project and a worthy accompaniment to a Queen.

[flange lubricator]

5 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Mike, it could probably be done; however, IIRC, John designed the length of his overlay to be shortened from the 61'6 inch prototype somewhat to fit the 60' Dapol chassis. So, you'd have to cut back the Worsley sides to fit. @Mayner would know better than I.

The Worlsey works model comes with  ends and a floor with the correct truss arrangement which you would loose . 

[Mike 84C]

Thanks gentlemen! you have sunk what I hoped would be a good idea!    When I bought some of Johns overlays I also bought the S/H Dapol coaches  but one was an Airfix in a Dapol box, took a lot of fiddling to make the etch fit the coach side, because the Airfix is about 2mm shorter. Lots of loud shouting from the profaneium (conservatory) where the modelling desk is. Got it right in the end but I carry a ruler now. 

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Thanks gentlemen! you have sunk what I hoped would be a good idea!    When I bought some of Johns overlays I also bought the S/H Dapol coaches  but one was an Airfix in a Dapol box, took a lot of fiddling to make the etch fit the coach side, because the Airfix is about 2mm shorter. Lots of loud shouting from the profaneium (conservatory) where the modelling desk is. Got it right in the end but I carry a ruler now. 

 

There was/is a trap with the Airfix/Dapol Stanier coaches the Side Corridor 3rd is a 60' coach the Brake a 57' footer, I nearly ran into the same trap myself. I re-painted a pair of the old style (square plastic axle) Hornby Staniers into CIE livery many years ago, but I decided that shortening a CIE coach by 4'6" was a bridge too far and settled on the Dapol coach as a donor body.

Worsley Works GNR(I) coach sides intended to fit Airfix/Dapol,Bachmann& possibly Hornby 57' coach body may be an option for producing GN, UTA/NIR or CIE 50s' or 60s era "Layout Coaches" models are based on "modern' flush sided GN stock used on trains line the Enterprise. The sides were comissioned at the request of Colm Flannigan who creates quite creditable models http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_4mm_GNR-I-K15.htm

These coaches would have appeared on the Cork Line in GN livery on the short lived Cork-Dublin Enterprise during the early 50s and absorbed coaches would have been re-painted into CIE livery after 58 though withdrawn by the late 60s, used mainly on the "Northern" but also have gotten about, perhaps a GN Enterprise to run with one of Harry's 800?

Edited Wednesday at 01:27 by Mayner

[GSR 800]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

There was/is a trap with the Airfix/Dapol Stanier coaches the Side Corridor 3rd is a 60' coach the Brake a 57' footer, I nearly ran into the same trap myself. I re-painted a pair of the old style (square plastic axle) Hornby Staniers into CIE livery many years ago, but I decided that shortening a CIE coach by 4'6" was a bridge too far and settled on the Dapol coach as a donor body.

Worsley Works GNR(I) coach sides intended to fit Airfix/Dapol,Bachmann& possibly Hornby 57' coach body may be an option for producing GN, UTA/NIR or CIE 50s' or 60s era "Layout Coaches" models are based on "modern' flush sided GN stock used on trains line the Enterprise. The sides were comissioned at the request of Colm Flannigan who creates quite creditable models http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_4mm_GNR-I-K15.htm

These coaches would have appeared on the Cork Line in GN livery on the short lived Cork-Dublin Enterprise during the early 50s and absorbed coaches would have been re-painted into CIE livery after 58 though withdrawn by the late 60s, used mainly on the "Northern" but also have gotten about, perhaps a GN Enterprise to run with one of Harry's 800?

I do have a few 57 footers kicking about, might be a project after this, since the early 50s is when I intend to model.

Would look equally well behind a 3d printed 400..

[GSR 800]

A humble question for our livery scholars.

I am wondering about the specific livery for the modelled coach above. I have seen photos of these coaches, brand new, unlined in what should be dark green given the date, with their window frames in unpainted steel. No lining, no eau de nil to be seen! One of these photos is ex works, so possible lining simply hadn't been applied, but regardless others do not show the full, double-banded eau de nil lining and numbering.https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508722781/in/album-72157662268090968

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507832507/in/album-72157662268090968

 

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that these coaches were intended to run with the new AEC coaches, perhaps explaining their lack of an upper band?

Interestingly, seemingly without lining in 1947 apparently?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343/in/album-72157662268090968

And a pretty interesting picture in 1954, apparently Claremorris. Two different liveries, the far laminate appears to be in the lighter green with silver chassis and bogie! Closest coach, again appears to be in unlined dark green, though it could be dirt/poor exposure?

 

 

[GSR 800]

Two arrivals this morning...

Hope to be able to make a start on these tomorrow, and do more work on the laminate. The far coach to my eye will make a passable early GSR corridor coach. 

Quite like the clerestory, has a nice character to it.

[jhb171achill]

The clerestorey has very much a GSWR-like look to it. I have one of these, currently repainted green, but as yet unlined. I've painted the roof black as it is, but I'm debating putting a normal roof on it. Your green coach is closer to MGWR styling, but of course perfectly appropriate in your scenario, as the very last MGWR bogies lasted until the mid-1960s, and a few even ended up black'n'tan.

Edited Thursday at 22:13 by jhb171achill

[GSR 800]

35 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The clerestorey has very much a GSWR-like look to it. I have one of these, currently repainted green, but as yet unlined. I've painted the roof black as it is, but I'm debating putting a normal roof on it. Your green coach is closer to MGWR styling, but of course perfectly appropriate in your scenario, as the very last MGWR bogies lasted until the mid-1960s, and a few even ended up black'n'tan.

I've had similar thoughts re the clerestory, the flat 'main' roof is quite tempting!

as for MGWR, any specific coaches? It's not entirely unlike 163M prior to ambulance coach conversion

Edited Thursday at 22:47 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

I've had similar thoughts re the clerestory, the flat 'main' roof is quite tempting!

as for MGWR, any specific coaches? It's not entirely unlike 163M

Not anything specific. On even cursory inspection, none of these GWR, SECR, SR, LMS or LNER coaches look truly like anything that ever ran on this island. (Exception: LMS designs on the NCC, but mixed in with older flatosided BNCR stock!).

However, the height and positioning of the windows on some SR stock vaguely suggests MGWR, whereas some GWR and LMS designs have a vaguely GSWR (and therefore GSR, and CIE) look about them. The livery change helps hugely, of course.

By sheer luck, the Hattons 6-wheelers were very similar in overall styling to be close enough to several batches of GSWR 6-wheelers, hence the run of them that was done.

But, yes, a number 163M on that yoke certainly gives the right overall impression! Had considered that too myself. A former MGWR bogie in West Kerry in the 1950s is not beyond the bounds of possibility, because one was seen at kenmare on occasion, and also (possibly the same one?) visited Wisht Caark, boy, too!

[GSR 800]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Not anything specific. On even cursory inspection, none of these GWR, SECR, SR, LMS or LNER coaches look truly like anything that ever ran on this island. (Exception: LMS designs on the NCC, but mixed in with older flatosided BNCR stock!).

However, the height and positioning of the windows on some SR stock vaguely suggests MGWR, whereas some GWR and LMS designs have a vaguely GSWR (and therefore GSR, and CIE) look about them. The livery change helps hugely, of course.

By sheer luck, the Hattons 6-wheelers were very similar in overall styling to be close enough to several batches of GSWR 6-wheelers, hence the run of them that was done.

But, yes, a number 163M on that yoke certainly gives the right overall impression! Had considered that too myself. A former MGWR bogie in West Kerry in the 1950s is not beyond the bounds of possibility, because one was seen at kenmare on occasion, and also (possibly the same one?) visited Wisht Caark, boy, too!

MGWR bogie 96M at Alberts Quay https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116022/in/photolist-2pBRTa7-2qE5gYJ-2pww8wY-2pwD4FU-2pww8fq-2pwBypu-2pwByrP-2pwCkH1-2pwCkH6-2pwCkHr-2pwCVpk-2py2ycK-2pww8xp-2pww8xQ-2pwAH9y-2pwByrd-2pwCkpa-2pwCVo8-2pwCVoP-2pwCVqC-2pwDywX-2pvwHKa-2pwjsTY-2pwByqG-2pwDm6y-2pwCcq8-2qEc2KN-2qEb3U6

 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Truly anything could manage to be in a West Cork service if it was useful enough 

[Mayner]

21 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

MGWR bogie 96M at Alberts Quay https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116022/in/photolist-2pBRTa7-2qE5gYJ-2pww8wY-2pwD4FU-2pww8fq-2pwBypu-2pwByrP-2pwCkH1-2pwCkH6-2pwCkHr-2pwCVpk-2py2ycK-2pww8xp-2pww8xQ-2pwAH9y-2pwByrd-2pwCkpa-2pwCVo8-2pwCVoP-2pwCVqC-2pwDywX-2pvwHKa-2pwjsTY-2pwByqG-2pwDm6y-2pwCcq8-2qEc2KN-2qEb3U6

 

 

The final batch of MGW coaches introduced in the 1920s were side corridor 60' vehicles similar roof profile to contemporary GSWR/GSR stock but half round beading & square cornered windows, supposedly the most comfortable 3rd Class coaches on the GSR.

Continuous footboards were fitted on the compartment side only, footboards only fitted at doorways on the gangway side.

 

If you can locate some Farish/Graham Farish OO Gauge "Main Line" coaches produced during the 70s & 80s are similar in general outline and window layout to the final batch of MGWR side corridor coaches built 1923-25 and a good 'generic' 1920s coach (apparrently 4 3rd Class & 4 1st-3rd Composite). https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/376398638208?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-172120-988740-8&mkcid=2&itemid=376398638208&targetid=325425753764&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9118386&poi=&campaignid=21479729684&mkgroupid=163598879926&rlsatarget=pla-325425753764&abcId=9484450&merchantid=494541900&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21479729684&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8fFNGybw-l_od2h21n33XV0&gclid=CjwKCAjw4efDBhATEiwAaDBpbmP5vpjkBXmU2lZV6eLaZGTSBCaTQK0e1x-KousPpJ7d7soLQIyKeRoCoDAQAvD_BwE

The Farish "Suburban" coaches are similar in general outline to GSR suburban stock (same Belgian 60' underframe as final MGW coaches) used on the Bray suburban services into early 1970(Black and tan livery)

Edited 4 hours ago by Mayner