CIE 1950s train

[GSR 800]

The 1950s is an interesting period in terms of rolling stock. The recently formed CIE had inherited everything from modern steel side coaches built during the GSR period to ancient six wheelers of the MGWR, GSWR, and DSER. A train in the late 1940s or early 50s could be made up entirely of coaches, no two of which the same.

Any layout based in the period would need to cover this diversity. The GSR and CIE period coaches have kits available from SSM, Worsley Works, and overlays from JM designs. Some coaches, such as the PRs, have been covered by IFM in the past and a full RTR model will be available from IRM in the future. Hattons produced generic irish six wheelers before going belly up, and these are again decently covered with kits from various kit makers and 3d prints. 

The big omission is GSWR and MGWR corridor stock. At some point in the future, I'd like to commission prints of these, but for now, scratchbuilding, kitbashing and repaints will reign if someone wishes to model these!

Back to the present, I'd purchased some of JM designs overlays for the laminate coaches. Straight away hacking into the donor. Looks like something getting cut up. Tried conserving the strip of clear plastic for the roof plugs, but didn't work out. Will probably cut the bottom out and glue the roof on, as the outer body has a lip for the roof to slot onto.

Given a light spray of black so the plastic won't pop out. Looks like the victim of arson!

Overlays added

Painted, roof dry fitted.

Roof vents modified, roof painted

Needs filling on ends, detailing, glazing, lining, numbering, and interior painted. New buffers too, secondhand coaches always seem to have missing buffers!

Onto the less modern, perhaps this thing could be dressed up to look like something vaguely GSWR? Body and roof loose fitted.

On the way is a hornby clerestory and southern corridor composite. 

Not a million miles off GSWR corridor coaches?

Edited July 14 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely superb. I could have written that post word for word - you've hit the nail firmly on the head.

That's a great job with that Worsley coach above - what was the donor? If I can EVER get the time, I'd like to be doing something like that too.

Very interested to see how this will progress.

As for resemblance, those LNWR types had different panelling to anything here, especially the very distinctive styles of Inchicore and Broadstone, but some of them have roof and sode profiles, and window spacings, which look sufficiently MGWR-esque to pass muster under the 2ft rule; the above included. While MGWR bogies were gone by the late 60s, with all surviving wooden stock by then being ex-GSWR, there were significant numbers of them still in use in the 1950s, and many even made it into black'n'tan. I've seen a picture somewhere, probably in the IRRS, of a spotlessly newly-painted black'n'tan MGWR bogie side corridor main line coach. Black and tan on a Midland coach looks plain odd, and it didn't suit their panelling style at all, but there it was.

I see you're using the post-1955 green - that will make the lining a whole lot simpler, and if you're short of "flying snails", no worries - while the earlier dark green had snails on everything without fail, in the later livery some stock had snails and some didn't! Bit like steam loco tenders........

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Absolutely superb. I could have written that post word for word - you've hit the nail firmly on the head.

That's a great job with that Worsley coach above - what was the donor? If I can EVER get the time, I'd like to be doing something like that too.

Very interested to see how this will progress.

As for resemblance, those LNWR types had different panelling to anything here, especially the very distinctive styles of Inchicore and Broadstone, but some of them have roof and sode profiles, and window spacings, which look sufficiently MGWR-esque to pass muster under the 2ft rule; the above included. While MGWR bogies were gone by the late 60s, with all surviving wooden stock by then being ex-GSWR, there were significant numbers of them still in use in the 1950s, and many even made it into black'n'tan. I've seen a picture somewhere, probably in the IRRS, of a spotlessly newly-painted black'n'tan MGWR bogie side corridor main line coach. Black and tan on a Midland coach looks plain odd, and it didn't suit their panelling style at all, but there it was.

I see you're using the post-1955 green - that will make the lining a whole lot simpler, and if you're short of "flying snails", no worries - while the earlier dark green had snails on everything without fail, in the later livery some stock had snails and some didn't! Bit like steam loco tenders........

Hi JB, many thanks!

It's a JM overlay. Might attempt the Worsley too at some point, but I've another one of these to get through first. Donor was the airfix/gmr/dapol stanier 60ft coaches. I have straight repaints of some of these also.

I think I've seen the photo of the MGWR corridor in B n T, very odd indeed! Hopefully, at some point, we'll have a 3d printed version, but there's plenty to get through prior!

It is painted in the dark green, same colour as Maedbh and the Bredin Steel side below (same can!) It is very deceptive looking, especially without lining. Not to worry, I have a rake of snails and numbers to add! 

Clip of Cyril Frys 670 tank paint for comparison.

 

 

Edited July 14 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

Ah - just looked lighter in the pic! Always better to see things face to face!

Good luck - watching this with interest!

[GSR 800]

13 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Ah - just looked lighter in the pic! Always better to see things face to face!

Good luck - watching this with interest!

Many thanks JB.

Thoughts on the southern composite for a gswr/early gsr corridor? 

Next thing to figure out with the older coaches is the double step..

[Mayner]

My 21 March 2021 covers my approach to fitting my coach side overlays to the Airfix/Dapol Staniers including forming the tumblehome. Basically I ended up gluing the roof to the body and cutting a hole in the coach floor big enough to fit the interior.

Several years ago I built a train of 5 CIE coaches in late 50s green including a Buffet for a customer in the UK, but didn't build any for myself and probabably never get round to it as I have shifted back to the GSR era.

I have 6 SSM ex-GSWR 6wheelers to complete before moving my thoughts to some ex-Midland 6w and Bogie stock.

Worsley Works produce sets of etched parts (except roof) for Park Royal and Laminate coaches (scale width/length) similar in general principal to Comet Kits- http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/NG/NG_NIL_Art1.htm greatest challenge is forming the roof. These days the simplest approach would be to ask someone to produce a 3D printed roof to the correct profile.

 

 

[GSR 800]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

My 21 March 2021 covers my approach to fitting my coach side overlays to the Airfix/Dapol Staniers including forming the tumblehome. Basically I ended up gluing the roof to the body and cutting a hole in the coach floor big enough to fit the interior.

Several years ago I built a train of 5 CIE coaches in late 50s green including a Buffet for a customer in the UK, but didn't build any for myself and probabably never get round to it as I have shifted back to the GSR era.

I have 6 SSM ex-GSWR 6wheelers to complete before moving my thoughts to some ex-Midland 6w and Bogie stock.

Worsley Works produce sets of etched parts (except roof) for Park Royal and Laminate coaches (scale width/length) similar in general principal to Comet Kits- http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/NG/NG_NIL_Art1.htm greatest challenge is forming the roof. These days the simplest approach would be to ask someone to produce a 3D printed roof to the correct profile.

 

 

The next mod for the coach will be cutting out the bottom, the interior sits slightly too high for my liking as is. Weight will have to be slung underneath as with yours.

3d printing would indeed be useful for roofs. Interiors and details too.

At some point I'd like to tackle the MGWR Limited Mail. Cyril Fry had a model of an A and the entire rake, I believe its been posted on this site by Jb somewhere.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

The next mod for the coach will be cutting out the bottom, the interior sits slightly too high for my liking as is. Weight will have to be slung underneath as with yours.

3d printing would indeed be useful for roofs. Interiors and details too.

At some point I'd like to tackle the MGWR Limited Mail. Cyril Fry had a model of an A and the entire rake, I believe its been posted on this site by Jb somewhere.

If you call to the Malahide Fry museum some time when we’re both free, I’ll get anything you want out of the display cabinet so you can inspect / measure / photograph it.

[GSR 800]

12 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If you call to the Malahide Fry museum some time when we’re both free, I’ll get anything you want out of the display cabinet so you can inspect / measure / photograph it.

Many thanks JB, I'll be sure to give you a bell when I am!

[Mike 84C]

Just a thought, has anybody tried using the Worsley Works sides as overlays as in JM models coaches?

[GSR 800]

9 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Just a thought, has anybody tried using the Worsley Works sides as overlays as in JM models coaches?

Mike, it could probably be done; however, IIRC, John designed the length of his overlay to be shortened from the 61'6 inch prototype somewhat to fit the 60' Dapol chassis. So, you'd have to cut back the Worsley sides to fit. @Mayner would know better than I.

[David Holman]

Great project and a worthy accompaniment to a Queen.

[flange lubricator]

5 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Mike, it could probably be done; however, IIRC, John designed the length of his overlay to be shortened from the 61'6 inch prototype somewhat to fit the 60' Dapol chassis. So, you'd have to cut back the Worsley sides to fit. @Mayner would know better than I.

The Worlsey works model comes with  ends and a floor with the correct truss arrangement which you would loose . 

[Mike 84C]

Thanks gentlemen! you have sunk what I hoped would be a good idea!    When I bought some of Johns overlays I also bought the S/H Dapol coaches  but one was an Airfix in a Dapol box, took a lot of fiddling to make the etch fit the coach side, because the Airfix is about 2mm shorter. Lots of loud shouting from the profaneium (conservatory) where the modelling desk is. Got it right in the end but I carry a ruler now. 

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Thanks gentlemen! you have sunk what I hoped would be a good idea!    When I bought some of Johns overlays I also bought the S/H Dapol coaches  but one was an Airfix in a Dapol box, took a lot of fiddling to make the etch fit the coach side, because the Airfix is about 2mm shorter. Lots of loud shouting from the profaneium (conservatory) where the modelling desk is. Got it right in the end but I carry a ruler now. 

 

There was/is a trap with the Airfix/Dapol Stanier coaches the Side Corridor 3rd is a 60' coach the Brake a 57' footer, I nearly ran into the same trap myself. I re-painted a pair of the old style (square plastic axle) Hornby Staniers into CIE livery many years ago, but I decided that shortening a CIE coach by 4'6" was a bridge too far and settled on the Dapol coach as a donor body.

Worsley Works GNR(I) coach sides intended to fit Airfix/Dapol,Bachmann& possibly Hornby 57' coach body may be an option for producing GN, UTA/NIR or CIE 50s' or 60s era "Layout Coaches" models are based on "modern' flush sided GN stock used on trains line the Enterprise. The sides were comissioned at the request of Colm Flannigan who creates quite creditable models http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_4mm_GNR-I-K15.htm

These coaches would have appeared on the Cork Line in GN livery on the short lived Cork-Dublin Enterprise during the early 50s and absorbed coaches would have been re-painted into CIE livery after 58 though withdrawn by the late 60s, used mainly on the "Northern" but also have gotten about, perhaps a GN Enterprise to run with one of Harry's 800?

Edited July 16 by Mayner

[GSR 800]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

There was/is a trap with the Airfix/Dapol Stanier coaches the Side Corridor 3rd is a 60' coach the Brake a 57' footer, I nearly ran into the same trap myself. I re-painted a pair of the old style (square plastic axle) Hornby Staniers into CIE livery many years ago, but I decided that shortening a CIE coach by 4'6" was a bridge too far and settled on the Dapol coach as a donor body.

Worsley Works GNR(I) coach sides intended to fit Airfix/Dapol,Bachmann& possibly Hornby 57' coach body may be an option for producing GN, UTA/NIR or CIE 50s' or 60s era "Layout Coaches" models are based on "modern' flush sided GN stock used on trains line the Enterprise. The sides were comissioned at the request of Colm Flannigan who creates quite creditable models http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_4mm_GNR-I-K15.htm

These coaches would have appeared on the Cork Line in GN livery on the short lived Cork-Dublin Enterprise during the early 50s and absorbed coaches would have been re-painted into CIE livery after 58 though withdrawn by the late 60s, used mainly on the "Northern" but also have gotten about, perhaps a GN Enterprise to run with one of Harry's 800?

I do have a few 57 footers kicking about, might be a project after this, since the early 50s is when I intend to model.

Would look equally well behind a 3d printed 400..

[GSR 800]

A humble question for our livery scholars.

I am wondering about the specific livery for the modelled coach above. I have seen photos of these coaches, brand new, unlined in what should be dark green given the date, with their window frames in unpainted steel. No lining, no eau de nil to be seen! One of these photos is ex works, so possible lining simply hadn't been applied, but regardless others do not show the full, double-banded eau de nil lining and numbering.https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508722781/in/album-72157662268090968

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507832507/in/album-72157662268090968

 

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that these coaches were intended to run with the new AEC coaches, perhaps explaining their lack of an upper band?

Interestingly, seemingly without lining in 1947 apparently?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343/in/album-72157662268090968

And a pretty interesting picture in 1954, apparently Claremorris. Two different liveries, the far laminate appears to be in the lighter green with silver chassis and bogie! Closest coach, again appears to be in unlined dark green, though it could be dirt/poor exposure?

 

 

[GSR 800]

Two arrivals this morning...

Hope to be able to make a start on these tomorrow, and do more work on the laminate. The far coach to my eye will make a passable early GSR corridor coach. 

Quite like the clerestory, has a nice character to it.

[jhb171achill]

The clerestorey has very much a GSWR-like look to it. I have one of these, currently repainted green, but as yet unlined. I've painted the roof black as it is, but I'm debating putting a normal roof on it. Your green coach is closer to MGWR styling, but of course perfectly appropriate in your scenario, as the very last MGWR bogies lasted until the mid-1960s, and a few even ended up black'n'tan.

Edited July 17 by jhb171achill

[GSR 800]

35 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The clerestorey has very much a GSWR-like look to it. I have one of these, currently repainted green, but as yet unlined. I've painted the roof black as it is, but I'm debating putting a normal roof on it. Your green coach is closer to MGWR styling, but of course perfectly appropriate in your scenario, as the very last MGWR bogies lasted until the mid-1960s, and a few even ended up black'n'tan.

I've had similar thoughts re the clerestory, the flat 'main' roof is quite tempting!

as for MGWR, any specific coaches? It's not entirely unlike 163M prior to ambulance coach conversion

Edited July 17 by GSR 800

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

I've had similar thoughts re the clerestory, the flat 'main' roof is quite tempting!

as for MGWR, any specific coaches? It's not entirely unlike 163M

Not anything specific. On even cursory inspection, none of these GWR, SECR, SR, LMS or LNER coaches look truly like anything that ever ran on this island. (Exception: LMS designs on the NCC, but mixed in with older flatosided BNCR stock!).

However, the height and positioning of the windows on some SR stock vaguely suggests MGWR, whereas some GWR and LMS designs have a vaguely GSWR (and therefore GSR, and CIE) look about them. The livery change helps hugely, of course.

By sheer luck, the Hattons 6-wheelers were very similar in overall styling to be close enough to several batches of GSWR 6-wheelers, hence the run of them that was done.

But, yes, a number 163M on that yoke certainly gives the right overall impression! Had considered that too myself. A former MGWR bogie in West Kerry in the 1950s is not beyond the bounds of possibility, because one was seen at kenmare on occasion, and also (possibly the same one?) visited Wisht Caark, boy, too!

[GSR 800]

5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Not anything specific. On even cursory inspection, none of these GWR, SECR, SR, LMS or LNER coaches look truly like anything that ever ran on this island. (Exception: LMS designs on the NCC, but mixed in with older flatosided BNCR stock!).

However, the height and positioning of the windows on some SR stock vaguely suggests MGWR, whereas some GWR and LMS designs have a vaguely GSWR (and therefore GSR, and CIE) look about them. The livery change helps hugely, of course.

By sheer luck, the Hattons 6-wheelers were very similar in overall styling to be close enough to several batches of GSWR 6-wheelers, hence the run of them that was done.

But, yes, a number 163M on that yoke certainly gives the right overall impression! Had considered that too myself. A former MGWR bogie in West Kerry in the 1950s is not beyond the bounds of possibility, because one was seen at kenmare on occasion, and also (possibly the same one?) visited Wisht Caark, boy, too!

MGWR bogie 96M at Alberts Quay https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116022/in/photolist-2pBRTa7-2qE5gYJ-2pww8wY-2pwD4FU-2pww8fq-2pwBypu-2pwByrP-2pwCkH1-2pwCkH6-2pwCkHr-2pwCVpk-2py2ycK-2pww8xp-2pww8xQ-2pwAH9y-2pwByrd-2pwCkpa-2pwCVo8-2pwCVoP-2pwCVqC-2pwDywX-2pvwHKa-2pwjsTY-2pwByqG-2pwDm6y-2pwCcq8-2qEc2KN-2qEb3U6

 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Truly anything could manage to be in a West Cork service if it was useful enough 

[Mayner]

21 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

MGWR bogie 96M at Alberts Quay https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252116022/in/photolist-2pBRTa7-2qE5gYJ-2pww8wY-2pwD4FU-2pww8fq-2pwBypu-2pwByrP-2pwCkH1-2pwCkH6-2pwCkHr-2pwCVpk-2py2ycK-2pww8xp-2pww8xQ-2pwAH9y-2pwByrd-2pwCkpa-2pwCVo8-2pwCVoP-2pwCVqC-2pwDywX-2pvwHKa-2pwjsTY-2pwByqG-2pwDm6y-2pwCcq8-2qEc2KN-2qEb3U6

 

 

The final batch of MGW coaches introduced in the 1920s were side corridor 60' vehicles similar roof profile to contemporary GSWR/GSR stock but half round beading & square cornered windows, supposedly the most comfortable 3rd Class coaches on the GSR.

Continuous footboards were fitted on the compartment side only, footboards only fitted at doorways on the gangway side.

 

If you can locate some Farish/Graham Farish OO Gauge "Main Line" coaches produced during the 70s & 80s are similar in general outline and window layout to the final batch of MGWR side corridor coaches built 1923-25 and a good 'generic' 1920s coach (apparrently 4 3rd Class & 4 1st-3rd Composite). https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/376398638208?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-172120-988740-8&mkcid=2&itemid=376398638208&targetid=325425753764&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9118386&poi=&campaignid=21479729684&mkgroupid=163598879926&rlsatarget=pla-325425753764&abcId=9484450&merchantid=494541900&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21479729684&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8fFNGybw-l_od2h21n33XV0&gclid=CjwKCAjw4efDBhATEiwAaDBpbmP5vpjkBXmU2lZV6eLaZGTSBCaTQK0e1x-KousPpJ7d7soLQIyKeRoCoDAQAvD_BwE

The Farish "Suburban" coaches are similar in general outline to GSR suburban stock (same Belgian 60' underframe as final MGW coaches) used on the Bray suburban services into early 1970(Black and tan livery)

Edited July 19 by Mayner

[Mol_PMB]

On 16/7/2025 at 9:11 PM, GSR 800 said:

A humble question for our livery scholars.

I am wondering about the specific livery for the modelled coach above. I have seen photos of these coaches, brand new, unlined in what should be dark green given the date, with their window frames in unpainted steel. No lining, no eau de nil to be seen! One of these photos is ex works, so possible lining simply hadn't been applied, but regardless others do not show the full, double-banded eau de nil lining and numbering.https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508722781/in/album-72157662268090968

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507832507/in/album-72157662268090968

 

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that these coaches were intended to run with the new AEC coaches, perhaps explaining their lack of an upper band?

Interestingly, seemingly without lining in 1947 apparently?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343/in/album-72157662268090968

And a pretty interesting picture in 1954, apparently Claremorris. Two different liveries, the far laminate appears to be in the lighter green with silver chassis and bogie! Closest coach, again appears to be in unlined dark green, though it could be dirt/poor exposure?

 

 

I'll have a go at answering this question, though I expect JHB will put me right.

The 1940s CIE dark green livery which seems to have been applied to many inherited coaches in the 1945-1950 period had quite complex lining. Looking from a distance there were two bands of eau-de-nil, but on close inspection these were bordered by more thin lines which I think were a different colour. 

These IRRS photos show the lining quite well:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509204070

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509036813

This photo of Ernie's shows the early green scheme in colour:

The coaches inherited by CIE in 1945 were mostly old panelled types and there weren't many modern flush-sided types, so we're more used to seeing the complex lining on older style coaches. But it was also applied to some of the flush-sided GSR and MGWR vehicles, like these:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093119

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509310165

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508957150

However, in the 1940s some of the 1930s flush-panelled GSR coaches seem to have been repainted in CIE green with snails but unlined:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165871

 

The first carriages built by CIE in the 1951-1953 period were on conventional welded truss underframes and GSR-style bogies. These were intended to run with the AEC railcars and comprised:

• Compartment Composites 2124-2129 (1951)
• Compartment Standards 1339-1350 (1951)
• Compartment Standards 1351-1355 (I think these were built at Dundalk?)
• Compartment Composites 2130-2136 (1952)
• Open Standards 1356-1371 (1953)
• Brake Standards 1908-1908 (1953)
• Buffet Cars 2405-2418 (1953-1954)

As you noted, this photo of 2135 when newly outshopped shows a livery of bright aluminium window surrounds but no lining or snails. The vehicle and class numbers have been applied though:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508722781

This bottom right corner of this photo is one of the compartment standards, either 1339-1350 or 1351-1355, which has a different window style but again is in unlined livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509198220

However, the later carriages in this group seem to have had lining at the waist, just a single thin line, and still no snails. Open standard 1365 and another, newly built:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507832507

Another open standard in service:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507581782/

Buffet 2408 in 1954:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509040109

My understanding is that all the above were in dark green, with black underframes.

 

After that, there was a significant design change, with the Bulleid triangulated underframes and commonwealth bogies introduced. 

This group included:

• Compartment Standards 1372-1378 (1954)
• Compartment Composites 2137-2161 (1954)
• Park Royal Open Standards 1379-1418 (1955)
• Park Royal Open Standards 1419-1428 (1956)

Composite 2146 in 1954 showing the same livery on the body - a single thin line at the waist and no snail. However the bogies and underframe are painted silver:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508672646

The coach on the left is one of the standards 1372-1378; the one on the right may be another composite 2137-2161:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253236973

The Park Royals emerged in this scheme too:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506776188

I think these were all still the darker green initially? Photos indicate that many/all of the Park Royals were outshopped in the darker green. Their waist line was slightly broader than most to suit the shape of the vehicle.

 

 

Then it all went silver! 

And after a while, reverted to green, but a lighter colour and with the snail reinstated.

But I think those periods are beyond the scope of the question.

[Mol_PMB]

It's also worth a look at Ernie's albums for this period, particularly the 1956 set:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157715532510616/

And some in the 1920s-1950s album:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157628303965777

The last few colour ones are 1959 so may be a bit late for your interests, but they are in colour which is nice.

[Ironroad]

23 hours ago, Mayner said:

The final batch of MGW coaches introduced in the 1920s were side corridor 60' vehicles similar roof profile to contemporary GSWR/GSR stock but half round beading & square cornered windows, supposedly the most comfortable 3rd Class coaches on the GSR.

Continuous footboards were fitted on the compartment side only, footboards only fitted at doorways on the gangway side.

 

If you can locate some Farish/Graham Farish OO Gauge "Main Line" coaches produced during the 70s & 80s are similar in general outline and window layout to the final batch of MGWR side corridor coaches built 1923-25 and a good 'generic' 1920s coach (apparrently 4 3rd Class & 4 1st-3rd Composite). https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/376398638208?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-172120-988740-8&mkcid=2&itemid=376398638208&targetid=325425753764&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9118386&poi=&campaignid=21479729684&mkgroupid=163598879926&rlsatarget=pla-325425753764&abcId=9484450&merchantid=494541900&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21479729684&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8fFNGybw-l_od2h21n33XV0&gclid=CjwKCAjw4efDBhATEiwAaDBpbmP5vpjkBXmU2lZV6eLaZGTSBCaTQK0e1x-KousPpJ7d7soLQIyKeRoCoDAQAvD_BwE

The Farish "Suburban" coaches are similar in general outline to GSR suburban stock (same Belgian 60' underframe as final MGW coaches) used on the Bray suburban services into early 1970(Black and tan livery)

Hi John, I have three old GF coaches in GWR livery that look similar to the coach in Southern livery you refer to. Do you know if they are the same, I'll be very happy if they are. Some currently on offer on ebay. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/405548808698?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-169260-534375-3&mkcid=2&keyword=&crlp=670833748941_&MT_ID=&geo_id=&rlsatarget=pla-325425753764&adpos=&device=c&mktype=pla&loc=1007850&poi=&abcId=&cmpgn=20488672762&sitelnk=&adgroupid=155578564071&network=g&matchtype=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20488672762&gbraid=0AAAAAo9ZJxsjVEzmTH-EZ6rp8AYtGP4Ma&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhO3DBhDkARIsANxrhTorHxz8J1vtAvNaYvJ2TxmpQO3M9sMsZMd_2jUsT2mEsQUHDJAYJYwaAvabEALw_wcB

and

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/187410410761?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D289260%2C288653%26meid%3D5348a819c2f34ae9ada35215f1d80d92%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D405548808698%26itm%3D187410410761%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2332490%26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRankerWithCassiniEmbRecall%26brand%3DGraham%2BFarish&_trksid=p2332490.c101224.m-1

many thanks Tom

[Northroader]

And you can get close ups in colour of the old green scheme here.

 

 

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Hi John, I have three old GF coaches in GWR livery that look similar to the coach in Southern livery you refer to. Do you know if they are the same, I'll be very happy if they are. Some currently on offer on ebay. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/405548808698?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-169260-534375-3&mkcid=2&keyword=&crlp=670833748941_&MT_ID=&geo_id=&rlsatarget=pla-325425753764&adpos=&device=c&mktype=pla&loc=1007850&poi=&abcId=&cmpgn=20488672762&sitelnk=&adgroupid=155578564071&network=g&matchtype=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20488672762&gbraid=0AAAAAo9ZJxsjVEzmTH-EZ6rp8AYtGP4Ma&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhO3DBhDkARIsANxrhTorHxz8J1vtAvNaYvJ2TxmpQO3M9sMsZMd_2jUsT2mEsQUHDJAYJYwaAvabEALw_wcB

and

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/187410410761?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D289260%2C288653%26meid%3D5348a819c2f34ae9ada35215f1d80d92%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D405548808698%26itm%3D187410410761%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2332490%26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRankerWithCassiniEmbRecall%26brand%3DGraham%2BFarish&_trksid=p2332490.c101224.m-1

many thanks Tom

Hi Tom

As far as I recall the old GF coaches were basically a generic coaches with the same body shell appearing in GWR, LMS, LNER & SR liveries. The MGW/GSW/GSR do not appear to have built main-line coaches with guards compartments (3rd, Composite, possibly 1st only) apparrently preferring to build a Full Brake (Bogie or 6w). I think the GSR built some non-gangwayed Brake End coaches for Bray suburban services during the late 20s similar in general outline to the Farish suburban coaches.  

Edited July 20 by Mayner

[Ironroad]

8 hours ago, Mayner said:

Hi Tom

As far as I recall the old GF coaches were basically a generic coaches with the same body shell appearing in GWR, LMS, LNER & SR liveries. The MGW/GSW/GSR do not appear to have built main-line coaches with guards compartments (3rd, Composite, possibly 1st only) apparrently preferring to build a Full Brake (Bogie or 6w). I think the GSR built some non-gangwayed Brake End coaches for Bray suburban services during the late 20s similar in general outline to the Farish suburban coaches.  

Hi John, much appreciated

[GSR 800]

On 19/7/2025 at 9:06 AM, Mol_PMB said:

It's also worth a look at Ernie's albums for this period, particularly the 1956 set:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157715532510616/

And some in the 1920s-1950s album:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157628303965777

The last few colour ones are 1959 so may be a bit late for your interests, but they are in colour which is nice.

Many thanks for the info Mol. I think I'll just go with a lower stripe on her then. This raises the question as to whether the PRs were ever in the dark green with the single stripe! 

Certainly looks like the PR is in the same dark green as the AEC in the last photo.

Some detailing and glazing added to the open coach.

I'll need a corridor and a buffet coach overlays from @Mayner to help complete to set!

Train so far. Bredin mail van, steel side and the open, hauled by Maedbh. The Mail van will get the full lining at some point. 

 

 

Edited July 20 by GSR 800

[Mol_PMB]

That train is looking great!

I agree that a single waist stripe is correct for your open standard as built. 

My belief is that the Park Royals were delivered in dark green with the single waist stripe and green ends. Silver underframe and bogies but those got dirty very quickly. 
Then at their first repaint they got light green with a single waist stripe and black ends. 
 

Another observation relates to the class numerals.
In the original dark green livery with multiple lines, all classes were marked with numerals 1 2 3 on the doors.

In the simpler dark green livery applied to the earlier CIE-built carriages, first class had 1 numerals on the doors, but second/standard class was usually not marked. 

Whereas in the silver livery and the light green livery, there were 2 numerals on standard class doors as well as 1 on the first. 
 

I haven’t proven this 100% and there were surely exceptions to the rule, but it may be a useful guide to the shade of green in monochrome photos. 

Edited July 20 by Mol_PMB

[Mol_PMB]

I suppose key dates are when CIE abolished the 3-class system, and when third was re-designated second. I haven’t found definitive dates for those changes but it would have been 1950s.

I think this railcar has a 3 class indication on the rear door in 1953:

Whereas the 1959 photos have a 2 class on the railcars:

Shades of green are so variable in photos! I find them hard to interpret especially if there were supposed to only be two shades of green. 

 

 

[Galteemore]

Fabulous effort. Really picks up on the variety which characterised 50s trains in Ireland. Coronation Scot-style corporate cohesion it was not….

[Mol_PMB]

An update on the classes and designations after a bit of searching online and in the library.

I think that in southern Ireland the 3-class system was dropped before the formation of CIE, so that in 1945 there was just first and third.

• Coaches inherited by CIE and repainted into the more complex dark green livery with waist and cantrail lining ought to have class designations on all doors, reading 1 or 3. Also these normally had snails. There were still plenty of older coaches in this livery around in the mid-1950s. 
• Some inherited coaches were painted into a simplified unlined dark green livery, they may or may not have had class designations and snails.

 

• The earlier coaches built by CIE in 1951/1952 were dark green, no lining, no snail, with a 1 on first class doors, but no other class designations.
• Those built in 1953/1954 were the same but with a narrow line at the waist, no snail, with a 1 on first class doors, but no other class designations.
• The AEC railcars were delivered in this scheme but did have third class 3 designations on the doors as well as first class 1.
• Carriages built in 1954/1955 on the triangulated underframe with commonwealth bogies (including Park Royals) were the same livery as the 1953/1954 coaches, but had silver bogies and underframes.

 

Third Class was redesignated Second Class on 3rd June 1956, the same date as in the UK.

Some coaches may have been outshopped with 2 designations on the doors a little in advance of the official changeover, this photo is dated 2 weeks prior:

AEC railcar 2646 seen here only a few days after the class redesignation already carries 2 numerals:

Coaches weren't all repainted overnight, and this interesting photo dated September 1956 shows the first vehicle with 1 and 2 on the doors. Note that the 1s have been there a while and are weathered, whereas the 2s are freshly added:

Meanwhile the second vehicle is still in the 1940s livery with 1s and 3s on the doors (and snails). 

Same date in September 1956, note the Park Royals on the right, one of which has received a 2 but the other hasn't:

So it looks like some carriages had the 2s added to their existing paint job, and therefore 2s could be seen on dark green coaches:

 

So, regardless of the exact year in the 1950s you're modelling, I think your Bredin composite with the waist and cantrail lines needs some 1 and 3 class numerals and some snails. 

Your open standard can needs a thin waist line but doesn't need class numerals or snails.

 

 

This photo is cropped from page 4 of Keith Pirt Colour Portfolio (an excellent album - highly recommended) It dates from 1961, so a later period, but I think it shows most clearly the contrast in green liveries on Park Royals. 

The leading coach is freshly-painted light green with black ends, 2 class designations on the doors. Note that the window frames have been painted green. The second coach is the same, but a bit weathered.

The fourth coach is is much darker green, despite being at the same angle to the sun and not in shade - we can see the sunlight glinting off the opening toplights of the windows. They would glint, because when the Park Royals entered service in dark green these toplights were left unpainted, as seen in the two of Ernie's photos immediately above this one, and also shown in the brand new photo: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506776188

When new they also had dark green ends, again the same three photos prove this.

 

So for the Park Royals, I am convinced that the following variants existed in the green period:

1. Dark green on sides and ends, unpainted aluminium window toplights. Eau-de-nil waist line. No class designation on doors. Silver underframe and bogies (got dirty quickly).
2. Dark green on sides and ends, unpainted aluminium window toplights. Eau-de-nil waist line. 2 class designation added on doors. Silver underframe and bogies (got dirty quickly).
3. Light green on sides including window toplights. Eau-de-nil waist line. 2 class designation on doors. Black ends with dimension plates picked out in red. Underframe and bogies may have been painted black or just left dirty.

There may have been other variants as well. At some stage in the late 1950s the doors were modified which might create further variants.

 

It is not clear from the Accurascale website which shade(s) of green they are using. The only green decorated sample I've seen is light green with black ends, which is in accordance with the first 2 coaches in the image above except it is lacking the 2 class designations on the doors. Are the model coaches with green ends a darker shade? We shall see...

 

Edited July 20 by Mol_PMB
corrected copy and paste error