GSR industrial siding in Dublin

[Wheelslip]

Hello all, 

I've recently been thinking about building my first proper layout. My only previous experience was a basic tabletop oval 10+ years ago. As a way of starting off I've decided to plan a small 00 gauge layout to fit on an IKEA Lack floating shelf (260mm x 1100mm). My idea is to have a GSR era (late 30s/early 40s in particular) industrial siding set in Dublin, inspired by the North City and Clonliffe flour mills. 

Time and money are a bit of an issue for me at the moment so this project could easily stay at the planning stage for quite a while. But for now I thought I'd ask what rolling stock is available that would be fairly historically accurate for a layout of this era and location? 

Edited Wednesday at 13:16 by Wheelslip

[Flying Snail]

Hi Wheelslip and welcome onboard!

In terms of RTR industrial stock there isn't much I'm afraid. If you went forward into the 50's you'd have plenty of IRM Bulleid wagons to choose from, and you would be able to pick up one of their green or grey A class locos second hand.

For wagons from the GSR period, you'd need to look to kits from the likes of Studio Scale Models (see their GSWR and MGWR convertible wagons) and Provincial Models (they've a few brake vans alongside some GNR wagons). @leslie10646 is the man behind Provincial Models and his kits are easy to put together - especially if you ever tried the likes of an airfix kit.

For a locomotive - this is more challenging: you're looking at kits too or repaints of UK outline. IRM do have an 800 in GSR livery on the way, but she would have been doing top-line passenger work in the GSR period.

Edit: OO Works did a GSR 101 (J15) class that would work well if you could find one second hand, but they are hand-built and not cheap!

Edited Wednesday at 14:20 by Flying Snail

[Ironroad]

This from Mayner (John Mayner-JMDesigns) would probably fit the bill very nicely but I don't know if he is still producing them.

[Mol_PMB]

@Mayner's 3D-printed wagons are excellent and include some suitable for your proposed period, but may no longer be available.

 

If you have a bit of experience of kit-building, then the resin-cast kits for GNR goods vans from @leslie10646 can also be built as GSR or MGWR variants and would fit the bill very well. But again, I'm not sure whether they are still readily available.

@Bob49 produces simple 3D-printed kits for GNR 4-plank and 6-plank opens which can also be completed as GSR or MGWR variants:

It all depends on how accurate you want to be. At first glance some of the wagons above look very similar to 1930s era British wagons which are widely available RTR and could be repainted into GSR livery quite easily. 

Lots of goods vans is really what you need, and there was a fair variety. Although this photo of Ernie's is from the 1960s, many of the vans in that train on the right are from the 1930s or earlier:

 

[Wheelslip]

Many thanks @Flying Snail @Ironroad and @Mol_PMB for your helpful replies. I am keen on sticking to the steam era but those Bulleid wagons would fit in nicely if I wanted to extend the era later into the 50s. For earlier wagons I'd definitely like to have a go at some kits if available, but I'd also be happy to repaint some British style wagons so it's good to know I have that option as well. 

I'm not sure if I'd trust myself at any locomotive kits for the time being, but I might manage to repaint an Irish-looking British loco, would anyone have a recommendation for that?

[Galteemore]

12 minutes ago, Wheelslip said:

Many thanks @Flying Snail @Ironroad and @Mol_PMB for your helpful replies. I am keen on sticking to the steam era but those Bulleid wagons would fit in nicely if I wanted to extend the era later into the 50s. For earlier wagons I'd definitely like to have a go at some kits if available, but I'd also be happy to repaint some British style wagons so it's good to know I have that option as well. 

I'm not sure if I'd trust myself at any locomotive kits for the time being, but I might manage to repaint an Irish-looking British loco, would anyone have a recommendation for that?

Hornby J15 isn’t far off. Stick a smokebox wheel on it and flying snail on tender and you’re well away. It will pass for a generic Irish 0-6-0. Try and get one in LNER livery as that won’t have a smokebox numberplate. 

Edited Wednesday at 20:01 by Galteemore

[Flying Snail]

Bachmann N class is another - its showing its age now (nice model but its not designed for DCC). 26 of these SECR locos were exported to Ireland (K1 and K1a class). Bachmann also released them in CIE liveries. Getting your hands on a UK livery to repaint should be easy enough.

Edited Wednesday at 20:06 by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

This is a Bachmann GWR goods van which bears a pretty good resemblance to some built by the GSWR just prior to being grouped into the GSR. The ends and the brake gear are a bit different, but put some GS transfers on the side it wouldn't look out of place.  

 

[Mol_PMB]

A couple of photos from Ernie's excellent albums on Flickr - this one shows the GS livery on goods vans quite clearly:

This is 1950s but most of the vans are 1930s or earlier - plenty of variety:

 

[leslie10646]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

@Mayner's 3D-printed wagons are excellent and include some suitable for your proposed period, but may no longer be available.

 

If you have a bit of experience of kit-building, then the resin-cast kits for GNR goods vans from @leslie10646 can also be built as GSR or MGWR variants and would fit the bill very well. But again, I'm not sure whether they are still readily available.

 

 

 

 

 

Just to say that my GNR vans ARE still available. I should have a supply at Blackrock in a month's time.

[Ironroad]

Does anyone know of an existing model that is any way close to "Sambo". It is highly probable that this loco worked the North City Mills, and ideal for a diorama.

[David Holman]

If you want steam era, then going for a set of private springs might be the answer. There are several very nice rtr industrial locos available and even without a repaint, it would be a start, especially when used with some of the wagons mentioned above. Early industrial diesels like the Ruston 48 or 88 would fit the bill too. 

 There is a useful rule that suggests the longest train you run should be no more that a third of the length of the scenic space on your layout. 1100mm = no more than 400mm maximum, so a small shunting engine and three or four wagons will be better than a mainline engine and only one or two wagons.

 Keep an eye on the usual second hand websites for bargains and while you are accumulating stock, play around with designs and have a go at making some buildings to set the scene. It is all part of getting creative.

[Flying Snail]

58 minutes ago, David Holman said:

 There is a useful rule that suggests the longest train you run should be no more that a third of the length of the scenic space on your layout. 1100mm = no more than 400mm maximum, so a small shunting engine and three or four wagons will be better than a mainline engine and only one or two wagons.

Yes, the Bachmann N may be on the long side for this layout ... but it is one of the more prototypically accurate. None of the UK RTRs, including it, are spot on though ..... and layouts are meant to be used - so finding a small shunter that's close enough is probably the better option. It'll be cheaper too 

[Horsetan]

10 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Does anyone know of an existing model that is any way close to "Sambo". It is highly probable that this loco worked the North City Mills, and ideal for a diorama.

I think you'll struggle with this one - there's nothing RTR that's remotely close to "Sambo".

You might be able to produce a hybrid version from various RTR bits, though. I'm not aware of any reliable drawings since the real thing was itself an ad-hoc hybrid of old parts.

The saddle tank itself looks close to the one on the very old Hornby "Caley Pug" (which was oversized), so a cheap body shell could give you a start. The footplate could be derived from the old Hornby GNR J13 tank, maybe with some repositioning of splashers.

Not sure which RTR model would provide smokebox boiler and firebox - "Sambo" is quite unique in this respect. Likewise the cab is a mish-mash.

Here's some bare dimensions:

0-4-2ST....
Sambo Number 842 (not carried) Class L2: 1914
Constructed from spare parts and used as Inchicore pilot. 4ft 6½in coupled wheels, 16 x 20in cylinders, .... 

The only RTR 0-4-2T chassis are those for the GWR 14xx, which is too long for Sambo, plus the wheels are too big.

Edited Thursday at 10:24 by Horsetan

[Northroader]

If you’re after ideas for a small industrial layout, you can do something boxfile size, which keep costs right down, trackwork and rolling stock, but give you some operating fun, until you want to upsize, or maybe build another. 
Useful ideas in here:

https://micromodelrailwaydispatch.com

A good example by a fine modeller on this site:

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 10:12 by Northroader

[skinner75]

What about the Dapol Sentinel 4 wheel steam shunter that was released a few years back? It was released in several liveries too. 

Perfect as a small shunter on a small layout, as it was the same size as a wagon

Old thread on it here:
https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/164-dapol-sentinel/

Edited Thursday at 10:19 by skinner75

[Galteemore]

26 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

What was that little 4 wheel steam shunter that was released a few years back? It was released in several liveries too. 

Perfect as a small shunter on a small layout, as it was the same size as a wagon

Hornby Peckett is also a very small and characterful loco. Not far off one that the GSR had, either. 

Edited Thursday at 10:41 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

Some small GSR conversions that come to mind

you could take a railroad J72 and try and turn it into a GSWR J10 by chopping off the cab and replacing it with an ivatt style one 

 

not the greatest detail wise but I have GSWR 90 done using a terrier chassis and a 3D printed shell 

 

the GSR had an 0-4-0 peckett on there books, purchased from the allmans whiskey Company in 1930. Don’t think it left cork though! Horny make it and all you’d need for it to be prototypical is buy the works green version, weather it, and slap plates on either side.
 

there is a beautiful RTR J24 model out there from 00 works. but it’s very expensive, no DCC, prone to failure (mine has twice). Also never left cork area as far as I know either 

 

A freind of mine and myself are still working on a completely 3D printed Bandon Tank. But thats nowhere near ready for running. 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:39 by Westcorkrailway

[jhb171achill]

I'm a bit late to this party, but here goes:

1.  I agree there is no model remotely like "Sambo", but I actually doubt it did go to the mills - I think it was confined to Inchicore Works. I'd be interested to know if it definitely did ever go anywhere else.

2.  00 Works J15, yes. LNER 0.6.0, yes. In the latter case, repainted grey. If you are in GSR times, no black locos and no green ones - every single loco they posessed was plain grey all over, no flying snails either - they only came with CIE in 1945. Cast cabside numberplates, no painted numbers (apart from a handful of suburban passenger tanks).

3.  Small industrial-type loco, certainly - I had thought of that too. There were an extremely small number of things like that in reality - Allmans Distillery, Bandon, for one. The little engine of that line ended up being bought by the GSR who slapped a standard numberplate on it, but never repainted it, so it ended its days in barely recognisable badly faded delivery-colour manufacturer's green. (An exception to the grey rule!).

4.  Wagons - yes, leslie's are the best option. CIE "H" vans, nice as they are, far too late for GSR era. I have three of the SSM ones - they would be fine, in reality.

Overall, I think your era is an excellent one and a great way to start.

[Galteemore]

Rapido SECR 0-6-0 in grey might work - only need repaint smokebox ! 

Edited Thursday at 17:27 by Galteemore

[Ironroad]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

1.  I agree there is no model remotely like "Sambo", but I actually doubt it did go to the mills - I think it was confined to Inchicore Works. I'd be interested to know if it definitely did ever go anywhere else.

Hi Jonathan, If Sambo didn't venture beyond Inchicore, where would a loco shunting the sidings at the Nth City Mills have come from? Maybe the Midland yard and if  so do you know what where they using there before diesel?  Additionally which shed would it have been stabled at, Broadstone or Inchicore? Thanks Tom

[Wheelslip]

16 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Hi Jonathan, If Sambo didn't venture beyond Inchicore, where would a loco shunting the sidings at the Nth City Mills have come from? Maybe the Midland yard and if  so do you know what where they using there before diesel?  Additionally which shed would it have been stabled at, Broadstone or Inchicore? Thanks Tom

There's a photo in IRRS Journal 131 of a J26 at the North City Mills in 1955.

[Wheelslip]

Many many thanks to everyone who has replied! it's fantastic to have such a helpful and knowledgeable group of people to whom I can ask questions! And it's great that there's a few options for locos and wagons that would be relatively historically accurate for my layout. I think those kits of @leslie10646 will be top of my list.

Could anyone recommend what websites/places exactly would be best for finding second hand stock?

[Galteemore]

9 minutes ago, Wheelslip said:

Many many thanks to everyone who has replied! it's fantastic to have such a helpful and knowledgeable group of people to whom I can ask questions! And it's great that there's a few options for locos and wagons that would be relatively historically accurate for my layout. I think those kits of @leslie10646 will be top of my list.

Could anyone recommend what websites/places exactly would be best for finding second hand stock?

Go to local shows/swapmeets like Bray (assuming you’re Dublin based). EBay and adverts.ie are another one. Look around online and you’ll get an idea of what’s a fair price. 

Edited Thursday at 19:01 by Galteemore

[Wheelslip]

Thanks @Galteemore!

[jhb171achill]

47 minutes ago, Wheelslip said:

Thanks @Galteemore!

Also, seek out WRENNEIRE of this parish. He can help you with just about any model under the sun.

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Rapido SECR 0-6-0 in grey might work - only need repaint smokebox ! 

A bit more than that - grey far too light, and black roof and number on tender need to go too. Easy, though - simply repaint the entire thing, bar the red buffer beams, in a dark grey and put cabside number PLATES on, and hey presto - GSR.

[Mayner]

Hi Wheelslip.

I just about remember seeing wagons (all vans) at North City Mills as a kid during the late 60s, usually in my fathers car at Cross Guns bridge on our way to visit my Grandfathers (an engine driver) grave at Glasinevin Cemetery. My grandather bought a plot where the Midland passed over the GSWR line so he could whistle to his wife as he drove past on a loco, needless to say I was more interested in the railways than my grandparents. The North City Mills was abandoned and lifted when I explored the area as a teenager in the mid 70s

North City Mill would make an excellent model in a compact space with its combination of stone mill buildings, retaining walls canal, bridges and abandoned canal boats. 

The 1960s era probabably best option for modelling the Mill with RTR locos and stock (IRM Bulleid H Vans, MM B141 & B121 Black and Tan diesels (possibly a grey B121, railtraffic seems to have ceased by the early 70s, possibly some of Leslies Provincial Wagons GN Vans (an "Irish Standard' design) also used by the Midland and GSR some of which lasted into the late 60s. The small B121,B141 GMs potentially a better option than the larger A /Ar Class for shunting the Mill, unfortunately no suitable rtr CIE shunting locos are available, though Silver Fox do a G601-3 Class not strictly correct as CIE used the slightly more modern G613 Class (vaccum brakes and different style of cab windows) as LiffeyJunction Pilot loco at one stage during the 1960s, the Silver Fox G uses a Tenshodo motor bogie which is not great at low speeds needed for a shunting loco.

Possibly a Hornby Ruston Diesel or Peckett steam loco based on the scenario of Ranks/North City Mills providing its own shunting loco.

The GSR/Steam would be more challenging and would involve an element of modifying rtr models, kit or scratchbuilding depending on how far you want to go or whether you have a greater preference for getting something up and running quickly or model making. In steam days the Mill was likely to have been shunted by MGWR tank locos and their Standard Goods. During GSR/CIE days steam locos appear to have largely stuck to their own territory.

A J26 appears to have been the final Liffey Junction shunting/pilot loco until replaced by a G611 during the early 60s

The BachmannJ72 and Hornby J83 are probabably the closest RTR British outline models in terms of size and general outline to the ex-MGWR J26 (small tanks) and J10 (Banking) Tank the modifications involve a considerable amount of work!. Eoin (ECM)  Inchacore Class J10 conversion (actually looks closer to a J26) covered the conversion of the older Mainline (Palitoy) model gives an indication of the level of cosmetic work involved, but a replacement chassis unlikely to be required in converting the current Bachmann model. The Hornby Railroad J83 looks closer in size and outline to the J10 tanks used for heavy shunting and banking duties in the area. 

SSM produce an etched kit of the  Small Midland Tank MGWR E GSR/CIE J26 but potentially challenging as a first attempted at a brass kit and based on a model of the loco in as-built MGWR condition up toaround 1912. 

Ironically O Gauge is probabably a better option for attempting a model of North City Mills using kit built locos and stock as Alphagraphix  produce relatively straightfoirward to assemble models of the ex-MGWR Standard Goods J19 and Small Tank J26, check out David Holman's & Galtemores threads on building compact O Gauge layouts and kit/scratch building locos and stock including Alphagrapkix kits.

At the end of the day the distinctive combination of canal and mill structures at Clonliffe and North City Mills would make quite distinctive models (a distinctive part of Dublins Inductrial heritage) in their own right and the trains less significant in terms of the overall model compared to say a model of a station or goods yard.

[Horsetan]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

...SSM produce an etched kit of the  Small Midland Tank MGWR E GSR/CIE J26 but potentially challenging as a first attempted at a brass kit and based on a model of the loco in as-built MGWR condition up toaround 1912....

Possible to extend to the later period if you borrow certain castings from the SSM J15 kit, I think.

[Galteemore]

Another vote for O gauge. Can acquire small locos for a reasonable price nowadays - not that much more than OO. A Dapol Sentinel or Minerva Peckett will look well and have a real presence. You can use Slaters kits as a way to acquire some generic vans - just stick a big G S on the doors! 

[skinner75]

O gauge not really suited to 260mm x 1100mm though is it?

[Galteemore]

24 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

O gauge not really suited to 260mm x 1100mm though is it?

You’d be surprised who has managed it. Small loco with a few wagons and a traverser gives you a nice little layout. This is Colin French’s layout that I snapped a few years ago at Kettering Gauge O Guild show.

Edited yesterday at 11:50 by Galteemore

[Northroader]

Ticks all the boxes.

[Wheelslip]

Thanks a million @Mayner! The North City Mills is indeed a fantastic location and I hope I'll be able to do it justice. I intend to use this project as an introduction to the various skills that go into modelling so needing to modify or kitbuild some rolling stock would actually be ideal for me. A steam-era layout also appeals to me more than diesel so I feel I'd be more likely to stay motivated to work on it.

[Wheelslip]

Would anyone be able to point me towards photos of either the North City/Clonliffe mills or some other similar site in Ireland? Would contacting the IRRS Archive be my best option?

[Galteemore]

Worth joining IRRS for access to photo archive. I did a quick search and there are a few pics of North City Mills in there.