The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[jhb171achill]

Now that's neat, Glenderg!

[jhb171achill]

Anything's possible in la-la land! :-)

[jhb171achill]

An obscure set of papers in the Isle of Man archive outlines very brief details suggesting that one time the short and short-lived Belfast Central Railway toyed with setting down dual gauge track, with an eye to the extension of a possibly proposed Ulster-based 3ft gauge system of possibly up to 200 miles in length.

 

This is distinct from the once-proposed (and nearly started!) Ulster & Connaught Railway.

 

Anyone know where this was meant to go, presumably from Belfast? I've never heard of it, but the mention of it goes back to the 1890s.

[Mayner]

An obscure set of papers in the Isle of Man archive outlines very brief details suggesting that one time the short and short-lived Belfast Central Railway toyed with setting down dual gauge track, with an eye to the extension of a possibly proposed Ulster-based 3ft gauge system of possibly up to 200 miles in length.

 

This is distinct from the once-proposed (and nearly started!) Ulster & Connaught Railway.

 

 

Anyone know where this was meant to go, presumably from Belfast? I've never heard of it, but the mention of it goes back to the 1890s.

 

The Belfast Central scheme was mentioned in E M Patterson's "Ballymena Lines" The BCR obtained an Act to build a 3' gauge line to Ardoyne, a separate company the Ballyclare, Ligoneil and Belfast Junction obtained an Act to extend the line from Ardoyne to Doagh possibly linking up with the Ballymena & Larne narrow gauge.

 

Not to be outdone the Londonderry and Larne Railway had plans for a line from Ballymena through Portglenone across the Sperrin Mountains through Dungiven and Claudy to Derry City. This could have opened up the prospect of Fish Trains from Burtonport to Larne

[jhb171achill]

That must be it, Mayner; interesting and worth researching.

 

On of the BCR directors was in communication with the then-new Isle of Man Railway. Possibly they were swopping ideas. there was never any formal communication, as such, as far as is known.

 

A layout showing either Cork's Albert Street CBPR terminus with 3ft gauge city commuter trains on a double track line, or a potential 3ft gauge terminus adjacent (probably) to Belfast GVS would be interesting. A narrow gauge line up through Ardoyne would have had some savage gradients, and given the long distance to Burtonport, a large fleet of LLSR tender-like locos would have been necessary for goods. What of passenger trains? A sort of narrow-gauge "Jeep" or NCC 3ft gauge compound? NCC-style bogie carriages like those on the B & L line would be needed.....

 

Probably bogie goods stock at an early stage.

 

And the UTA would have shut the entire lot in pretty short order...

[GSR 800]

A 141 in grey slate livery?

[jhb171achill]

A 141 in NIR maroon, had they listened in 1968/9 to engineering people instead of buying the "Hunslets" for political reasons?

 

That was actually a possibility, and one preferred by their loco people as the Hunslets turned out to be a bad buy, underpowered for what they were required to do.

[Railer]

A 141 in grey slate livery?

 

The 201s in either the 071 freight livery or the new slate livery would look really good on them I reckon. Better than the MK4 IC livery.

[jhb171achill]

I think the silver and black would have suited a 201 better than an 071.....

 

Often wondered if buses would have looked well in black'n'tan!

[jhb171achill]

In the late 1920s, the GSR still had all its narrow gauge lines. With the exception of the suburban (and double tracked) Cork, Blackrock & Passage line, all were rural.

 

Carriage stock ranged from the primitive box-like 4-wheelers on the Schull & Skibbereen, to the well appointed compartment stock of the CBPR, the lengthy majestic but spartan bogies on the Cavan & Leitrim and the austere but solidly built West Clare six-wheelers.

 

Loading gauges varied hugely, the S & S having the smallest.

 

Against this background, the GSR proposed to build a new series of standard styled narrow gauge carriages. Drawings were prepared but have not survived. It is believed that they would have ended upon unlike the late (1958) rebuild of C & L No. 1, ie bogie stock with ran lime longitudinal seating inside, and enclosed end vestibules. Had they been built, they would have been used on the West Clare, Tralee & Dingle (possibly) and Cavan & Leitrim. The three Cork systems were soon after to go to the scrapping list.

[GSR 800]

A 141 in NIR maroon, had they listened in 1968/9 to engineering people instead of buying the "Hunslets" for political reasons?

 

That was actually a possibility, and one preferred by their loco people as the Hunslets turned out to be a bad buy, underpowered for what they were required to do.

Could NIR have taken a leaf from CIE's book and rebuild the Hunslets with GM engines?

[jhb171achill]

I doubt it, though I suppose it's possible. For just three locos, they'd have been better buying three new ones from GM. The 181 class were only three years old then.

[Mayner]

A 141 in NIR maroon, had they listened in 1968/9 to engineering people instead of buying the "Hunslets" for political reasons?

 

That was actually a possibility, and one preferred by their loco people as the Hunslets turned out to be a bad buy, underpowered for what they were required to do.

 

 

I don't think anyone at the time on CIE or NIR could see the need for considerably more powerful locomotives. Like the Midland Railway in the early 1900s CIEs plans in the early 70s were based on a fast frequent train service with a small number of uprated 001 Class uprated for Dublin-Tralee trains.

 

This policy unravelled following the 1st oil crisis double heading and more powerful locos required to keep time with less frequent, heavier trains as traffic increased with fewer people emigrating.

 

The Hunslets make sense against the loadings at the time, the locos were similar in H.P.and tractive effort to the rebuilt A Class.

 

The idea of Top & Tail working may have been based on the Edinburgh-Glasgow services of the same era where MK2 coaches topped and tailed by Class 27 locos replaced railcar services.

 

The NIR management did well to convince their political masters of the need for the new train and that rail had a future. The introduction of the Enterprise and re-opening of the Belfast Central Line was a real turning point in the history of the railways in Northern Ireland.

[jhb171achill]

True, Mayner, but the engineering heads within NIR advised purchase of several new 141 / 181 types, one reason being proven reliability and proximity of Inchicore expertise, but their masters had other ideas.

[jhb171achill]

As late as 1930, the Lough Swilly & Co Donegal were considering amalgamation. While this would probably have had little effect overall due to joint lack of money - in fact, might have hastened the demise if the whole lot, can we imagine a Walker railcar taking us from Strabane to Burtonport?

 

Or a link from Pennyburn to Victoria Road in Derry?

[minister_for_hardship]

As late as 1930, the Lough Swilly & Co Donegal were considering amalgamation. While this would probably have had little effect overall due to joint lack of money - in fact, might have hastened the demise if the whole lot, can we imagine a Walker railcar taking us from Strabane to Burtonport?

 

Or a link from Pennyburn to Victoria Road in Derry?

 

The Swilly was looking for a loan of a CDR loco around the time of the War of Independence, the Donegal declined, fearing their loco would end up derailed and stuck in a bog somewhere.

IIRC there were through CDR excursions onto Swilly metals, think they were for pilgrimages?

[jhb171achill]

That sort of thing, yes. Through goods wagons as well. Only certain vehicles from one system could access the other, as the two companies' couplings were different heights!

[minister_for_hardship]

That sort of thing, yes. Through goods wagons as well. Only certain vehicles from one system could access the other, as the two companies' couplings were different heights!

 

Did NG railways not have to adhere to RCH wagon/rolling stock standards, or unlike standard/broad gauge railways, they could they pick and choose what stock specs they wanted? Since they both had the'chopper' type, it wouldn't be a big deal to have a standard height for these?

Edited November 6, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[Garfield]

Only certain vehicles from one system could access the other, as the two companies' couplings were different heights!

 

A handy 'prototype for everything' reference for modellers constantly battling with variations in NEM pocket heights...

[Old Blarney]

Talking of Irish railway amalgamations - What if?

 

What about the thought that the GNR(I) and the DSER had succeeded in their discussions to amalgamate their railways prior to the formation of the GSR?

 

Had this proposal come to fruition there may not have been any Drumm Trains, on the other hand, the amalgamated concerns may have built additional railcars of the type used by the GNR on Dublin and Belfast suburban services; D,E,F and G. The additional railcars to serve the expanded Dublin Suburban Services.

 

Alternatively, might the GNR have considered electrifying the Dublin Suburban System from - Balbriggan and Howth to Bray or possibly Greystones and on to Harcourt Street? This being the case it is possible the Harcourt Street line would have remained open.

 

All sorts of possibilities spring to mind! T2's to Bray or even through trains from Balbriggan or Drogheda to Wexford!

 

Am I correct in saying there was a proposal that the GNR electrify their Suburban lines in both Belfast and Dublin?

[minister_for_hardship]

What if the D&KR's lead had been taken up (or the D&DR and UR had been forced to regauge to 4' 8 1/2'' instead of 5'3'') and all the standard gauge railways ended up actually "standard gauge".

 

Imagine there would have been many more purchases of second-hand British stock and maybe a few continental interlopers.

[jhb171achill]

The standardised coupling arrangements (today, we've regressed!) didn't apply to the narrow gauge. Not only were the couplings a good 10 inches or so different in height (LLSR ones higher), but no two narrow gauge lines across the country had the same loading gauge. Schull & Skibbereen stock was only six feet wide, whereas Ballycastle stuff and Donegal stuff were almost 50% wider - and a good bit higher. And yet, almost all narrow gauge lines (the Cork and Muskerry and Bessbrook & Newry being exceptions) used the standard chopper coupling.

 

An amalgamation of the GNR and DSER would indeed have been interesting - blue 4.4.0s round Bray Head would probably have provided the single most photogenic railway scene on the island! Hard to know about the Harcourt Street line, as it was CIE who closed it, but you could be sure the articulated GNR Gardner railcars would have had many outings there. They'd have needed a new works, possibly, as neither Dundalk nor Grand Canal Street would have been enough. Maybe they'd have concentrated locos at one location, carriages at another.

 

I'm unaware of any definite plans to electrify anything GNR, though it's possible there was unofficial consideration given.

 

If we had ended up "standard" gauge, cue an influx of clapped out British stuff, like the Isle of Wight! While it would have meant that we never heard a 141, or classes 071, A, B, C, D, E or G, and we never had De Dietrichs or Darts, MGWR six wheelers or the like, it would have made modelling Irish railways a lot easier, as we'd just have to repaint ex-LMS or GWR stuff, readily available in all shapes and forms from Messrs Hornby and the like.

Edited November 6, 2015 by jhb171achill

[Garfield]

I'm unaware of any definite plans to electrify anything GNR, though it's possible there was unofficial consideration given.

 

JB, Donal Murray had a couple of very interesting articles regarding the GNR's investigations into dieselisation and electrification in New Irish Lines a number of years ago. It seems they definitely went to the extent of approaching locomotive manufacturers to submit designs, as he was able to produce a number of line drawings based on ones he found in archives!

[jhb171achill]

Interesting, Garfield..... I certainly know there was lots of coming and going re Dundalk seeking quotations and information from manufacturers both in the UK and on "mainland" Europe.

[jhb171achill]

The Dublin & Meath Railway planned to build a line at least as far as Cookstown, Co Tyrone at one time, possibly to the north coast. The GNR thwarted it and it ended at Kingscourt, though the original idea for this to be a through station is obvious from the track layout. Equally, the GNR intend it's Carrickmacross line to go further - not sure where to.

 

So, with the MGWR inheriting a line way up north, deep into GNR and possibly even NCC territory, and the GNR looking into MGWR territory, an amalgamation between the two might have been a runner at one time.

 

What would that have looked like? What would have happened after the creation of the border in 1921? How would Stormont and Leinster House have dealt with it in the 1950s, if it wasn't initially (or at all) to become part of CIE and UTA?

 

Ex MGWR J18s on the goods through Castlewellan into Newcastle, and blue 4.4.0s on the Clifden line?

 

With the SLNCR having the same company at both ends, would it have become part of it all? What about train services - expresses from Broadstone via Cavan to Enniskillen and Derry?

[Mayner]

The MGWR and GNR amalgamating is an interesting one opening up the possibility of greater competition between Belfast and Dublin for cattle traffic from the Midlands and West to either Belfast or Dublin and competition with the GSWR for freight traffic to Limerick.

 

Amalgamation of the two companies and take over the SLNCR would have opened up the prospect of through Belfast & Sligo passenger services, extending the Belfast-Cavan passenger trains to Mullingar.

 

A bit like the LNER woks at Doncaster and Darlington it would have made sense to let Broadstone and Dundalk continue overhauling and re-building existing classes until larger more powerful locos were needed.

 

Amalgamating with the MGWR would have probably strengthened the financial position of the GNR and put off the question of nationalisation for a few years. The GNR was in a worse financial position than the GSR in the 1930s, the MGWR lines from Dublin to Galway, Westport and Sligo were likely to have been more profitable, than the GNR Derry Road and Cross Country lines in Northern Ireland, operating in a monopoly position with heavy livestock traffic and a much longer line haul

[minister_for_hardship]

 

If we had ended up "standard" gauge, cue an influx of clapped out British stuff, like the Isle of Wight! While it would have meant that we never heard a 141, or classes 071, A, B, C, D, E or G, and we never had De Dietrichs or Darts, MGWR six wheelers or the like, it would have made modelling Irish railways a lot easier, as we'd just have to repaint ex-LMS or GWR stuff, readily available in all shapes and forms from Messrs Hornby and the like.

 

Yes, we could have become a dumping ground, the SL&NC and other cash-strapped lines could have an influx of woebegone British rolling stock.

 

Perhaps a train ferry, or ferries?? Or British companies having more of a stake in Ireland a la Midland Railway/LMS and its NCC offshoot.

Edited November 9, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[Vellakare]

It's impossible to say really, I was looking at the 'what might have been thread, have this:

 

I wonder what you'll think:

 

I too like to theorise on alternate timelines. It related to the development of the GNR Diesel Locomotive fleet. As you may be aware, it was constrained by the size of Dundalk Locomotive works, so they needed a 1,000hp B-B Diesel Hydraulic with a 15tonne (60 tonne total) weight, with a length of 39 feet (*12 meters). It was also to be Double ended, designed for mixed traffic usage.

 

It looks like one of those odd things with Ireland in that it is a broad gauge railway system, with narrow gauge axle load tolerances, even on something that I thought was reasonably well built, such as much of the Great Northern. That actually does not look like it was the case, and consequently explains its early closure in 1957.

 

There's only really one kind of machine that fits the bill, and it's in Thailand, built around 1964.

 

So if anyone wants to fire away and post what I've said, or speak to the other former users at IRN and what not, tell them what I've found.

 

As for what survives, we will always wonder about 'what might have been' when it comes to the big swathe of closures that occurred in 1957/1965. If it's got lots of level crossings, switchback gradients and speed restrictions galore, it just won't make it into the 1970s. Portadown to Derry MIGHT, but when it closed it was in the same condition as the Sligo or Rosslare lines in the 1990s. Portadown to Enniskillen, Enniskillen to Omagh can. The rest .....axed.

 

This rather compact neat looking machine could be the Great Northerns Mainline Diesel Hydraulic. What would it become under CIÉ? A 241 perhaps? Like other Diesel Hydraulics, I doubt it would last 20 years.

 

http://gallery.rotfaithai.com/categories.php?cat_id=25&sessionid=l3v2mmi7ps5b58l7ipgrj199j3

Edited November 9, 2015 by Vellakare
Link failed

[jhb171achill]

The GNR senior management (and I knew several of them in later years, so this is from the horses mouth), would have very definitely gone ahead with full dieselisation after 1953, had the funds been made available by Dublin and Stormont.

 

While they did look into various options, the strongest probability was a great many more AEC and / or BUT cars for ALL passenger trains. Thus, they would have gone down the road of the UTA in turning passenger work over to railcars. We would probably have seen a CIE / UTA / CDRJC style conversion of many varied older loco-hauled coaches to railcar trailers and intermediates. A truly Irish phenomenon.

 

Goods would most likely have ended up in the hands of a mixture of German and British built locomotives - goodness knows of what design.

 

Strangely, among the paperwork of a former (Dundalk) Works Manager, an old family friend, no mention was made of shunting engines!

 

So a GNR which survived could have seen a 1966 dawning with a handful of old steam engines used for little more than shunting about Dublin, Belfast or Dundalk. Possibly the "Enterprise" might have retained loco haulage, however both CIE and the UTA used railcars on it in the 60s!

 

Had the bulk of the GNR lasted longer, what of containerised goods traffic?

[Vellakare]

On the Diesel locomotive side, two types take over.

 

Both are Diesel Hydraulic, and of German origin, likely coming from Arn Jung with either a Maybach or Mak engine and Voith/Mekydro transmission.

 

1. 60 tonne B-B 1,000hp, twin cab, a bit like the Spanish FEVE type. (CIÉ B241?) 20 Locomotives. These would be commonly double headed. 120kph capable (*75mph)

2. Single cab B-B 800hp, resembling K801. (CIÉ C281?). 90kph capable (*56mph)

 

Later on in life,

[jhb171achill]

Imagine no border, or a border which had no effect on the railways.

 

GNR survives, probably as part of CIE. What's left? Probably Dundalk - Enniskillen - Derry, and Portadown - Omagh.

 

The INWR would be ICR country, possibly timber in Monaghan area..... CAF sets GVS - Omagh - Derry?

 

North Wall - Derry containers?

[Garfield]

I found those New Irish Lines articles I mentioned previously.

 

The first is on the proposed dieselisation of the GNR, which includes a number of drawings of proposed loco designs from the likes of Beyer Peacock, Alsthom, Sulzer, Henschel, Deutz, Vulcan Foundry...

 

'Great Northern Railway Diesels That Could Have Been' by Dónal Murray

Part 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mz86b7x52bf58oh/New%20Irish%20Lines%20-%20Vol.%204%20No.%202%20-%202005%20November.pdf

Part 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7y7ar7ocv92l0aa/New%20Irish%20Lines%20-%20Vol.%204%20No.%203%20-%202006%20May.pdf

 

(Incidentally, the latter issue also includes an article by one J Beaumont entitled 'CIÉ & IÉ Liveries' - there's no escape!)

 

 

Dónal's articles prompted a follow-on from one of our own members in the May 2007 edition...

 

'The GNR diesels proposal: an antipodean perspective' by John Mayne

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f04ck64yjj6u9k9/New%20Irish%20Lines%20-%20Vol.%204%20No.%205%20-%202007%20May.pdf

 

 

And Dónal also wrote a piece on the proposed electrification of the GNR main line, which includes a couple of drawings:

 

'Proposed Electrification of the GNR(I) Main Line'

https://www.dropbox.com/s/37ilc0r6lk4brg6/New%20Irish%20Lines%20-%20Vol.%204%20No.%206%20-%202007%20November.pdf

[leslie10646]

Had the bulk of the GNR lasted longer, what of containerised goods traffic?

 

What were you getting at here, John? - whether the existing container traffic would have continued, or instead ceased? The GN was commendably heavily into containers - not just the bread, but lots of BR containers (usually carried inside open wagons!).

 

But the biggest "what if", which we modellers CAN pretend actually happened, is that the Border followed the Provincial boundary - then we would indeed still have the Irish North and the line through Armagh to Clones, etc. As for the other later closures, they simply wouldn't have happened. Wow, Blue and Cream CAFS running to Clones on an hourly service!

 

Leslie

[jhb171achill]

Not really getting at anything in particular, Leslie - just an over active mind wandering.....

 

Youre right about the other bits......

 

If the border had never existed, all would have been CIE. In such a case, would all the AECs have fuel out and been replaced by an entire loco hauled railway with 141s towing laminates into Coleraine, Omagh and Larne?

 

Belfast's suburbans would have been a loco spotter's paradise with C, 121 push pulls, 141s and 181s rattling about on the Bangor, Lisburn and Larne lines.

 

Had the border existed, but for some reason had no impact at all on the railways, would we now have NIR operating the NCC, IE operating Connolly - Sligo and everything south of it, and a modern GNR operating the main line, INWR, Cavan and Portadown - Omagh?

 

Just a thought.

 

I'm sure freight would be there in some form in such a scenario - maybe still also on the NIR (NCC)!

[Mayner]

One of the more ironical things about the closure of the Derry Road was that Stormont killed of a potentially profitable rail freight operation.

 

Freight traffic under customs bond from Dundalk to Strabane for County Donegal was very heavy with two or more nightly trains up to closure.

 

Strabane was in modern terms an inland port for Donegal with County Donegal Railway (CDRJC) road services operating passenger and freight services radiating from Strabane to most of Donegal. CIE only took over from the CDR in 1972.

 

IThis could have opened up a scenario of the Derry Road staying open as far as Strabane for Donegal freight traffic with an IWT style operation, if the politicians were pragmatic enough or even passenger services through to Foyle Road cross-subsidised by freight access charges.

 

Possibly Donegal freights operated by CIE or even the CDJR on running powers from Dundalk. The CDJR running leased 001, 071 or Hunslets in Donegal red and cream livery ;)just like the leased CIE busses in the 1960s

 

JHB

 

The German 1000hp diesel hydraulics just don't add up for working heavy loose coupled goods trains single headed over the more hilly sections of the main line or Derry Road.

 

Building new loco maintenance works at Adelaide and buying tower cabbed English Electric A1A A1As would have been more politically acceptable in Northern Ireland than subsidising jobs in the Free State and possibly swayed the powers that be more in favour of keeping the railways.