4mm scale 'WT' rebuild from a Fowler 2-6-4T

[Richard EH]

Hi all,

 

First post in a while, but that doesn’t mean that I’ve not been building, just that I’ve not had time to write some stuff up!

 

So a long time loco on my wish list is a WT 2-6-4 tank. I’ve read a lot of the good work others have done on this forum, and in New Irish Lines over the years, and decided that I’d give it a go as a quick conversion (Why does that always turn out not to be the case!). Managed to pick up a nearly new Hornby Fowler tank - the new version with finer valve gear and detailing to use as a basis for about £50. S and J models in Northwich was the source for this, and started mulling over the plan to get it as good as I can, and to use as much of the good detail work that this model possesses.

 

First action was to print off the drawing in the resources section of this website, which correctly has the double drop on the side tanks – I’ve seen another drawing which doesn’t have this, and to work out what to remove, and what to keep. So, to remove, I decided on the following:

• Bottom section of the tanks

• The radius on the running plate above the cylinders

• Cab side sheet(to insert the side windows)

• Smokebox clips

• Rear bunker behind the cab(retaining the middle of the moulded coal to retain the fixing screw

• Rear bunker detail

• Cab steps

 

All of this was done with careful work with a razor saw for the bunker and side tanks, scalpel for the minor detail and drill/scalpel to remove material from round the cab side sheet. The plastic this model is made from cuts and glues very well – it’s a dream to work with.

 

To add:

• New section of the side tanks from plasticard

• Top feed on the boiler (from spares box) and pipework form brass wire

• Smokebox wheel (made from a 16ba bolt, brass wire and a washer soldered up and filed down)

• New bunker (from plasticard

• New cab windows (3d printed – on order)

• Numberplates (on order from Guilplates, decided to go for No.4 so I’ve plenty of time periods to run it from the 40’s to present day

• Rivets on the side tanks (I’ve a set of the resin rivet sheets on order from Archer in the USA which should do very nicely.

• Various handrails/steps/lamp brackets etc( to add from brass wire, etc)

 

Please find below a few photos illustrating where it’s currently up to. It’s quite a straightforward conversion really – the only bit that really isn’t quite right is the rear section of the cab which is a few millimetres too deep but seeing as it’s the wrong gauge anyway, I’m not too worried….

 

I’ll add some photos as this develops, but it may be a while before I do!

[Dunluce Castle]

Nice start Richard! The 3d printed windows do intrigue me, can't wait to see what those look like, and of course the completed model. If at all possible, Can you PM me the drawings that you used? I looked in the resources section here but can only find the incorrect 2 step drawing. Thanks.

[leslie10646]

Great Stuff, Richard

 

At least you're using the right loco as a starter, for apart from the fact that the WTs were parallel boilered like the Fowler tank, they are directly descended from that engine!

 

As I'm sure you are aware, young Mr Flanagan of this parish uses the Fowler as a basis for the WTs which he has built for quite a few of us (two in my case). They are great runners and I've just been entertaining my grandson with No.10 hammering round with 21 wagons in tow (including five corrugateds!).

 

Good luck with the project.

 

Leslie

[Kirley]

Having built one of these using Colm Flanagan's method, I'm looking forward to seeing your approach. Keep the pictures coming please.

[Richard EH]

Hi guys,

 

Many thanks for the words of encouragement.

 

I should say the 3d windows are 3d window frames, all window glazing on the side windows will be conventional clear plasticard if required! The drawing is the one on the forums resources, however, as I'm working from the hornby fowler tank anyway - it's following the principle of if it looks right, it is right.....!

 

I've now received the archer transfer pack, and they look rather nice. The guilplates numberplates have also now arrived and look good too, so once the window, frames, arrive, I'll have all I need to proceed - I'll be sure to post some updates as it develops!

[33lima]

Looking good - keep the pics coming!

 

The real no.4 is supposed to be on show at the RPSI open day at Whitehead on Sat 25 July which I hope to get to - shout if you need any detail pics taken, though there are plenty online these days, something I wish I'd had back in the early 1990s when I tackled a jeep, much the same way you're doing.

 

You'll want to move the whistle to the front of the cab roof and I think the roof hatch was in two pieces with rails front and rear (at least that's what I ended up with). The valve or sandbox filler things on the forward footplate (behind the steam pipes either side of the smokebox) also need hacking off and there were two small rectangular plates welded between the boiler and the top of the water tank each side, level with the filler, presumably to deflect water that would otherwise have flowed down between the boiler and the tanks. Footplate valences also benefit from being cut or filed back up to footplate level, notably behind the front buffer beam and under the rear bunker. IIRC I cut off the complete front footplate and its triangular stiffener plates, and replaced the lot with plastcard, with the buffer beam glued back in front. Ah, the memories your pics are bringing back!!!

 

'U' shapes folded from stiff florist's wire, with the top part bent to fit the bodyshell, when faced with plasticard strip, make good replacements for the cab and footplate steps, like these:

 

 

I think Colm reckoned the fronts of the water tanks need to be trimmed back a bit - but if they really extend too far forwards towards the rear of the smokebox, I can't see it, from studying photos. Colm's WT build article is in the June 2006 Railway Modeller and well worth a read, including some excellent colour pics of excellent models, the Mogul as well as the jeeps. My 1990s effort was in (original) Irish Lines number 7, summer 1994, which article included the works drawing with the correct steps in the lower line of the water tanks - article with drawing available in the NIL archive, here:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8xw456e8ao4ila/Irish%20Lines%20-%20Issue%207%20-%201994%20Summer.pdf

 

Pics like this one are as good, though, perhaps better:

 

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/images/photonews/090131/090131_No4Curragh_PatGantly.jpg

 

I think if you keep the cab rear where it is, the bunker behind it is a little long, but like you I left this alone, to retain the bit in the middle with the fixing screw! EDIT - now I remember - I actually ended up with a long bunker, because I moved the rear cab forward a little. I did this to avoid too wide a pillar behind the cab door, which you get if you just fill in the 'bite' to the top rear of the cab door. There's a bit of 'excess length' somewhere in the Fowler, and I contemplated moving the complete cab back a little and filling in all the gaps left ahead (yuk!), or cutting back the rear of the chassis block and shortening the bunker, before deciding a bunker that was a little too long was the 'least worst' solution, for me anyway.

 

Another thing to check is the width you end up with, of the top section of the bunker, above the angled plates; too narrow or too wide, and it can mar the appearance, seen from the rear, of an otherwise good model.

 

Anyway do please keep the inspirational pics coming!

 

PS here's a snip of the Irish Lines drawing; actually, my model's bunker looks about the same as this, so maybe I was more careful than I remembered, but then the smokebox/watertank gap is big, not like in the above photo, hence be wary of works drawings:

 

Edited July 20, 2015 by 33lima

[Dunluce Castle]

Thanks 33lima for linking/posting the drawing and your detailed description of how you went about making your jeep. I can't wait to start my one now haha.

[33lima]

Thanks Nelson, I'm sure your WT will set a very high standard.

 

Re Whitehead to-morrow (25 July) the RPSI page for the open day has been changed to say that 4-4-0 131 is the engine in steam, rather than 4: http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/events/

[Richard EH]

A quick update on progress since my first update.

 

 

 

I’ve fitted the piping into the new whitemetal top feed which I think looks the part.I’ve also now added the 3rd printed window frames on one side. I’ve used both on one side as they were a bit thin – I’ll need another pair for the other side – but it will allow me to fix some glazing for the cab side window and then a little bit of glue to stick the remaining fame over the top which should make a nice clean job of this part of the cab.

 

 

 

Also now added are plasticard overlays to the tank and bunker sides. This has allowed a clear view of how it looks without being distracted by the BR lining, number and crest. What seems clear is that the rear section of the cab is too long and it needs to be shorter. I need to use caution here clearly as the cab roof is a clearly visible part so it’ll be some careful work with the razor saw, I’m not too concerned with the loss of the rivet detail(see below), but it will need to be a precise job. The additional benefit is that it will allow me to get the rear cab windows the right shape so I’m on the lookout for some suitable etches for these and the protective bars over the windows.

 

 

 

I’ve also now received the sample pack of archer rivets – picture attached. These look like they’ll be great and I’ll be able to carefully mark up the lines for the rivets on the white plasticard sides and then cut out an appropriate length. The tricky bit is likely to be the curved sections on the base of the tanks – but I think tha just needs a bit of care. Also now received are the set of numberplates from guilplates, and very nice they look too!

 

 

 

Just need to order a set of window frames and I’ll have all the parts I need to complete. Not as quick a job as I was expecting but coming together well.

 

 

 

Cheers for now.

 

 

 

Richard.

 

 

[Dunluce Castle]

Excellent update/progress Richard!

[33lima]

Looking good!

 

You're right about the cab being too long. It's also too far back - the GA drawing appears accurate in this respect. Ideally the cab needs cut free, moved forward a little and a bigger slice taken vertically out of the rear. I think the front and rear cab sheets fold up from the floor unit which latter can be trimmed accordingly and the rear, then re-attached. Just cutting away some of the excess length at the back will make a difference (you may want to increase the width of the top, open section of the coal bunker, at the same time, to improve the cross-section). But leaving the cab front where it is, means the cab front, the last step in the side tanks and the rear driving wheel centres don't line up right, in profile view.

 

I would definitely suggest trimming away the little 'skirt' under the footplate/running board all the way along, rather than taking the new plasticard tank sides all the way down to it. It's not that deep, but it's enough to make the big side tanks look too deep, at the front - all the way along, in fact. It'll leave a little gap above the cylinders, unless you can move them up a little, but better that, than deepening/distorting the outline of those distinctive side tanks.

 

May seem like a lot of bother for comparatively little return but you are already doing a fairly major conversion job and might as well make those few extra cuts that will make all the difference to the accuracy of the finished model, rather than (as I have done in the past!) hold back, thinking 'It'll be near enough!', then wishing after I done all the painting and finishing that I had gone a bit further!

[Richard EH]

Looking good!

 

You're right about the cab being too long. It's also too far back - the GA drawing appears accurate in this respect. Ideally the cab needs cut free, moved forward a little and a bigger slice taken vertically out of the rear. I think the front and rear cab sheets fold up from the floor unit which latter can be trimmed accordingly and the rear, then re-attached. Just cutting away some of the excess length at the back will make a difference (you may want to increase the width of the top, open section of the coal bunker, at the same time, to improve the cross-section). But leaving the cab front where it is, means the cab front, the last step in the side tanks and the rear driving wheel centres don't line up right, in profile view.

 

I would definitely suggest trimming away the little 'skirt' under the footplate/running board all the way along, rather than taking the new plasticard tank sides all the way down to it. It's not that deep, but it's enough to make the big side tanks look too deep, at the front - all the way along, in fact. It'll leave a little gap above the cylinders, unless you can move them up a little, but better that, than deepening/distorting the outline of those distinctive side tanks.

 

May seem like a lot of bother for comparatively little return but you are already doing a fairly major conversion job and might as well make those few extra cuts that will make all the difference to the accuracy of the finished model, rather than (as I have done in the past!) hold back, thinking 'It'll be near enough!', then wishing after I done all the painting and finishing that I had gone a bit further!

 

Many thanks for the details there, I'll mull over and think through a way forward - three options, I think:

 

1. Stick with the cab as is:

2. Shorten in the same place:

3. Shorten and move forward.....

 

All of which have their pros and cons - and as it's a fowler tank anyway, some compromise is inevitable....

 

Cheers for now.

 

Richard.

[Richard EH]

So I’ve been giving the WT some thought and went to expo em the other weekend.

 

I’ve decided to take option B and shorten the cab on what is, by using a fowler tank as a base, not a 100% WT clearly! I do wonder if the loading gauge is slightly bigger compared to the fowler tank as it just seems a bit… fatter… all round.

 

In any case, the photo shows the chopped cab in profile which I think looks pretty good. Certainly matching it with some of the side on shots in ‘parting shot’ seems to give something which doesn’t cause any problems for me and I think looks the part.

 

I was wandering round Expo em to search for some etched rear cab spectacle plates but there didn’t appear to be anything suitable, so the next step is to make something suitable up in plasticard, remake the top of the bunker behind the cab after the razor saw has been at it and make good. After that, lots of fun with rivets beckons for the tank sides, and some scrap etch for the cab steps.

 

Cheers for now.

 

Richard.

[Richard EH]

Hi all,

 

Quick update as I've progressed a bit further. I've shortened the cab at the rear and replaced the rear spectacle plates with a new plasticard back to the cab. I've also completed the platework on the bunker - though it needs a bit more work at the back of the cab.

 

The main bit of progress is a quick blow over with some white primer, and I've started to add the archer resin rivets. The pack I've bought was the demo pack with a variety of rivets per centimetre, so I've been poring over some of the good side on shots of these machines to get the right look to the multiple rows of rivets. The main problem with these is that all of the rows are in straight lines, so I'm mulling over how to apply the rivets on the few curved sections on the tank. I think the best way will be to cut individual rivets out on their strip, soak on the workbench then pick up with the knife and apply gently....I've already put a thin coat of dullcote on so the existing rivets won't be going anywhere...

 

Final bit of progress is the handrails going onto the rear of the bunker.

 

Anyhow, looking good for now,

 

Cheers for now!

 

Richard

[jhb171achill]

Wow!

 

Like the correct front profile of an "A" or "C" class, a B101, 80 class railcar or AEC railcar, a "Jeep" is something that few seem to get convincingly right. This one IS right - looks perfect - well done.

[burnthebox]

Magic piece of workmanship Richard, I picked up a Fowler 2-6-4T loco which I bought for that very purpose, its slightly different than yours but a great runner, of course I won't be the expert who will do the transformation,but in good time I'll hope to get someone on here to do what's necessary ! I'll try & get a photo up so you can see where it differs from your one, the bunker on mine stands out as been wrong, but you'll see what I mean if I get to put up the pic !

 

Here's the loco I have

 

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/s/?view=att&th=15080b43efd7ffb7&attid=0.1&disp=attd&realattid=1515399021063045120-local0&safe=1&zw

Edited October 19, 2015 by burnthebox

[Kirley]

Looks good Richard. PS can you answer your PM please?

[Mayner]

Well done the rivet detail and plasticard overlays really capture the angular look of these locomotives.

[skinner75]

Rivet work looks very well!

[David Holman]

Mmmmm, I am no expert, but that really does look the part. Great work.

[Richard EH]

Looks good Richard. PS can you answer your PM please?

 

 

Apologies, PM sent!

 

Richard.

[Richard EH]

Many thanks for the kind comments all, that's much appreciated!

 

I've done some experimenting, and what seems to work for the curved section of rivets is to:

 

1. cut out a line of rivets

2. cut into individual rivets on the cutting mat

3. then move into a small puddle of water on the cutting mat so that the water is soaked up

4. pick up with the knife when loose and apply carefully

5. Repeat.... a lot!!

 

Gonna be here a while....! Will update when I've some pore progress to report....!

 

Cheers for now

 

Richard.

[Horsetan]

The WTs ran on 6' diameter driving wheels, exactly the same ones used on the Stanier Black Five. Might be worth seeing if you can obtain a set of the current Hornby Black Five wheels and fitting them into the 4P chassis. This would correct the ride height and reinforce the WT's characteristic high-stepping looks.

 

The rest of the model looks grand.

 

I'm still waiting for Alan Doherty at Worsley Works to unleash his long-threatened WT kit, having put my name down for one ages ago.

[jhb171achill]

Masterpiece!!!!!

[Dhu Varren]

The WTs ran on 6' diameter driving wheels, exactly the same ones used on the Stanier Black Five. Might be worth seeing if you can obtain a set of the current Hornby Black Five wheels and fitting them into the 4P chassis. This would correct the ride height and reinforce the WT's characteristic high-stepping looks.

 

I would agree with Horsetan. I am in the early stages of building a WT, and have replaced the 4P wheels with the larger Black 5 wheels. The only thing that needs doing is to adjust the brake gear so that it does not foul the larger wheels. I have also replaced the front pony and rear bogie wheels with correct size smaller wheels. The original 4P wheels are too big for a WT. Again, the correct size wheels all round, make all the difference to the appearance of the loco.

[Horsetan]

I would agree with Horsetan. I am in the early stages of building a WT, and have replaced the 4P wheels with the larger Black 5 wheels. The only thing that needs doing is to adjust the brake gear so that it does not foul the larger wheels. I have also replaced the front pony and rear bogie wheels with correct size smaller wheels. The original 4P wheels are too big for a WT. Again, the correct size wheels all round, make all the difference to the appearance of the loco.

 

If you really wanted to go the whole hog, then some work to the front frame arrangements might be possible - i.e. widening them to make them look more suited to 5'3" (albeit this illusion would work better for those working to 21mm gauge), and increasing the vertical gap between the main footplate and the front footplate/bufferbeam assembly.

[Richard EH]

Hi all,

 

Many thanks for the kind comments. progress stopped for a while whilst I awaited a new tin of testors dullcote: until I could put a quick blow of varnish over it, I couldn't make progress with the rivet detail. That's now arrived and by coincidence it's currently drying as I've pretty much finished the left hand side, rear bunker and have made a start on the right hand side.

 

Will post up a photo or two when the rivets are done. Just a bit of detailing I think then, cab steps and maybe relocate the whistle. Thanks for the clues on the driving wheels, will take a look at those and see what I can get hold of.

 

Richard.

[Horsetan]

.... Thanks for the clues on the driving wheels, will take a look at those and see what I can get hold of....

 

You should also be able to get away with using scale 3' 10-spoke wheels by robbing the trailing ones used in the bogie of the Hornby "King".

[jhb171achill]

The lining on a scale model UTA loco seems to be quite hard - it generally appears very overscale on models...

 

Livery detail - buffer beam numbers were (almost uniquely on an Irish railway) completely plain straw colour - no shading or lining at all, like modern computer print - when in initial and short lived NCC livery (maroon lining only). The "N C C" on the sides was likewise.

 

The UTA used conventional shaded numerals.

 

I've seen models with the pre-1963 UTA "red hand roundel" but I don't think I've ever seen the 1963-7 crest on any model. This would look well but would need to be scaled down as it was quite small - I think, from memory about a scale 2.5 - 3mm in height.

 

The UTA painted the main connecting rod red, again I think unique in Ireland.

[Richard EH]

Hi all,

 

Happy New Year to all on the forum!

 

Managed some progress on the WT over Christmas in between all the celebrations and mince pies!

 

Really all I've now done is completed the riveting on the side tanks using the archer resin rivets. As mentioned previously, I've used the sample pack to get the various spacing of rivets. The tricky bit was getting the corners right and I've generally cut each rivet out and applied them individually. Done a few at a time and then applied some matt varnish to make sure the next set didn't lift the previous set... was straightforward but was time consuming...!

 

Next step is to sort the cab steps, cab rainstrip, relocate the whistle, and sort some steps for the back of the bunker. That'll sort the body I think ready for painting and after that it's about looking at some replacement wheels as helpfully set out upthread.

 

All the best for now.

 

Richard.

[jhb171achill]

For such a common and popular engine, we rarely seem to see a really top class convincing model. There are some, but not many.

 

Here's another one - it's one of the best I've seen. Excellent work. Would look amazing with a string of spoil hoppers, or dilapidated UTA coaches behind it!

[Kirley]

Time consuming Richard but look at the results. Looking forward to seeing it painted.

[scahalane]

A rivet counters dream, love the detail on this. Can't wait to see it painted.

[Richard EH]

Hi Guys,

 

Many thanks for those kind words, will keep the thread updated with progress.

 

Kind Regards

 

Richard.

[Richard EH]

Hi all,

 

A bit more progress to report, I've:

 

Looked at the rear bunker and included the cut outs on the sloped section at the side. Does anyone know what's in there? (Tank filler perhaps - but there's a filler on the top of the side tanks, so maybe not....)

Shifted the whistle from the top of the firebox to the top of the cab

Bought from 51L models, now that they're selling the comet range of detailing parts

LS22 Ivatt live and exhaust steam injectors, and

LS36 LMS two rung cab steps for the steps into the cab

 

Both of these are great castings and I now need another set of steps for the front footplate above the leading pony truck and to complete the rear bunker steps and it's nearly ready for painting. Will post up a photo when I get the latter two items complete.

 

Cheers for now.

 

Richard.