BUT Railcars

[Kirley]

I am currently building some BUT Railcars the 700 & 900 Series and am looking for information on how these Railcars were used by the various Railway Companies.

 

 

 

I know they were initially used by the GNR on the Enterprise Service.

1. What would be the makeup of an ‘Enterprise’ train and how many Power Cars were used?

2. Were both the 700 & 900 (full cab or half cab as they are sometimes referred too) ever used in the same train formation?

3. What formation did CIE use after they received the BUT’s?

4. Similarly how did the UTA structure BUT Trains?

5. Finally how did NIR utilise these Railcars on their Services?

 

I was looking in Jonathan Allen’s excellent book on the NIR and he helpfully lists Trailers used by the BUT’s and because of their unusual corridor connection (what was the thinking behind that idea?) I take it coaches so adapted could only be linked up to BUT Railcars.

 

Jonathan lists the following trailers that the NIR inherited and could only be used on BUT’s;

Catering vehicles -three B6, B8 & B9

Brake First Corridor -two D5 & F16

Brake Standard Open -four 2 L12’s & 2 L14’s

Composite Corridor -three C2 & 2 F16’s

Standard Open –three 2 K15’s & K23.

 

In particular I would like to know for model train operations how many Power Cars were used in any train formation. Hope someone out there can help

[DiveController]

Hi Kieran,

Although you would know vastly more about the NIR system than I would, the following information may be useful. The 900 which had a cab at one end of the vehicle only, has run in formation with the 700s which were cabbed at both ends of the vehicle. BUT supplied 900s to the GNRB in '57/58 to "be run in formations of up to 8 cars in conjunction with the 700s". UTA crested ex-GNR 6car formation Derry-Belfast 1958 had 2x900s at the ends with two unpowered cars and 2x700s, (Irish Railways in Color, A second Glance, Tom Ferris p88)

CIE BUT Green c904n Macmine Jx, 1962 with ex-GNR coach, B'n'T coach and ?4w TPO van p26 same ref.

 

EDIT: Enterprise often consisted of only a 4 car set on weekdays in winter 133(900)-562-583-121(700),GVS 1968, Norman Johnston's Parting Shot p67

Also 128-594/594-131/134, another 3 car set ? (maybe Belfast-Derry route), p68

123-591/592-121 class also seen alongside, p69

Also 133-572--584, GVS, (1968) p72

I am not sure if these rakes particularly the last are complete or just what was recorded in the shot

 

Portadown June 1968, 2.30pm GVS-Dublin Enterprise 133-562-552-556-123-125-584-12x?, probably the traditional full set for summer runnning, p81

I have the impression that Class 70 took over about =69, then the Hunslet PPs

K

Edited November 22, 2016 by DiveController
typo and info corrected

[Mayner]

I think the railcars were assembled in Dundalk from parts supplied by BUT. The 700s seem to have been introduced before the single ended 900s, the original GNR publicity photo is of the BUTs is of an Enterprise with 4 700 class power cars and 2 non powered trailer cars.

 

I think the original intention was to design a train that could be divided to run to different destinations. This is supported by the double ended 700 Class and continental style corridor connections.

 

The GNR managed to operate a fast Belfast-Enniskillen service for a few weeks before the Irish North Closed in 1957 with a 700 class by dividing a Belfast-Derry (Foyle Rd) BUT railcar set at Omagh.

 

After the break-up of the GNR CIE seems to have used its BUTs on Westland Row-Rosslare services in preference to its own AEC cars which were less powerful.

 

There was talk of CIE selling its last serviceable BUT set to NIR during the 70s, CIE overhauled a set of BUT railcars during a loco shortage but the unit was stored in Dundalk paint shop and never went back into service.

[Kirley]

Thanks Kevin and John. I appreciate all the research you did Kevin before giving your answer.. unless you carry all that knowledge in your head!

John I know from your previous answers you do hold a tremendous a wealth of knowledge. Did you ever come across the reason why the GNRI used the continental style corridor connections making all the BUT Trailers unusable with other stock?

[Old Blarney]

Kirley,

 

"Did you ever come across the reason why the GNRI used the continental style corridor connections making all the BUT Trailers unusable with other stock?"

I'm not absolutely sure of my facts on this matter. I offer the following as a possible answer to your question. The GNR, AEC, 600 Class power cars, were incapable of running as multiple units, thus they were limited to a configuration of two power cars in any set. The configuration was often strengthened by including one or two unpowered cars between the two Powered cars. Alternatively, a two car set could have a third coach added as a trailer. Bearing these facts in mind the 600 Class were therefor limited in their make-up unlike the CIE 2600s which were capable of Multiple Set working.

The 700 and 900 Class railcars were designed for multiple unit running, thus they were wholly incompatible with the 600 class of railcar. I suspect the fitting of the Continental Type Gangway to the 700 and 900 was to ensure they would only be used together, and not mixed with a 600 series unit.

[DiveController]

Kirley,

 

"Did you ever come across the reason why the GNRI used the continental style corridor connections making all the BUT Trailers unusable with other stock?"

I'm not absolutely sure of my facts on this matter. I offer the following as a possible answer to your question. The GNR, AEC, 600 Class power cars, were incapable of running as multiple units, thus they were limited to a configuration of two power cars in any set. The configuration was often strengthened by including one or two unpowered cars between the two Powered cars. Alternatively, a two car set could have a third coach added as a trailer. Bearing these facts in mind the 600 Class were therefor limited in their make-up unlike the CIE 2600s which were capable of Multiple Set working.

The 700 and 900 Class railcars were designed for multiple unit running, thus they were wholly incompatible with the 600 class of railcar. I suspect the fitting of the Continental Type Gangway to the 700 and 900 was to ensure they would only be used together, and not mixed with a 600 series unit.

Was there a physical connection between the power cars to enable MU e.g thru the unpowered coaches. They were usually separated within the formation from each other, no different from a PP service though, I guess.

If any one has a photo of these continental gangways I would be interested to see how they appear

[Mayner]

Was there a physical connection between the power cars to enable MU e.g thru the unpowered coaches. They were usually separated within the formation from each other, no different from a PP service though, I guess.

If any one has a photo of these continental gangways I would be interested to see how they appear

 

The MU controls were electro-pneumatic with intermediate coaches wired to run with the railcars. The BUT railcars and coaches had the same type of rubber gangways as used in mainland Europe were draft roof and would have required less maintenance than the type of gangway used in Ireland

 

As David said the 600 Class was limited to a maximum of two power cars, the BUTs and CIE 2600 cars 4 power cars. Why CIE never re-wired its barely run in 600s to bring them in line with its own 2600 fleet is on of lifes little mysteries

[Kirley]

If any one has a photo of these continental gangways I would be interested to see how they appear

 

The connection is shown in the picture at the start of this thread, here's a closeup.

 

[DiveController]

Oh, understood. Someone I was under the impression there was something else other than what was on the front of the power car. Doh!

I presume the gangways just abutted each other when the cars were linked? I'm not sure what prevented these being used with other gangways (sorry I know little of the different gangways that were used)

[DiveController]

John, sorry I missed your post above. Thanks for that.

[jhb171achill]

Both AEC and BUT sets could end up trailing all sorts of interesting stuff behind them. I saw a picture of a two car set at one stage (I think on the DSER) with an 1880s six-wheeler behind it!

[DiveController]

Indeed, it seems so outlandish that one would probably not run that as a model

[Mayner]

Indeed, it seems so outlandish that one would probably not run that as a model

 

 

0:59 Flat with Insulated Container attached to Limerick Waterford passenger trains

 

Despite dieselisation CIE & UTA continued to operate a steam age railway with loose formation trains into the 70s

 

One of the original GNR 600 class sets operated a regularly operated a link that included a return Enterprise working, a couple of off peak Amiens St Howth services and finished its day by working the Derry Vacuum to Portadown presumably with a string of vans coupled behind the railcars. The UTA basically treated its MPD & 70 Class railcars as locomotives and hauling freight trains on the main line and parcel traffic in and out of Larne.

[jhb171achill]

The Derry goods tended to be hauled by 70 class or multiple MPD cars. I never heard of GNR cars doing that....? For obvious reasons, MED cars wouldn't have been there either....

[popeye]

Proper trains. The first train had 190 & A Class together, i haven't

seen that before.

[jhb171achill]

Proper trains. The first train had 190 & A Class together, i haven't

seen that before.

 

Things like that were extremely rare, in fact exceptional. But they did happen! I only ever saw evidence of combinations like this maybe 2 or 3 times - a bit like the elusive double heading of NIR Hunslets or GMs. Rare, but possible.

[DiveController]

Wasn't disagreeing with that, just saying some of us might not model our trains with sufficient variety at times. THese old clips are great for demonstrating what ran together in those times.

 

0:59 Flat with Insulated Container attached to Limerick Waterford passenger trains

Despite dieselisation CIE & UTA continued to operate a steam age railway with loose formation trains into the 70s

Love that video. That train also has a 4w heating van with space for 3T of luggage AND two luggage vans!

Edited November 30, 2016 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

Incidentally, you'll notice from the original post that the leading car, in CIE green, still has a GNR navy blue and cream gangway cover.

[Lambeg man]

As a new member I was not posting when this thread was started, but I did read it and responded directly to Kirley. I would therefore like to take this opportunity to place some further comment to several of the above posts.

Trials with the initial "Enterprise" set began in April 1957 and the set consisted of power cars 701, 702 and 703. The three trailers cars were a D 5 (Brake/First), a C 2 (All First) and between them the B 9 Buffet car. Initially only the outer ends of the C 2 and the D 5 had BUT type corridor connections, as the Buffet car retained conventional 'concertina' connections. Not doubt this was the catering department saying "Okay, take the B 9 for trials, but leave the corridor connections on it in case we need it back before the train enters service."

It is unclear from my research what the motive was to use the “continental” style large rubber corridor connections on these cars and their trailer vehicles, other than it would allow for quick coupling and uncoupling, as the outer faces of the connection simply pressed together when the vehicles were marshalled together. Was there some grand plan that BUT type trains would divide en-route, e.g. one complete train leaving Belfast or Dublin to serve two destinations? In the event the fitting of this type of connection prevented the safe use of BUT cars (especially the trailers), in a train composed of any other rolling stock.

IRN reported that following an inaugural run for the press on Tuesday 4/6/57, on Wednesday 19/6/58 the first 6-car set entered traffic on the Belfast based “Enterprise”. IRN gave the formation as being 703-225-232-124-176-702-701. In fact the correct formation was 703-226 (not 225)-232-124-702-701. It is highly probable that 176 (a K 15 Second) with power car 704 were added in either late June or early July of the same year, taking the set up to the maximum operating ratio of 4 power cars and 4 trailers.

By the time the BUT cars were being introduced, the Northern Ireland government (despite having put up half the money for them), had already decided to close large sections of the GNR within their province. In a perhaps somewhat vague idea that political minds could be changed, the GNR hit on an idea to show the improved service levels and economy these new Railcars could provide. Having produced the initial four power cars that went into the Belfast based “Enterprise” set, No. 705 was completed in July 1957 with nothing to run with. It was therefore deployed on Monday 22/7/57 on a new service, the “Enniskillen Express”. Having no formal decoration, this set comprised of the said BUT power car towing a wooden panelled Brake/Second carriage classified D 3. It left Enniskillen at 08.50 and called at Bundoran Junction to connect with a service from there and was scheduled to be in Omagh at 09.35. Ten minutes were allowed for the Railcar to run around the trailer car and after a pause at Carrickmore, it reached Belfast at 11.20, shaving 65 minutes of the best previous schedule. The return journey started at 19.00 from Belfast non-stop to Omagh, thence again non-stop to Enniskillen, arriving at 21.05. This effort had no impact on the decision makers and the closures went ahead, the service ceasing on 30th September 1957. It is unclear if the D 3 was fitted with BUT corridor connections at this time, but it certainly had them when photographed at Mallow in 1989!

What may be of interest are other reports concerning the BUT Railcars which featured in IRN over the period from September 1957 up to the dissolution of the GNR(B) in September 1958. By 1st October 1957 passenger services (with minor exception), had ceased on the Portadown to Cavan and the Dundalk to Omagh via Enniskillen lines, as well as on any branch lines that still functioned on these two routes. For the new BUT Railcars, their main deployment now would be on Belfast-Dublin and Belfast-Londonderry services.

IRN reported that on Tuesday 1/10/57 a BUT set was introduced on the 11.15 ex-Belfast and 16.10 ex-Derry return. The set comprised No’s 707-232-708-267-706-705. On arrival back in Belfast, the first three cars were detached from the rear section (which had the Buffet car No. 267) and operated back to Derry at 20.05. From there they returned at 07.15 the next morning and married up with remainder of the set in Belfast.

In July 1958 it was reported that the 08.45 Dublin-Omagh was a BUT set, which detached the rear portion (including the Buffet car) at Omagh. The front portion ran on to Strabane (due 12.38) where a steam train provided a connection to Derry. The 08.25 Belfast-Derry had detached its rear portion (including the Buffet car) at Strabane (due 10.47).  These two BUT portions then combined to form a 13.38 ex-Strabane to Belfast. Meanwhile the front portion of the 08.25 left Derry at 11.55 and joined the rear portion of the 08.45 ex-Dublin at Omagh and ran to Dublin where it then operated a local service as one train. The set was then separated and front portion of what started the day as the 08.25 ex-Belfast worked the 02.15 Dublin-Belfast newspaper train. [If the front portion of the 08.25 did indeed work the Newspaper Train, what was not explained was how the original front portion of the 08.45 returned to Dublin from Belfast!]

In total 16 of the '700' series power cars were produced up to May 1958, production switching to the '900' series with full single end cabs. On 10/7/58 No. 901 entered service on the Belfast based “Enterprise” set, to be joined by No. 902 at the other end on the 12/7/58. On the 8/9/58 the Dublin based “Enterprise” went over to BUT operation with two '900' cars at each end of a four car set, obviously replacing an AEC set on that duty. A total of 8 of the '900' series were produced up October 1958, the last two coming out after the dissolution of the GNR(B).

At the split of rolling stock, the UTA got 9 of the '700' (renumbered 121 to 129)and 5 of the '900' (renumbered 131 to 135) power cars, CIE (which did not renumber their allocation but added a 'C' prefix and an 'N' suffix to the GNR numbers) received the balance of 7 and 3. In total I have managed to track 25 trailer carriages that were fitted for BUT operation, some receiving internal alterations in the process.

Catering vehicles (all designated "Refreshment Cars"): 1 x B 6, 2 x B 8, 1 x B 9, 1 x B 10* (fitted by CIE in 1960) and 2 x K 23

Brake/First (all with heating plant installed): 2 x D 5* and 2 x F 16 (these being 1st/2nd side corridor composites prior to alteration, the last being done by CIE in 1961)

Brake/Second (all with a heating plant installed): 2 x L 12, 1 x L 13 and 3 x L 14

All First: 1 x C 2*

First/Second: 3 x F 16 and 1 x F 17

Second: 3 x K 15

All were 58' chassis, except those marked * which were 60' chassis. Each BUT set required at least one Brake vehicle for train heating purposes, so in GNR operations by September 1958 nine sets were theoretically possible.

When built, all the BUT cars and their trailers appeared in the GNR blue/white “Railcar” livery except for No. 908 which was produced, after the official dissolution of the GNR(B), from the Dundalk Works in the light green livery of CIÉ. Post 1958 CIÉ painted some of the cars into their light green livery, all eventually going into the CIÉ’s black/orange livery. CIÉ also fitted some cars with larger 2′ diameter buffers. Other than that, no changes were made to the original designs. CIÉ continued to use BUT Railcars for the Dublin based “Enterprise” and on 28/1/60 the service was formed of No’s 906-97-192-908. A fire broke out in No. 908, resulting in it and the Brake/2^nd being burnt out. The service went over to diesel-electric locomotive haulage in 1961. Naturally CIÉ used BUT Railcars on local services out of Dublin, especially on outer workings to Dundalk. They were however also deployed on the former Dublin & South Eastern section, on workings to Wexford and Rosslare. As non-standard vehicles, the ranks were reduced by fires and other damage, to the extent that by 1970 only one set was still in regular use. However, in a rather surprising development, in 1974 CIÉ overhauled and repainted four of the '700' cars. Apparently they were intended to be used as solo units, one suggestion being they were to be used on the Loughrea branch. Whatever the original plan was, they never in fact re-entered service in any shape or form. 

The original car that became UTA No. 129 was badly damaged by a fire at Castlebellingham on 12^th May 1960. It was rebuilt by the UTA and re-entered service in early 1962. The rebuild had the body styling of the contemporaneous Multi-Purpose Diesel (MPD) Railcars still being built by the UTA at that time. One of the most notable differences was that the windows had curved corners, rather than the squared GNR type. With regard to the seating in the rebuild, this appears to have been provided by using high backed arm chair seats recovered from the First class sections of some UTA built Multi-Engined Diesel (MED) Railcars, in which some former First class sections had been reduced to Second class, with a revised seating type.

Initially the UTA were happy to just renumber the cars into their new list for Railcars, remove any GNR crests and apply their red hand roundel. Serious repainting of the BUT Railcars into the full UTA’s green livery did not commence until late in 1960. “Wasp” warning panels were applied to all Railcar ends with a driving cab. Roof level exhausts were fitted to all the power cars by the UTA.

The UTA's Belfast based “Enterprise” remained a BUT Railcar working right up to January 1969, when they were replaced by an NIR “70 class” DEMU set. In the early 1960's an 8-car formation topped and tailed by a '900' car appears to have been the norm, but by 1967 the set could down to 4 cars, a '900' leading out of Belfast, a Brake/First, a Buffet car (usually the B 6) and a '700' car trailing. Under the UTA, the BUT Railcars continued to operate most services on the Portadown-Londonderry line until that closed in February 1965. Any spare sets were used as available on local services out of Belfast. In the main these consisted of a '900' and a '700' at each end with a Brake/Second (3-car formation) or and additional First/Second (4-car formation). In the period between 1963 and 1965, the UTA also began a practice of operating a single '700' car on its own on some off-peak services to both Lisburn and as far as Portadown. The vehicle operating in this mode was termed a “doodlebug” by staff.

Also in 1965 the UTA introduced their 'regional' liveries and several BUT railcars went into the GN section livery of Riviera Blue and Cream. However some went directly from UTA 'green' to NIR Maroon/Grey from 1967 on. Another piecemeal alteration carried out by NIR on BUT Railcars was the gradual removal of the higher central headlight on both types of car. The BUT Railcars belonging to NIR finished their days of service working on Belfast-Lisburn-Portadown locals, but even by 1971 a set might have a trip to Dublin on a special. After withdrawal circa 1974, the engines of the '700' cars were removed and set of these de-engined cars was formed for use on locomotive hauled excursions. They were painted in an overall maroon livery with a grey band below the windows. After complete withdrawal in 1978, they had to be drowned in a quarry because of asbestos being present in the bodies.

I hope the above has been of some interest to those seeking to model these wonderful vehicles.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Lambeg man

[Colin_McLeod]

I'm reactivating an old thread in the hope of some information.  I am placing an order with Silver Fox for a BUT set and have one question. 

Would a train, ever have run with a 700 series (side cabs)  at one end and a 900 series (full width cabs) at the other? I like both types and am trying to make decisions without too much application of "Rule one".

Edited July 18 by Colin_McLeod

[jhb171achill]

On 18/7/2024 at 12:23 PM, Colin_McLeod said:

I'm reactivating an old thread in the hope of some information.  I am placing an order with Silver Fox for a BUT set and have one question. 

Would a train, ever have run with a 700 series (side cabs)  at one end and a 900 series (full width cabs) at the other? I like both types and am trying to make decisions without too much application of "Rule one".

I'm wondering about this too. I had at one time an idea that this might have happened, but I cannot find any evidence of it, or any info to confirm or deny it.

[Colin_McLeod]

Thanks Jonathan, it's difficult to find a picture of both ends of a train! I'll keep looking.

 

[Markleman]

On 11/5/2019 at 12:43 AM, Lambeg man said:

a '900' leading out of Belfast, a Brake/First, a Buffet car (usually the B 6) and a '700' car trailing.

Do you mean in GNR days? In my UTA (just) and NIR days they ran like that every day.

In the late Stephen Rafferty's posting above he give an example of a 900 at one end and a 700 at the other on the Enterprise. That was the regular formation. On the UTA/NIR Enterprise of my day there was almost always a full cab facing Dublin to provide first class with a view and a half cab at the other end, with a second half cab elsewhere in the formation.

As there were more half cabs than full cabs it was quite rare to find a full cab at both ends but my records do show it on 21/12/68. Steve gives an example of two full cabs on the CIÉ Enterprise in the early days. From my notes I only saw a full cab at both ends that one time. A half cab at both ends was very common, and so was a half cab at one end and a full cab at the other end.

If you need to see them in action the DVD "NIR Archive Volume 1" has two shots of BUTs and they both have half cabs at one end and full cabs at the other. One in NIR livery was at Lisburn taken by Jonathan Allen, and the other of the Enterprise in UTA blue and white at Drogheda was taken by John Friel.

I cannot speak for GNR days as I did not have a good camera pre-1958, but I did have the kiss-curl (!).

[jhb171achill]

44 minutes ago, Markleman said:

Do you mean in GNR days? In my UTA (just) and NIR days they ran like that every day.

In the late Stephen Rafferty's posting above he give an example of a 900 at one end and a 700 at the other on the Enterprise. That was the regular formation. On the UTA/NIR Enterprise of my day there was almost always a full cab facing Dublin to provide first class with a view and a half cab at the other end, with a second half cab elsewhere in the formation.

As there were more half cabs than full cabs it was quite rare to find a full cab at both ends but my records do show it on 21/12/68. Steve gives an example of two full cabs on the CIÉ Enterprise in the early days. From my notes I only saw a full cab at both ends that one time. A half cab at both ends was very common, and so was a half cab at one end and a full cab at the other end.

If you need to see them in action the DVD "NIR Archive Volume 1" has two shots of BUTs and they both have half cabs at one end and full cabs at the other. One in NIR livery was at Lisburn taken by Jonathan Allen, and the other of the Enterprise in UTA blue and white at Drogheda was taken by John Friel.

I cannot speak for GNR days as I did not have a good camera pre-1958, but I did have the kiss-curl (!).

The "half-cabs" were only being built as the GNR becaqme CIE / UTA, so any such workings fully under a GNR banner would have been at the very eleventh hour, and thus extremely short-lived. The last of them were only completed after the GNR was broken up, albeit they were turned out of Dundalk in full GNR livery, only shortly to be either repainted CIE green, or else have a UTA crest put on themk instead of the GNR one.

I did have an idea I had seen mixed formations myself in the 1960s on the UTA, but I was not certain. This confirms it. The late Steve certainly knew his onions when it came to UTA railcars - perobably the greatest expert on them I've yet encountered. We had been speaking to each other about doing a book on UTA goods stock, but sadly we never got around to it. May he RIP.

Edited July 22 by jhb171achill

[Markleman]

I first met Steve in 1967 and he was very knowledgeable about GNR coaching stock even then when we were both at school.

I just plucked one date out of my notes, 13/12/68, when 132/594/124 were on the 16:55 Belfast to Lisburn. Steve was probably on that one too as we often travelled home together.

Until first class was abolished on local services the single end cars provided the necessary exclusivity in the compartment behind the driver. That kept the single end cars in demand, but only one was usually needed on each set as first class travel was not much used on the locals.

On the subject of the "Continental" corridor connections mentioned above, I was told that the corridors were slightly wider and had been fitted to allow a food trolley to pass through the train. The BUT seats were fitted with special arm rests to hold trays of pre-prepared food which were served at the seats. This was supposed to do away with the need for tables. Needless to say, that plan did not last very long and the lack of tables was a problem for the Enterprise for the rest of their days. In operation the up side of the design was that on coupling and uncoupling there was nothing to do at corridor connection level, the down side being that the rubber perished over time and let in wind and rain. It never formed a perfect connection and always gave me the creeps when passing through.

According to Diesel Dawn the first BUT set went into service in June 1957. A single half cab hauled the very short lived Enniskillen to Belfast express service with a brake/first which was run round at Omagh. I have seen a photograph of that  somewhere.

[Irishswissernie]

1 hour ago, Markleman said:

A single half cab hauled the very short lived Enniskillen to Belfast express service with a brake/first which was run round at Omagh. I have seen a photograph of that  somewhere

Is it this one jim? Farewell the Derry Road by Eric Challoner, Page 66, 705 + Brake Compo 396 at Bundoran Junction August 1957 (nc Simmons)

[airfixfan]

Yes indeed

[leslie10646]

A photo of the Enniskillen Flyer appears in Charles Friel and Norman Johnston's "Fermanagh's Railways".

I can't help except to offer Lance's photo taken of the UTA Enterprise entering  Amiens Street in 1959, in full GNRB Regalia, bar the little UTA Roundel - if you know how to identify a half cab from the window shapes - feel free to look at the back of a fairly short train.

[BSGSV]

16 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

I can't help except to offer Lance's photo taken of the UTA Enterprise entering  Amiens Street in 1959, in full GNRB Regalia, bar the little UTA Roundel - if you know how to identify a half cab from the window shapes - feel free to look at the back of a fairly short train.

 

God bless your eyesight if you can see the back of that train well enough to know! Looks like a 6-piece set, 900, trailer, 700 series, two trailers and another power car.

[Markleman]

Thanks both for the photo lead. I found it in Fermanagh's Railways and it looks like the one at Bundoran Junction which I recall. There is another photo in that book of the set at Portadown.

They are pretty easy to distinguish in side view. Along each side they both have three doors. The full cabs have a drivers door at one end and a passenger door at the other. The full cab has a door between the first and second class compartments which is four window bays back from the cab door. The half cabs doors are not at the extremities as there is a cab on one side and a toilet at the other at each end. Instead the passenger doors are more towards the middle on the half cab. At one end on the half cab, beyond the door, is a blanked window for the toilet, and at the other end is the cab with a drivers door into the back of the cab and a window beyond for the driver.

If there are two doors together then it is a half cab, if there are four windows between two of the doors then it is a full cab.

Also, the full cab had only one toilet which was in the second class section and opened into the corridor between first and second class. Whether you can see the blanked off window obviously depends which side you are looking at, but as Steve pointed out to me, the NIR full cabs varied as to which side the toilet was fitted. Another mystery.

[leslie10646]

For what it's worth, I've blown up the original photo (the one I've posted is very low resolution) and used the magnifier function on my Mac to look at the rear of the train. To me, it's the same spacing of windows as the 900 at the front. 

So based on this 1959 evidence, @Colin_McLeod , it is a full cab at each end! The 700 Class spacing of windows in the third coach is very obvious and quite different looking to the 900. I have little doubt that as the years went by, the set will have been less symmetrical.