From the Catacombs

[airfixfan]

Back to Scarva there were no Orange parades 1940 to 1943 but some in 1944. So is this a special from Portadown in old DNGR stock and is the engine running round to shunt special into the siding beyond the bridge till after all activities are over? Finally on the bridge head left and you are in the Scarva village itself. By July 1944 effects of WW2 were starting to recede in NI.

[Midland Man]

This may sound stupid but Sunday school special to Greenmore.

[Lambeg man]

27 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Back to Scarva there were no Orange parades 1940 to 1943 but some in 1944

Interesting information that Airfixfan. What is your source?

28 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

So is this a special from Portadown in old DNGR stock and is the engine running round to shunt special into the siding beyond the bridge till after all activities are over?

If it was a special from Portadown, it would surely have arrived in the UP main platform, the engine would have run around and it would have returned to Portadown? Why move it over to the DOWN platform?

If it came from the Newry direction it would have arrived in the DOWN platform and the engine is running around as already described. On account of the carriage door being open, surely the engine is moving away from the camera, not towards it. If about to place the stock in the south relief siding on the other side of the bridge, the locomotive is heading to the wrong end of the train?

35 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Finally on the bridge head left and you are in the Scarva village itself

 This confirms that the heads/people ARE heading off the Sham Fight and would therefore have probably just disembarked from this train?

In 1963 John Langford photographed a very large crowd coming off a special from Newry at the down platform. So specials to Scarva operated not just from Portadown. 

[Galteemore]

Having spent three years of my life analysing NI’s WW2 political history, I can confirm the general truth of what Airfix fan is saying re parades! The journalist James Kelly certainly refers to it in his memoirs ‘Bonfires on the Hillside’.https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9780952556503/Bonfires-Hillside-Eyewitness-Account-Political-0952556502/plp  l will check my sources when I can access them.....

Edited April 27, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

53 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Back to Scarva there were no Orange parades 1940 to 1943 but some in 1944. So is this a special from Portadown in old DNGR stock and is the engine running round to shunt special into the siding beyond the bridge till after all activities are over? Finally on the bridge head left and you are in the Scarva village itself. By July 1944 effects of WW2 were starting to recede in NI.

Superb info, Airfixfan.

I'm always fascinated by the "back story" to many old photographs, whether railway-related or not. Many thanks.

[jhb171achill]

Nooooo, he didn’t bring his camera that day!!!

He wasn’t impressed. What loco hauled him? “Oh, it was just that railcar....”

 

[Galteemore]

Re the Clogher Valley trip, JHB senior was wise to leave the Box Brownie at home - the Battle of Britain was currently being waged, with daily fears of German parachutists descending from Ju52s dressed as nuns.Touting a camera about in July 1940 near the border would’ve been a risky venture...

Edited April 27, 2020 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

4 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Again, as the Battle of Britain was currently being waged, with daily fears of German parachutists descending from Ju52s dressed as nuns, touting a camera about in July 1940 near the border would’ve been a risky venture...

There were no Orange parades from 1940 to 1943. There were some in 1944 see Barton Belfast Blitz book. So that photo could be July 13 indeed. By summer 1944 the main action was in France post D Day!

 In the wrong road because coaches are being pushed into long siding other side of bridge once loco runs round?

[jhb171achill]

Nooooo, no photos from this day either!

To Strabane by the CDR line..... 

Larne Harbour to Strabane AND BACK..... I wish I had more information about this outing. The ticket is undated but given what I know of his travels probably mid 1940s.

"First Class", my eye!  If possible, he'll have been in the cab.....

Edited April 27, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Lambeg man]

26 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

 In the wrong road because coaches are being pushed into long siding other side of bridge once loco runs round?

Possibly, but that assumes the locomotive would be approaching the camera if it is running around? Unless Jon finds a note to accompany this picture, no one can be 100% what exactly is going on here. That said the exchange of ideas on this matter has been VERY informative and in many ways very entertaining in these otherwise gloomy days.

What have you got next for discussion JHB?

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lambeg man

[jhb171achill]

20 minutes ago, Lambeg man said:

Possibly, but that assumes the locomotive would be approaching the camera if it is running around? Unless Jon finds a note to accompany this picture, no one can be 100% what exactly is going on here. That said the exchange of ideas on this matter has been VERY informative and in many ways very entertaining in these otherwise gloomy days.

What have you got next for discussion JHB?

Sadly, Senior's notes are as brief as his photographic list!

I have made notes over the years before I forget of everything I know - those who knew him would have known that if you asked him something, he would answer - but he would rarely initiate a conversation, as in "I remember the day I went to Dungiven....." If you didn't know he had been there, any story about it went to the Great Locomotive Shed in the Sky!

One trip he did was this: Kingsbridge - Mallow - Tralee. Overnight. Next day, out to Castlegregory, back to the junction, on to Dingle (or maybe the other way round) and back; night mail back to Dublin.

This is the full text of the entry in his diary (let's say it was a Saturday 22nd, I can't remember):

   "Sat. 22nd. Tralee T&D"

And that was it!

Entries in his diary in the late 1950s and early 60s read like this:

   2nd Duncrue St

   3rd Hillsboro

   4th A St*

   5th H'boro

   6th Strabane

   7th K'begs         ..............you get the idea!   (* "A St" = "Amiens St Station")

So, I am afraid a note is unlikely, but I agree with Lambeg Man that the comments this has thrown up are indeed fascinating - many thanks to all involved.

What next for discussion? Next few days is GNR, but there's more to come......!

Edited April 27, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Lambeg man]

Thanks for posting that informative text JHB. I think it helps us all understand what you're up against in trying to make sense of some of the material.

In fact I would go further on this post to ask every member of this site who has enjoyed Jon's postings on this thread over the last 3 or 4 weeks to click a 'like' against the above post as a recognition to JHB for the sheer entertainment he has provided throughout these recent 'locked in' days. He has not cured CV-19 but he has helped a lot of us through these dark days by his publishing efforts.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Lambeg man

[jhb171achill]

In the heartland if the GNR’s Western District, Enniskillen Station is viewed a few days before closure, at the end of September 1957.

The top picture is from the Sligo Leitrim yard, and shows that state of their track compared with the immaculately-maintained GNR track in the lower picture.

jhb171-Senior said that had the SLNCR stayed open, its entire track, end to end, would need to be relayed as a matter of priority in a very few years, and many bridges renewed.

Like the Co Donegal, both would have required root-and-branch modernisation as a matter of urgency. In a more normal world, like the GNR they would have been divided between the UTA and CIE.

Black’n’tan Donegal railcars, anyone? 

Within a very short space of time, laminate coaches and 141s would have been seen in Enniskillen.....

[Midland Man]

If they relaid the entire railway the would have probally used concrete sleeper for economic reasons. Sure Athlone had Woden sleepers until about 5 years ago an is quite common (Woden sleepers) on the Galway line.

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

If they relaid the entire railway the would have probally used concrete sleeper for economic reasons. Sure Athlone had Woden sleepers until about 5 years ago an is quite common (Woden sleepers) on the Galway line.

At this stage the GNR was installing concrete on the main line (Amiens St. to Gt. Victoria St.).

Senior tried out a short stretch somewhere between Dundalk and Ballybay - just a quarter mile or so. He was planning a submit for extending this along a lot of the INW when the lines were closed. He also got hold of the GNRs brand-new tamping machine and this was trialled on the INW too.

[Midland Man]

Sure the Mullingar to Athlone last track maintenance was in the 1950s when it was given new sleepers and new plates of whitch the track was layed. The old engine shed (the near the Midland station) the track leading into it could be from the 1920s.

[jhb171achill]

A final visit to Enniskillen just days before it all closed. 
 

The first picture was on the very last day, with one of the newer SLNCR engines over near the SLNCR shed.

The other shows either Lough Erne or Lough Melvin during shunting in the SLNCR bay platform. 

[Midland Man]

Pity there was only one preserved.

 

[Patrick Davey]

If you zoom in on the 2nd one JB the name plate says 'Sir Henry'.  These are excellent shots, and poignant too - thanks!

Edited April 29, 2020 by Patrick Davey

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Davey said:

If you zoom in on the 2nd one JB the name plate says 'Sir Henry'.  These are excellent shots, and poignant too - thanks!

You’ve better eyesight than me, Paddy - I was trying to make that out!

[Dhu Varren]

The second picture is of Sir Henry in the bay platform

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

Pity there was only one preserved.

 

Trouble is, in preservational terms, they’re useless! So the other one wouldn’t have added anything. If there IS an obvious “one that got away”, it’s a Midland 4.4.0 or a “Woolwich”!

[Garfield]

23 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Trouble is, in preservational terms, they’re useless! So the other one wouldn’t have added anything. If there IS an obvious “one that got away”, it’s a Midland 4.4.0 or a “Woolwich”!

I'd have settled for an MGWR E/J26. 

[Galteemore]

Agreed. Or a GSWR 4-4-0.....https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS/GREAT-SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-STEAM/i-fWh53KQ/A

 

[Galteemore]

True, JHB - too big for Downpatrick and too small for the main line! Although I find the ‘Lough Class’ a bit too bulbous in design  (I think the Sir Henry class was the most aesthetically balanced within the SLNC fleet) it arguably deserves a place stuffed and mounted at Cultra as the last conventional standard gauge Irish steam loco built (the Turf Burner doesn’t count!).

Edited April 29, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

A J26 would have been of use at Downpatrick. Perfect if the line were ever to be extended, too. The GNR 2.4.2T in Cultra would fit the bill there too....

[Midland Man]

The Waterford and Tramore  WOULD HAVE BEEN A CLASS preservation line  

[Lambeg man]

3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Agreed. ...https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS

Nice find Galteemore....... even if the "thoroughly researched" captions leave a bit to be desired.......

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Lambeg man said:

Nice find Galteemore....... even if the "thoroughly researched" captions leave a bit to be desired.......

Amazing photos on that website, but unfortunately the captions are absolutely riddled with errors.

The O'Dea stuff with the NLI - the captions are even more full of errors. When I went through the collection in total some years ago, they took me up on an offer to voluntarily go through the lot and correct things like "B141 train at Limerick" for "B141 class locomotive at Limerick JUNCTION"! Unfortunately I haven't had time, and it ain't gonna happen any time soon, with 4 railway books and one non-railway under construction......

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

The Waterford and Tramore  WOULD HAVE BEEN A CLASS preservation line  

It most certainly would, if there were enough enthusiasts in the area to operate it. the two J15s would be ideal (even though none ever ran on it), as would (probably) the Sligo engine. Half a dozen of the RPSI's high-seating heritage set, and away ye go.

[minister_for_hardship]

39 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Amazing photos on that website, but unfortunately the captions are absolutely riddled with errors.

The O'Dea stuff with the NLI - the captions are even more full of errors. When I went through the collection in total some years ago, they took me up on an offer to voluntarily go through the lot and correct things like "B141 train at Limerick" for "B141 class locomotive at Limerick JUNCTION"! Unfortunately I haven't had time, and it ain't gonna happen any time soon, with 4 railway books and one non-railway under construction......

Terrible cringeworthy captions for the archive of a national institution, they should have either left them off or given the job to someone who may know a thing or two instead of Emer on work experience.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Terrible cringeworthy captions for the archive of a national institution, they should have either left them off or given the job to someone who may know a thing or two instead of Emer on work experience.

Exactly.

There is a general lack of interest or awareness of railways in Ireland - north or south - compared with Britain. To be fair, the English specifically probably lead the world by far in terms of railway interest, so it's more a case of them being light years ahead, than us being "behind". Many countries have even lower levels of interest than we do.

Anyone who reads this website will be aware of my own interest in the historical side of things, which is why if I have any relevant info about any such things, I try to get the message out.

The NLI stuff really does need to be properly edited - especially the O'Dea collection. In a different life, writing 2 books about non-railway related stuff, I went through the entire Lawrence collection back in the day when you had to go in and see it all on badly-lit microfilm. It took me several days to get through every single image, and gave me headaches and actually I felt sick after peering at this stuff for days! I found more than a few errors in the labelling there too, though some was certainly errors of Lawrence's, not the NLI. Larrence has one view of Clifden station labelled as "Achill", and photos taken on Achill Island labelled as a different island..... They had a series taken during a (disgraceful) eviction in north Donegal listed as being in Mayo, and so on.

There will always be the odd thing that slips through the net, but to such extent as anyone can correct these things, I feel it is for the benefit of someone else well into the future that we do this, if we can verify the corrections.

[Lambeg man]

Well said JHB.

One of my personal bugbears over the years has been the endless repetition in various publications and books that "RPSI coach No. 9 was a steam hauled coach that was adapted to be a Railcar Trailer and is now a steam hauled coach again" or words similar. No. 9 was specifically built as a Railcar Trailer. A few years back I even had to correct the in formation about this carriage on the RPSI website!

The need for accuracy when recording events, dates and places is paramount given the frequent occurrence of plain and obvious mistakes that are consequently repeated by authors accepting one instance of a report as true. Over the years I have copied the corrections made in the 'Book Reviews' in the Journal or in Five Foot Three onto paper slips that I then place in the relevant page of the said book. To be fair, many are typo's, but many are the same incorrect guff repeated even by some recent authors.

Rant over, feeling better now........................

[leslie10646]

Heaven, Lm, you'll have me searching out a copy of "Steam's Silver Lining", which I published - it includes a RPSI coaching list correct (I hope) for the first  25 years of the Society.

Like it or not, we're a very small minority on the Island of Ireland and we're lucky Jimmy's stuff is safe, even if badly described. The  National Archive in the UK does "employ" (at the volunteers' own expense) a lot of people who do know their stuff to make sure the catalogy=uing, etc of railway stuff is "correct".

Now, my turn for a rant.  When people hear that you're interested in railways they immediately say - "I expect you've travelled behind the "Flying Scotsman"? Between us, yes, I have and on the footplate on two occasions on the mainline, but I wouldn't go from here to the front door to see her. Why? The wrong A3 was preserved. There is a myth that she was the first steam engine to do 100mph - she wasn't (and certainly neither did "City of Truro"). She did 98mph according to Cecil J Allen, who was timing the train on the day - the 100mph thing was claimed by the LNER publicity Department. As the actress said - "They would, wouldn't they?"

The first engine to do the Ton was 2750 "Papyrus" (also an A3) - in fact 108mph on trials before they decided to build the A4s and ran the Silver Jubilee in four months from drawing board. For younger readers - Silver Link reeled off forty miles at 100mph on the famous Press Run - they had no speedo on the loco and they crew thought they were doing about 90mph - the max was 112mph!

Rant over. Glad you're obviously in good form, Stephen!

Leslie

Edited April 29, 2020 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

Nothing like a good rant!

Serious point, though - it does concern me when people take any form of factual clarification personally, be they people just interested in something, or especially preservationists. It is never, ever, ever meant that way; it is meant in a spirit of helpfulness for anyone who's interested.

Right now, I am actually writing a description of a preserved item, as the details on the website describing it are very incorrect, and perpetuate an "urban myth" about the item, the origin of which I am unsure of. Let's just say that I clarified the details with the leading experts on this particular item!

I'll dig out some more GNR photos tomorrow and then we can go NCC, or GSR......

Onwards and upwards...........

Edited April 29, 2020 by jhb171achill