Murphy's CIE Mk IId coaches - What's What

[FrankS]

Hi guys,

I only just realised that the Mk IId coaches come into my modelling time period (CIE) and I've tried to work out which of the Murphy Models coaches already available and new releases are appropriate. But, frankly I can't make head nor tail of them :confused:

 

Murphy Models website is completly useless, saying only:

Mark IId Coaches in CIE, IR, IE & Galway liveries. Good Stock available

Irish Rail Mark IId Coaches (2011 model) in CIE, IR & IE liveries. Due Autumn 2012

Irish Rail Mark IId EGV Due Autumn 2012

But, not listing or illustrating which are which.

The IRM database lists only IE coaches and Hattons lists numbers (without illustrations) which I can't find anywhere else ie 5601,5411,5232,5217 & 5229)

 

HELP

 

Can one of you knowlegable people out the please tell me Just which numbers of the MM IIds ALREADY released are suitable for CIE and which of those TO BE released are suitable for CIE, please.

 

ALSO, The "Galway Livery" can you tell me just what this is, please and what time period it covers.

 

Any and all HELP much appreciated,

Cheers,

FrankS,

busy tearing his hair out while standing on his head - NOT an easy trick :ROFL:

[hexagon789]

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Wow, that is impressive!

As an aside, were the Mk2D's ever hauled by locos still in black, or only by SuperTrain locos and later?

I'm sure that @Irishswissernie

 @jhb171achill
 will have photographic evidence if so!

Plenty of photos of ARs, B121, B141, B181 Black 'n' Tan locos on Mk2 AC stock and mixed pairs (one BnT, one ST) as well.

There is a picture in the O'Dea collection of a double BnT 141/181 pair on a Cork Road Mk2d set in early 1973 before the large sets were shortened (from  EGV+8 to EGV+6) and the number of links increased (from 5 links with large sets plus the Tralee link (only EGV+4) introduced in January 1973 to 8 links from April 1973 plus the Enterprise from May).

There were definitely some 141/181s in BnT until after the 071s entered service, probably as late as 1978 at least.

 

And I'm probably going into too much detail again(!), so to summarise - yes, BnT livery locos worked Mk2d AC stock from entry to service until at least 1977 if not slightly later.

 

[hexagon789]

Thought I might find something in Jonathan Allen's excellent flickr albums (I can easily get lost for hours in those!) and sure enough I've come up trumps. I couldn't find any BnT with AC stock in 1977 but here's a BnT pair on the 0830 "Supertrain" to Cork at Hueston station in 1976: 

(Photo credit to Jonathan Allen)

He notes this was booked for a pair of 121s in the working timetable, but 174 is subbing for the other 121.

Somehow I've always liked BnT locos on supertrain stock I think the contrast is more interesting and I like the livery anyway!

Edited October 22, 2020 by hexagon789

[DJ Dangerous]

Now that's an exellent photo, and again, more valuable information, thank you!

Not long now and modellers will be able to recreate that train!

[murphaph]

Is that a three aspect colour light signal just sitting there on the ground?

[hexagon789]

10 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Now that's an exellent photo, and again, more valuable information, thank you!

Not long now and modellers will be able to recreate that train!

And the Cù na Mara of the same year, usually a 121 pair in '76.

 

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Is that a three aspect colour light signal just sitting there on the ground?

Clearance issues?

[Noel]

11 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Thought I might find something in Jonathan Allen's excellent flickr albums (I can easily get lost for hours in those!) and sure enough I've come up trumps. I couldn't find any BnT with AC stock in 1977 but here's a BnT pair on the 0830 "Supertrain" to Cork at Hueston station in 1976: 

(Photo credit to Jonathan Allen)

He notes this was booked for a pair of 121s in the working timetable, but 174 is subbing for the other 121.

Somehow I've always liked BnT locos on supertrain stock I think the contrast is more interesting and I like the livery anyway!

That's a fabulous photo to have. B&T livery locos hauled the original super train livery mk2d sets for some years before all the locos got repainted in super train livery to match the A class locos which match the roof profile of the mk2d's as well as the livery. I remember the 1972 CIE TV adverts vividly, looked like the height of modernity coming to an Ireland of Peat, Turf and Bogs, still getting used to the idea of colour traffic lights instead of black and white ones. When the Riordans were peak time TV viewing and if even the word 'toilet' was mentioned on the late late show, croziers were beating down with Bishops letters of condemnation the following Sunday at services. A time when the riordans had tractors and mini skirts  

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

That's a fabulous photo to have. B&T livery locos hauled the original super train livery mk2d sets for some years before all the locos got repainted in super train livery to match the A class locos which match the roof profile of the mk2d's as well as the livery. I remember the 1972 CIE TV adverts vividly, looked like the height of modernity coming to an Ireland of Peat, Turf and Bogs, still getting used to the idea of colour traffic lights instead of black and white ones. When the Riordans were peak time TV viewing and if even the word 'toilet' was mentioned on the late late show, croziers were beating down with Bishops letters of condemnation the following Sunday at services. A time when the riordans had tractors and mini skirts  

Given the first two AC sets entered traffic from the 4th December 1972 and 001 wasn't painted into ST until early the next year, there would've been a few months with only BnT locos hauling them.

It's a fascinating period marked by new air-conditioned stock coupled with significant service improvements in the beginning of the decade, a new livery, then a series of worsening cuts in its middle, and finished off with some improvements again to the train service and new powerful 071 locos as well.

Similar significant change in Northern Ireland Railways as well with the New Enterprise of 1970, the end of steam, the 80 Class Railcars, rationalisation of the Belfast termini stations and so on.

I used to not be that interested in anything pre-Mk3 era but I think the 1970s interests me at least as much if not more than the 1980s now.

Edited October 23, 2020 by hexagon789

[flange lubricator]

An interesting detail I have recently come across 001 had its roof painted black in those early shots of the supertrain, Looking at the IRRS Flickr site there is an early photo of 183 and 187 deptarting Cork in supertrain livery and the center roofs on both locos look like they are painted black too which is a new one on me . 

[Warbonnet]

23 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

An interesting detail I have recently come across 001 had its roof painted black in those early shots of the supertrain, Looking at the IRRS Flickr site there is an early photo of 183 and 187 deptarting Cork in supertrain livery and the center roofs on both locos look like they are painted black too which is a new one on me . 

Correct. I saw the 183 and 187 photo in the flesh and was surprised to see the roof was painted black. 001 had it in those publicity shots, but all other As we have come across had a tan roof. 

I wonder did the lima 215 paint job get influenced by those 001 publicity photos all those years ago? 

[WRENNEIRE]

Lima roof on 215

 

 

 

Just as an aside folks if anyone "likes" this photo could you please wash your hands before you press the like button
Cant be too careful in these strange times  
 

[Noel]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

Given the first two AC sets entered traffic from the 4th December 1972 and 001 wasn't painted into ST until early the next year, there would've been a few months with only BnT locos hauling them.

It's a fascinating period marked by new air-conditioned stock coupled with significant service improvements in the beginning of the decade, a new livery, then a series of worsening cuts in its middle, and finished off with some improvements again to the train service and new powerful 071 locos as well.

Similar significant change in Northern Ireland Railways as well with the New Enterprise of 1970, the end of steam, the 80 Class Railcars, rationalisation of the Belfast termini stations and so on.

I used to not be that interested in anything pre-Mk3 era but I think the 1970s interests me at least as much if not more than the 1980s now.

Yes a fascinating time when ancient 1950s A class loco's hauled modern air-con coaches and CWR was progressively growing out from Houston through kildare on the Cork line. Ironic that the A classes looked all modern and aerodynamic yet mechanically they were old tech, whereas the boxey looking GMs were much more up to date. A time when you could pass through Limerick junction and see a uniform rake of modern containers in an adjacent line or siding to a mixed rake of loose coupled 2 axles goods wagons and/or bulleid corrugated beet wagons, with 1950s coaching running through the station at the same time as the swish of mk2d's behind a pair of baby GMs. Pure magic for diversity and variety of operations, the goods shed siding in each small station had its days numbered as the sun started to set on manually handled pick up goods traffic. At least the non-supertrain passenger formations still had fabulous variety in their make up. As JHB often commented often were there were rarely more than two coaches of the same type in a rake. Glad I lived through those days and traveled by train a lot. Watching the tracks fly by underneath large gaps in gangway floors was exciting and the noise an assault on the senses as they rattled and clanked.

[Garfield]

I wouldn't say the A Class were "ancient" in 1972 - they were only 17 years old and in terms of technology were on a par with the GMs of the time, which were only 6-11 years younger (depending on class), and in their 12-645E engines they had a newer block design than the 121s and 141s. By comparison, the 201 Class were already 12 years old by the time the CAF Mk4s were introduced...

[hexagon789]

4 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

An interesting detail I have recently come across 001 had its roof painted black in those early shots of the supertrain, Looking at the IRRS Flickr site there is an early photo of 183 and 187 deptarting Cork in supertrain livery and the center roofs on both locos look like they are painted black too which is a new one on me . 

I believe that was the original intention, but they soon decided not to perpetuate it with other locos.

 

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes a fascinating time when ancient 1950s A class loco's hauled modern air-con coaches and CWR was progressively growing out from Houston through kildare on the Cork line. Ironic that the A classes looked all modern and aerodynamic yet mechanically they were old tech, whereas the boxey looking GMs were much more up to date. A time when you could pass through Limerick junction and see a uniform rake of modern containers in an adjacent line or siding to a mixed rake of loose coupled 2 axles goods wagons and/or bulleid corrugated beet wagons, with 1950s coaching running through the station at the same time as the swish of mk2d's behind a pair of baby GMs. Pure magic for diversity and variety of operations, the goods shed siding in each small station had its days numbered as the sun started to set on manually handled pick up goods traffic. At least the non-supertrain passenger formations still had fabulous variety in their make up. As JHB often commented often were there were rarely more than two coaches of the same type in a rake. Glad I lived through those days and traveled by train a lot. Watching the tracks fly by underneath large gaps in gangway floors was exciting and the noise an assault on the senses as they rattled and clanked.

Funny you should mention that the "A"s looked more modern than the GMs, I'm reading a set of journals I recently procured and a short piece in the news section of one refers to the GM classes giving excellent service and rarely failing but the "A"s suffering many failures even after re-engining (apparently electrical failures). The uprated ones were far more reliable as the electrical equipment had been refurbished and the traction motors rewound.

As for the decade I can only experience it through photos and the old few film clips but the atmosphere is completely different to the modern railway in almost every way.

 

2 hours ago, Garfield said:

I wouldn't say the A Class were "ancient" in 1972 - they were only 17 years old and in terms of technology were on a par with the GMs of the time, which were only 6-11 years younger (depending on class), and in their 12-645E engines they had a newer block design than the 121s and 141s. By comparison, the 201 Class were already 12 years old by the time the CAF Mk4s were introduced...

Not ancient but definitely still not as reliable as the GMs

[Noel]

4 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Lima roof on 215

 

 

 

Just as an aside folks if anyone "likes" this photo could you please wash your hands before you press the like button
Cant be too careful in these strange times  
 

@WRENNEIRE take 3  

[hexagon789]

Found something I was looking for earlier - a YouTube video in which, at 3 mins 40, there is a Black 'n' Tan pair of Baby GMs on a mixed formation of Mk2Ds. I'd guess at mid-1970s, probably about 1975/76.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by hexagon789