New 'Generic' 4 and 6 wheel coaches in 00 - what can we use them for?

[Richard EH]

Hi all,

 

Hattons have announced today a new range of four and six wheel coaches in 00 scale, today . Link here They've seen a gap in the market based around recent Victorian locomotives - with nothing to pull! The first batch will be available in 2021 and comprises a number of combinations and liveries - too many to list here, but the link will show you what they plan to do! The only big omission so far seems to be a full brake - perhaps that will emerge in time.

They are clear that the models are 'generic' - not based on any one prototype, but aim to provide a generic style and type of the period. Livery application is likely to be good of course, a real plus point with some of the more ornate liveries - LNWR in particular being an, umm....challenge to say the least! Hattons have released key dimensions for us to mull over as well, also taken from the RMweb thread here

"4 wheel

Body length - 105.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9mm

Wheelbase - 60mm

 

6 wheel

Body length - 129.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9 mm

Wheelbase - 42mm centres

 

In regards to accepting 21mm wheelsets, it may well be possible but with the 6 wheelers especially it wouldn't give much room left to play with to negotiate curves."

 

Clearly, at a width of 31.9mm (8ft), they're going to be narrow compared to the broad gauge's more generous loading gauge of around 9ft.

For modellers of irish railways, what do they offer us? Something that's a great base to work with, I think, and I've been scouring a few books this evening to try and work out what the first batch might offer us:

GNRi - the 6 wheel, all thirds in GNR teak look like a decent portrayal of a GNRi Q3 6 wheel 5 compartment coach -  a couple of mil too short and 4mm too narrow, but not bad for a coincidence. These did go early, before 1948 though - but if the teak is a good portrayal - can't see why it wouldn't be - I can see me getting a few of these!

DNGR - If only for the livery alone, hattons are producing some LNWR vehicles, example here, which might suit if you squint for the DNGR....

Some of the other liveries/vehicles may also be of interest....

Others

A quick look at Des Coakham's Irish Broad Gauge Rolling Stock also might give the following:

BCDR No.143  might be a good cut and shut job on a new chassis from the 5 compartment third and the brake third....

 

There are more, I'm sure!

 

Cheers for now

 

Richard.

[Galteemore]

Not my scale, Richard, but a most interesting development - and fairly reasonably priced. Thanks for posting - I can see these vehicles making an appearance on the forum in various guises! 

[jhb171achill]

Excellent news. I’d probably go for a couple, though I’d prefer Irish prototypes.

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

They might be a bit thin on Irish loading gauge, though may not be a problem for most.... especially when run on their own!

Eoin

Edited October 8, 2019 by murrayec

[Glenderg]

Des Coackham's book on the BCDR has the profiles of several 6 wheelers at the back, and a few look bang on to me, particularly the 5 door variant. R

[jhb171achill]

If they’re going to be like the drawings show, they’re closest to 1880s GSWR in design.

BCDR: wrong window profile 

MGWR: wrong roof, window and body sides profile

GNR(I) & DSER: wrong everything profile

BNCR: BNCR stock had flat sides, so unsuitable for NCC overall.

Oddball stuff: The Waterford & Wexford Railway had a couple of carriages which would be similar in generic design to these. With most today having little or no knowledge of the eclectic mix of stock the West Cork system had, one might run one on a layout based on the CBSCR without attracting too much comment. 

The CBSCR had several short bogie coaches of a design not that unlike these.

A further thought - do they have full length foot boards? All but a very few one-off exceptions of 6-wheelers in Ireland had these. In Britain many didn’t.

Edited October 9, 2019 by jhb171achill

[popeye]

They are Generic so they will suit anyone who is not too fussy and the ends are flat not curved.

With some small changes they should look ok. 

[StevieB]

We live in interesting times. First of all industrial tank engines and now 4w/6w coaches.

Stephen

[Patrick Davey]

The LNWR ones are due in stock in 2021....

Sure the line to Greenore may well be opened again by then.......

[jhb171achill]

Curved ends would have limited them to a few W & L types. Good that they’re flat-ended.

Important thing: Irish railways didn’t use 4-wheelers at all during the era (approx 1880-1915) when body designs of this type were in vogue.

Thus, the only useful ones for Irish lines are the six-wheeled ones, though they’d need footboards for all lines.

A pair of the bodies of the 4-wheeled ones would make a nice “generic” bogie coach.

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

 

Important thing: Irish railways didn’t use 4-wheelers at all during the era (approx 1880-1915) when body designs of this type were in vogue.

The Waterford & Kilkenny did.

"Even in the 1890s the passenger stock was four wheeled, of antiquated design, and regarded as among the worst in Ireland; but a few vehicles lasted a fair time, and one survived, in departmental service, until the 1960s"

The Great Southern &Western Railway (McNeil/Murray)

Edited October 9, 2019 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

I meant new-builds - What I think Murray meant was that in the 1890s such beasts were still running, as opposed to new builds at that time.

The last four-wheeler in actual service that I’m aware of was a Midland third of very ancient ancestry, which was gutted and rebuilt as first class saloon, lasting until perhaps 1910-15 or so.

The Hatton coaches are of more-or-less 1880s-1910s design. In. Ritalin they were still building new four wheelers WELL within that period, 

Anything four wheeled here was of much earlier design (1865-75 era), and as stated by Murray, likely to be in departmental use.

A GSWR passenger brake of 1877 vintage, but an even earlier 1860s “flat-roofed” design, was put into departmental use by the GSR a long time ago, and still in such use with CIE in 1960 when it was scrapped, STILL in GSWR dark lake livery.

[Edo]

JHB

So the six wheelers would kinda work on the 1930-1950's/early60's GSWR/GSR/early CIE rural branch setting?...........even slowly composting on an overgrown siding....or used as offices beside the engine shed etc etc...

Edited October 9, 2019 by Edo

[Mayner]

Six wheel coaches appear to have been used in main line, suburban and branch line passenger trains at least up to the Emergency when a large number of ex-GSWR 6w coaches (mainly 3rd Class) were withdrawn/converted to carry turf. Apart from the few remaining branch lines with passenger services six wheel coaches continued in use on Dublin & Cork suburban passenger services and excursion trains until replaced by more modern stock or services ended. Cork retained a rake of six wheel coaches for use on excursion trains into the early 1950s. .

There is a 1947 photo of a J15 departing Cobh for Cork in 1947 with an excursion train made up of at least 9 6 wheelers and a couple of bogie coaches in Irish Railway in Colour Vol2 (Tom Ferris Midland Publishing 1995)

There is a 1952 photo (photographer unknown) of a Midland 2-4-0 arriving in Sligo with a train of 7 6 wheelers possibly on an excursion from Ballaghadereen.

Redundant coaches that passed into Departmental use appear to have been mainly used by the Civil Engineering and Signal & Electrical Departments as mobile workshops and dormitories rather than the loco department. The Loco Department had mobile Dormitories used at major cattle fairs, these were special purpose vehicles rather than converted passenger stock.

 

[jhb171achill]

On 10/9/2019 at 10:42 PM, Edo said:

JHB

So the six wheelers would kinda work on the 1930-1950's/early60's GSWR/GSR/early CIE rural branch setting?...........even slowly composting on an overgrown siding....or used as offices beside the engine shed etc etc...

Six-wheelers were the majority of passenger stock well into the 20th century.  In Ireland, four-wheelers in passenger service had as good as disappeared by 1890, bar the extremely few examples I mentioned above.

Bogies became more commonplace by the 1920s, but six-wheelers were still extensively in use until the late 1950s, by which time they were increasingly confined to branch and secondary lines, West Cork, and the Cork and Dublin suburban services.

The last ones in traffic were an excursion rake in Cork, withdrawn in 1963.

Several ex-GSWR 6w passenger brake vans were in use until about 1966/7, and these were the only six-wheelers ever painted black’n’tan. No passenger-carrying ones ever were. 

One was used on the Galway line on the mail train as late as 1967. By that stage, it’s companions were laminates, Park Royals, Bredins, and the odd Craven.

As Mayner states, some found departmental use. The last in such use appear to have been withdrawn about 1971.

The last ones in use in passenger traffic were a mix of GSWR and MGWR origin. DSER examples were largely scrapped in early CIE days; I’m not sure why. Vehicles surviving in departmental use were all (as far as I know) of MGWR types. The last few passenger brakes in use (1963-7) were all GSWR types.

I bought one for £60 and donated it to the RPSI......

[Colin R]

All I can say is let me at them with a scaple, saw and file,  up until now all we have had is either the Hornby Clerestory or the Ratio LMS coaches to butcher, these will add something else to the mix and I am sure some one will come up with a model which will impress and get that feel we are looking for.

Just got to wait for 2021 for them to come out.

 

Colin