Working with brass

[Midland Man]

Hey all

I working on a model of a Midland C class before it rebuild. The question is should I use thin pieces of brass (Like 7-12mm) here is how the side will be built as one whole price. I would also like to add this question what is the best way to cut brass. If a topic like this has already be created sorry and could you leave a link to it please. Hope you all like.

[Galteemore]

4 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Hey all

I working on a model of a Midland C class before it rebuild. The question is should I use thin pieces of brass (Like 7-12mm) here is how the side will be built as one whole price. I would also like to add this question what is the best way to cut brass. If a topic like this has already be created sorry and could you leave a link to it please. Hope you all like.

For a loco body 10 thou brass is fine - you can brace it with brass angle etc as you go. Chassis would require a thicker metal ideally. This is a rather good link. 

I think you’d need to break that rather nice  drawing down into a few elements. The cab, splashers etc generally need built up separately.

 

[Angus]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

I would also like to add this question what is the best way to cut brass.

For straight cuts this brass can be scored with a knife (two or three heavy passes with a sharp knife or ofla cutter) then flex the joint until it snaps.

It can also be cut with scissors or metal sheers, however for complex shapes is best to use a piercing saw with some very fine toothed blades.

It takes a bit of practise but with a bit of patience some nice consistent shape can be fretted out with a saw.

Hope that helps.

Angus

Edited April 5, 2020 by Angus

[Mayner]

There are basically two alternatives methods of transferring a design to metal or plasticard.

1. Marking the profile directly on the metal with an engineers scriber, using straightedges and compasses.

2. Gluing a paper pattern to the metal or plasticard, using a craft knife to scribe the cut line.

I have used both methods, but prefer to use paper profile to the metal or plasticard for more complex designs.

 

D16 Chassis pattern

 

Marking out the parts for cutting is probably the most critical stage of scratchbuilding a model, as you will need to consider the fit of the various components and the compromises necessary to build a working model, e.g. fitting motor and gear box, will it be necessary to enlarge the splashers to accommodate overscale flanges of OO gauge wheel sets, will it be necessary to cut away part of the boiler/firebox for OO wheel sets, additional clearance required between main frames and bogies to get round the curves on your planned layout. Much of this is challenging and can only be established by experimentation.

For cutting out I usually used a piercing saw with a fine toothed blade to cut out the part slightly (.5mm) oversize and finishing to the line with a combination of coarse and fine files 6" and jewllers needle files.

Duplicate parts like loco and tender main frames, cab sides, valences, tender sides & underframes are formed by laminating two pieces of brass or nickle silver together, cutting and then separating.

I sometimes cut metal parts with a tin snips, but this usually results in more waste clippings than by using a piercing saw as you have to make the initial cut further out from the final cut line and gradually cut up to the line to avoid distortion.

I have had little success scribing and snapping sheet metal as I usually use a mininimum of 0.4mm brass or nickle silver

I prepared these patterns by hand many years ago and I cannot guarantee their accuracy, these days I prepare the patterns using a CAD programme and use PPD in Scotland to cut out the parts by photo engraving, my MGWR 2-4-0 is designed on similar principals.

The biggest challenge with the Midland locos like the C is forming the curved running plate above the crankpin splashers, I usually form this with a shim brass overlay soldered to a flat running board .

Although the parts are cut out by etching Scale 7JB thread on building an LNER D16 should give you a reasonable understanding of the challenges involved in scratchbuilding a large 4-4-0 of similar design to the MGWR C with curved running board and similar bogie design.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/147957-7mm-lner-d163-two-years-down-and-nothing-to-show/

[murrayec]

@Midland Man

If a piercing saw is going to be used a good quality blade is essential, a lot of blades sold are muck and one will be frustrated in trying to control these!! Stay away from the 'Delux' modelling tool piercing blades for one.....

Here is a link to good quality blades;-  https://www.dixequipment.com/products/super-pike-sawblades/

When cutting out thin brass it can be helpful to stick the brass sheet to 2mm ply sheet as a backing which will help to guide the blade and stop the brass deforming, I have used 'Cow Gum' to stick paper and ply to the brass, its relatively easy to remove when cutting is done- I believe this gum is not available any more but one could use '3M Photo Mount' the blue can, the red can is stronger but rather hard to remove small parts from the ply....

Eoin

 

[Broithe]

3 minutes ago, murrayec said:

If a piercing saw is going to be used a good quality blade is essential, a lot of blades sold are muck and one will be frustrated in trying to control these!! Stay away from the 'Delux' modelling tool piercing blades for one.....

Also, some piercing saw frames are 'fixed', but an adjustable frame will allow you to continue to use broken blades, by shortening the frame gap.

[Galteemore]

One of these yokes is handy too...I have a simple one that clamps on the table 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

Thanks all 

By the way where can I get a vice as I find the stuff Marks Models sell is cheap chinease items. 

[murrayec]

I'd go for a small 2" 'Record' bench vice and two aluminium angles for flat/soft jaws- could be got at https://www.mcquillantools.ie/

RS Components & Woodies (more expensive) do the small Stanly vice, one is swivel and other standard quick close, again use soft jaws with;- https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/bench-hand-vices/8134350?cm_mmc=IE-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-PLA_IE_EN_Tools-_-Clamps_And_Vices|Bench_And_Hand_Vices-_-PRODUCT_GROUP&matchtype=&aud-828197004210:pla-394098854818&gclid=CjwKCAjwpqv0BRABEiwA-TySwbuLSotWAyhS5r2sfS2pqx9AE4zoguhNMCBCq__8yln9y3v17-9EmxoCroMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Photo of two, a 4" mounted on the main bench and a 2" fitted to a piece of MDF for clamping onto the small bench which allows any orientation;-

Eoin

Edited April 6, 2020 by murrayec

[Broithe]

Not strictly a modelling tool, I suppose, but I have a few of these Black & Decker Jobbers in various locations - much more useful than a standard Workmate, and much less 'in the way' when they're not in use.

The 'frame' is effectively a tray, which can contain a few tools, too.

The removable steel jaw faces are a useful feature - and they should come with clamps to use on a kitchen table, if you can get away with that..

Not in production any more, I believe, but they turn up at boot sales, etc - if those days ever return...

Edited April 6, 2020 by Broithe

[Galteemore]

Please stop these helpful posts, lads. My Amazon wish list is crying out for mercy now!!!

Edited April 6, 2020 by Galteemore

[murrayec]

Just now, Galteemore said:

Please stop these helpful posts, lads. My Amazon wish list is crying out for mercy now!!!

My buying list is endless........

Eoin

[Galteemore]

I thought abandoning RTR modelling would put an end to that - but it’s got worse! All those lovely tools and materials ...

Edited April 6, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

Thanks all

for buffers and wheels where is the best place to get them 8 know slayers do stuff but in English gauge and modeling so where could I get them.

[Warbonnet]

6 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Thanks all

for buffers and wheels where is the best place to get them 8 know slayers do stuff but in English gauge and modeling so where could I get them.

Check out the Accurascale range: https://accurascale.co.uk/collections/buffers

Yes, shameless self promotion, but might have something of use. 

[Galteemore]

Yes indeed - support the Home Team! If they haven’t got it, Slaters are good for 7mm wheels and will supply Irish loco axles on request. Buffers - try Roxey Mouldings or Northants Model Railway Supplies.

[Warbonnet]

Ah, if it's 7mm then we have only one choice! Metal and fully sprung https://accurascale.co.uk/collections/buffers-o

Cheers!

Fran

[Midland Man]

Thanks Warbonnet

Will more buffers in 7mm come out as for the 4mm I will probably use them for my future OO gauge layout as I find the bigger brand don't put the quality any more

MM

[Warbonnet]

Might well do MM, we will see with the different O gauge models we do in the future. 

[Midland Man]

Thanks all 

here is the next drawing I've done if anyone is interested in seeing it. It is the boiler. Does anyone know who would roll and build the boiler?

 

[Galteemore]

 Nice drawing. You can do it yourself with a flat piece of brass rolled round a broom handle or dowel  - bit laborious but can be done. Or use brass tube - which can be a heat sink though and thus hard to solder. If you’re going to be doing a bit of this over time, slip rollers such as these are a good investment - they will roll a flat sheet into  either a gentle curve or a complete tube and anything in between; also useful for forming wagon roofs etc.....

Edited April 6, 2020 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

I can supply detail castings in pewter or cast brass to order for the smaller MGWR locos including the K, D, P and L Classes https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8014-650-class-detail-castings-price-list/. I cannot ship at the moment as the majority of businesses in New Zealand are in lockdown to prevent spread of the Coronavirus.

At this stage no one is producing castings or detail parts specific to the larger MGWR locos like the A, B, C, F & H Classes though castings for some of the English Railways including the Great Eastern and Great Central may be close, I acquired a set of Great Central "Director" castings many years ago for an F or Midland Cattle Engine.

Markits http://www.markits.com/ and Alan Gibson Workshop http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/ are the two main sources of scratch and kit building parts in the United Kindgom. The Markits locomotive driving wheels have the edge in terms of ease and use durability for OO gauge use.

Using tube of a suitable diameter is probably the best option for forming a locomotive boiler, a range of brass tube, plate and shim is produced by KS Precision Metals https://www.ksmetals.com/and is usually stocked by hobby shops.

I usually roll steam locomotive boilers with a machine similar to Galtemore's, though its simple enough to roll a boiler or form curves by placing the metal on a resilient surface like an exercise mat or a pad of towels and rolling back and forth with dowel, broom handle or piece of round bar until the metal curves.

My tutorial on assembling a Y Boiler should give you an idea of the steps involved in assembling a boiler with a belpaire firebox https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8223-jmd-belpaire-boiler-assembly/ .

I would strongly recommend acquiring a good book on scratch building steam locos  John Ahearn's Miniature Locomotive Construction https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/miniature-locomotive-construction/author/john-ahern/ and Guy William's The 4mm Engine  a Scratchbuilders Guide" https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/4mm-ENGINE-SCRATCHBUILDERS-GUIDE-WILLIAMS-GUY/17411887838/bd will help guide you through some of the pitfalls in building a loco like a MGWR A or C

 

 

 

[Midland Man]

What is the price for one of those

On April 6, 2020 at 11:41 AM, Galteemore said:

One of these yokes is handy too...I have a simple one that clamps on the table 

 

[Galteemore]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jewellers+bench+peg&safe=strict&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ALeKk02n7wR0KhivX31dAqLoT9_X8pDKKw:1586258950198&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk8P2Jm9boAhVfQxUIHSULDq8Q_AUoAnoECAwQAg&biw=375&bih=628#imgrc=fY3VnsdHfjMQZM

[murrayec]

One can always make one;-

18mm ply, two small sash clamps, screws & glue

18mm ply so that the peg clears the top of the sash clamp head, the ones I have have a 15mm head! One clamp can hold the peg in light conditions.

My best tip for piercing if you haven't done it before;- Do not put your hand or fingers in front of the blade while holding the work piece to the peg- if the blade should break, which it will, you will end up stabbing yourself with the broken blade! always hold the work piece with your fingers off to the side of the blade.

Eoin

 

[Midland Man]

Thanks all 

By the way I got some white metal today. I am also thinking of getting a second bench just for sodering  as the bench I use now  (as in photo) is a bit to fancy for my liking. Has any one had the same experience and what did they do?

MM

[murrayec]

Make up a board to solder on because things are going to get burnt!

Have you seen my Soldering Tips thread, I show a small board in that which has clamping edge and clamp screws??

Eoin

[David Holman]

Laurie Griffin Miniatures do a wide range of 7mm scale brass fittings. 

 All the advice above is proper workshop practice, which sadly I never experienced at school, so purists might want to look away now.

 A slitting disc in a Dremel is a crude but effective way of cutting thicker sheet metal and strong scissors for thinner stuff. Eileen's Emporium is a good source of metal strip, some of the wider pieces can be a better start than using a full sized sheet.

 Mixing materials is worth considering. For example plastic water pipe might work for the boiler, as would larger diameter copper pipe. Five minute epoxy will stick most things and the copper pipe becomes a massive heat sink, of course.

 You can turn some things using an electric drill and files, while resin casting works for some items too. Make a plasticard master. Drawing pins make decent 7mm scale buffer heads and indeed are included some sets! Some folk, Gordon Gravett amongst them have had considerable success in turning perspex for boiler fittings. Some of the locos on Pempoul feature this.

 Once a cost of paint is applied, nobody knows what is underneath. Brass and especially nickel silver as very satisfying to work with, but sometimes plastic can be simply and quicker.

 The Ahern book on loco building is a gem, likewise his one on buildings. Source them if you can, written over 70 years ago, they offer simple solutions of how to make pretty much everything on a loco. Of the newer books, Geoff Holt's two 'Locomotive Modelling' ones are great for 7mm scale and, when you get there, Ian Rathbone's 'A Modellers Handbook of Painting and Lining' is excellent too. All three from Wild Swan.

[Galteemore]

Amen to Laurie Griffin suggestion. He’s really helpful and I’ve just got a bag of goodies from him for my next project - safety valves, whistles, tapered handrails and - most excitingly  (How sad is that?! ) - exquisite water tank fillers. His stuff is beautifully produced, and they really are works of art. Below is an LSWR G6 that I converted to Southern Railway condition using one of his brass chimneys. You can see the original crude white metal one forlornly lying against the buffer beam! Re mixed media - dead right. A chap called Peter Smith in the Gauge O Guild builds locos from mostly Plastikard and other bits as required. I had a quick chat with him today and he’s happy to share some pics of his latest build. He can knock these locos up within a week or two!
 

@David Holman- I’ve read references in previous posts on your workshop thread , David, to cutting with a Dremel. I have the  said device and the nifty new cutting discs in my possession. Could you set out how you go about cutting lines in sheet metal please ?  I’m picturing some kind of vice-set up. Now seems an opportune time to ask !! 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Galteemore

[WRENNEIRE]

Mornin, well just out of the cot
These are some of a friend of mine's tools for working with brass
You may know him from such hits as "3 x 7mm 800's" "Gauge 1 A Class" and who can forget "7mm A in a Box"
 

 

 

 

 

[Galteemore]

Interesting - looks like a Beeson rivet tool top left 

[WRENNEIRE]

That's one for the rivet counters here Galtee.......

 

[Galteemore]

Sore point right now Dave - am literally counting bolt heads ! I’ll post a pic of the end result soon I hope...

Edited April 9, 2020 by Galteemore

[KMCE]

6 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Interesting - looks like a Beeson rivet tool top left 

Nah - that's a Kettering unit.  I find it works better with a sliding suport table.  

Not being a rivet counter or anything........

[David Holman]

Nowt fancy when I cut with a Dremel, I'm afraid. Usually done when cutting frames, cab sides etc, that are done in pairs, sweated together. Not unknown to simply hold material in one hand and Dremel in the other. However, no surprise that things soon get too hot to handle! Hence, common sense and a vice takes over.

 Usually draw an outline on the metal with a scriber, then cut as close as I dare with the Dremel, then finish off with files. Trouble is, because I'm an all rounder, often go a year or more between certain skills, so tend to forget! My last loco was over a year ago (the 101 kit) and last scratchbuild was Sir Henry, which must be at least three. 

 Note to self: read up a bit before starting Wolf Dog later in the year!

[Galteemore]

Thanks David. I totally get the idea of skill fade and am trying to alternate brass/plastic builds so I don’t forget the hard won lessons of each campaign!