RAL numbers for authentic railway liveries

[jhb171achill]

Folks

Today, IRM made a State Visit to Malahide so that between us we might use IRM's latest high-end paint-matching swatches to record as accurately as we could several of the liveries of models, and painted backgrounds to railway coats-of-arms, which we know to be authentic.

Many of Cyril Fry's models were painted during the 1940s, when many paint colours were not available, or were of inferior composition. When one considers that his EARLIEST models on display were painted some 75 years ago, this in itself raises issues. Firstly, no railway vehicle in real life carries the same paint for 75 years, thus the degree of chemical aging in the paint on models is non-prototypical; and also, the models were not "weathered" outdoors.

Thus, some colours were actually impossible to match ACCURATELY, though the results of our deliberations can produce colours which will "do rightly" for some liveries.

Of those that were possible to accurately record, including the all-important CIE green and "eau-de-nil", the results are as follows.

CIE 1962-72 (original) "tan" (officially "golden brown", though far too orangey to be realistically described as brown): 060 50 70

"Supertrain" later orange / tan: RAL 2011

CIE Standard Green: 140 50 60 / 150 30 30  (As applied to all buses, road lorries, some station and signal cabin paintwork (along with cream), any steam engines painted green, and passenger coaches UP TO 1955, but not afterwards; plus A46 for a few years in between its silver and black eras). Both colour reference numbers match in slightly different light. They're as good as a match. RAL 6037 appears to be the same too.

CIE light green for lining, numerals and "flying snails", known somewhat inexplicably as "eau-de-nil" ("water of nothing?? Whaaaat??): 130 70 40 when new, but weatherd to 140 70 30. Use the latter on a model which is meant to look a bit weatherbeaten.

Dublin & Blessington Tramway green, as used on locos, tramcars and the two railbuses: 140 30 30.

GSR carriage maroon: At the outset, the GSR used up what MGWR maroon and GSWR very dark lake that they had, with GSR markings of course, on everything.  Thus, very dark shades of maroon replaced the more LMS-shade Cavan & Leitrim and DSER maroons, the greens of the Wisht Clare and the CBSCR, and other stuff. After a few years, they had their brown and cream main line livery, so by 1928-30, you've an absolute patchwork quilt, main lines included! In 1933 they adopted what has been described as "indistinguishable" or "almost indistinguishable" from LMS (England or NCC) maroon. Today we tested both and found them identical. The lining was exactly the same too! Thus, anyone wanting model GSR times - prior to the "grey'n'green" era, we now go back to the "grey'n'maroon" era; just get LMS paint from your local LMS-specialist paint shop, or keyboard'n'website! Have a look at 020 20 29.

The GSR had a unique green, used only on the three 800 class. Luckily for us, Cyril Fry painted three locomotives with the exact paint. Curiously, none of his trio are 800s - they are all locos which would never have been anything but plain grey. AND - his OWN 800 is in CIE green, not GSR!

I understand that one of his trio in GSR green was made by him for his buddy in Belfast, Drew Donaldson, but Fry ended up keeping them. This colour proved impossible to match absolutely exactly, but the closest is 160 40 30.

The three 800 class had name and numberplates backed with blue. 800 retained that into CIE days until the end, and still has it at Cultra. 801 and 802 had their number and nameplate backgrounds repainted red between 1952 and 1955. The closest match to the blue is 250 30 20 or 230 20 25.

While referring to GSR green and Drew, I had heard that he had insisted that Maedb in Cultra is in GSR green; it isn't - it's in CIE lined green. The "G S" on its sides are Cultra additions - in the livery it carries, it should have a "flying snail". Actually, "Maedb" is the best example extant today of actual CIE green.

GSWR "dark lake" may be accurately seen today on the preserved coach 836 at Downpatrick. It's on many of Fry's models. It is a bit like the colour of Guinness - it looks a dark brown, almost black - but in fact is an exceptionally deep red; RAL 8019.

Donegal red is closest to 030 30 45, or RAL 3001.

While in Northern lands, the BCDR painted its locos a very dark green (not the Isle of Man green carried by No. 30 in Cultra). This was closest to 140 20 20.

GNR railcar / bus / Fintona tram / Howth tram dark blue: RAL 5013. This is not, of course, the same as steam loco blue, which was much lighter. Both of Fry's GNR locos are the wrong shade - one too bright, one way too dark (probably as a result of wartime paint), so we could not test them, but the RPSI's 171 and 85 are spot on. The GNR's unique 0.8.0 diesel loco was the dark railcar blue.

The Clogher Valley used a darkish maroon: 020 30 30 is an exact match.

One gem is the very dark green as now seen on Downpatrick's No. 90, and on one of Fry's earliest models. Despite being painted in 1934, it still looks right. This is the very dark olivey green used by the GSWR in the 1870-1895 period. A "turn-of-the-century" southern layout might have most GSWR locos in lined black, but one or two still in this: 110 20 10.

A productive afternoon; thanks to the Genie of IRM Towers for his magic paint-matching machine.

 

[Midland Man]

The early modelers were amazing to say the least. Not just the pair jobs but rather the techniques. I once heard that FRYS and drews tools were made by dentist tool makers that's why the cuts are so well done.  The D&B green is something I am going to try as well  the Peach colored on the window frames.

 Question time 

If Meadh CIE green is right is B113s wrong?

Would Meadhs original color be under the paint coats?

 

MM

[jhb171achill]

B113 in Cultra is painted in a reasonable approximation of the post-1955 diesel loco and coach livery, whereas "Maedb" is standard CIE green.

B113 was the darker shade as on Maedb when new, but would have been repainted in the livery she now carries between c.1956 and 1963, after which she became black and tan, then black with yellow ends.

Maedb's original colour may well appear in pin-top-sized bits in obscure nooks and crannies, but she is likely to have been sanded down to undercoat before repainting in CIE green. Then she was repainted by CIE again before heading north to repose in state in Cultra.

[hurricanemk1c]

No grey colours confirmed Jonathan?

[flange lubricator]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

 

CIE 1962-72 (original) "tan" (officially "golden brown", though far too orangey to be realistically described as brown): 060 50 70

"Supertrain" later orange / tan: RAL 2011

 

Is Supertrain orange introduced in 1972/73 RAL 2010 ?

Irish Rail Intercity later orange RAL2011?

Edited June 22, 2020 by flange lubricator

[Edo]

I was always though eau de nil described that colour perfectly....water of the Nile ...ye know the big long river in Africa - which i have had the honour of sailing on  , fishing in and puking into.....could describe the colour of any river in that neck of the woods in fairness!

It is a proper colour - look at any paint guide in your local paint store...

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Edo said:

I was always though eau de nil described that colour perfectly....water of the Nile ...ye know the big long river in Africa - which i have had the honour of sailing on  , fishing in and puking into.....could describe the colour of any river in that neck of the woods in fairness!

It is a proper colour - look at any paint guide in your local paint store...

Yes, but it says "nil" rather than "Nile" - though I get your point! It translates as "water of nothing", which I always found odd!

I would simply call it "pale green"...........

5 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Is Supertrain orange introduced in 1972/73 RAL 2010 ?

Irish Rail Intercity later orange RAL2011?

Sounds about right, Flange; I was not able to test these as Fry had nothing that late (he died in 1972), although we took a look at one of the Malahide Castle outline Mk 2/3s which looked right for that. Garfield took a note of that one.

[Edo]

JHB - the Nile in French is " Nil"!

Edited June 22, 2020 by Edo

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Edo said:

JHB - the Nile in French is " Nil"!

Is it??? OK! That solves a mystery for me!  So, a quiz question for a connection between CIE and Egypt!

[Edo]

6 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Is it??? OK! That solves a mystery for me!  So, a quiz question for a connection between CIE and Egypt!

It probably shows that I've spent the last 3 months painting every room in the house about 5 times ( probably not - but it feels like that)...eau de nil went on one wall in the bathroom........roll on my workplace re-opening!

[jhb171achill]

Now all you need is "flying snail" wallpaper!

 

(There's tonight's nightmare fodder....especially for the missus!)

[Edo]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Now all you need is "flying snail" wallpaper!

 

(There's tonight's nightmare fodder....especially for the missus!)

That would be fab!.....i love that whole Art Deco Era

The missus.....yeh.......not a chance!

Sounds like a great idea for my railway loft in the not too distance future tho.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Edo

[jhb171achill]

I think we're onto a winner there. Flying snail wallpaper, folks, roll up! €450 a roll, or two for €1500!

45 minutes ago, hurricanemk1c said:

No grey colours confirmed Jonathan?

No, indeed!!!!

Fry's shade isn't right!  He has two engines painted in it, but I think the paint has perished.

I got the correct one with the assistance of John Mayne (Mayner) and Roderick Bruce (00 Works)!

I think I actually pinged it up on IRM some time ago but I can't find it now, and someone's just texted me looking for it!!!! The 14th Law of Sod!

Edited June 22, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Glenderg]

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/?do=findComment&comment=64209

[GSWR 90]

The people at Downpatrick are thinking of colours for the Ulster coach... does anybody have any ideas on specifics? We know that it was 'brick red' but that's not very helpful!

Would anyone happen to have the RAL numbers for e.g. the Indian Red on the Manx or Furness locos?

Edited June 6 by GSWR 90

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, GSWR 90 said:

The people at Downpatrick are thinking of colours for the Ulster coach... does anybody have any ideas on specifics? We know that it was 'brick red' but that's not very helpful!

Would anyone happen to have the RAL numbers for e.g. the Indian Red on the Manx or Furness locos?

Try T R Williamson website - they do a range of railway reds with RAL codes - sorry can’t post web links for some reason. 

[Broithe]

10 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Try T R Williamson website - they do a range of railway reds with RAL codes - sorry can’t post web links for some reason. 

https://trwilliamson.co.uk/

[Robert Shrives]

Very interesting stuff, thanks to all involved in a heady afternoon!  Now if I was to mention scale colour or colour at scale should I get a coat? 

 

Robert  

[Galteemore]

34 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Very interesting stuff, thanks to all involved in a heady afternoon!  Now if I was to mention scale colour or colour at scale should I get a coat? 

 

Robert  

Several thin coats….

[GSWR 90]

12 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Try T R Williamson website - they do a range of railway reds with RAL codes - sorry can’t post web links for some reason. 

Thanks – they were able to provide the colours for our BCDR and GSWR coaches, not sure whether that was because they provided paint to them themselves or because they have the records of another company. I emailed them a while ago and I think their records only go back to the start of the 20th century

[GSWR 90]

Found some of what is hopefully the original livery on the coach 

 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

Some automotive paint suppliers can find the ral number from a little chip of the original colour, might be an option.

[GSWR 90]

3 hours ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

Some automotive paint suppliers can find the ral number from a little chip of the original colour, might be an option.

Thank you, good idea. Will see what we can do

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

I know Halfords used to do it before but they may not now.

[Rosslare Ranger]

Vinnie Byrne will mix any colour into a spray can for you.

[GSWR 90]

Here’s a test piece based on the sample of UR paint found on the coach