RTR Irish carriages

[hexagon789]

2 minutes ago, DiveController said:

@hexagon789 Nice Avatar change!, I have to say that I do love the Mk3s and that is a great phot and has been posted on the site several times for various discussions. I would love to MkIII in that Supertrain livery!

Trouble is - would it sell well enough?

True the Mk2Ds went very well, but I can't help feeling the Mk3s are a decidedly more niche market, especially in Supertrain.

At least with the Mk2Ds there is a legitimate way to run them as shorter trains suiting more peoples' layouts, with the Mk3s EGV+6 is about the shortest prototypical formation and most sets were EGV+7 or 8.

 

Perhaps I'm over thinking it.

[murphaph]

Most peoples' layouts are no where near prototypical so I'd say it wouldn't bother them if their trains weren't either.

[hexagon789]

8 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Most peoples' layouts are no where near prototypical so I'd say it wouldn't bother them if their trains weren't either.

I think I am over thinking it.

 

There would be also an advantage over the Mk2Ds in that you only need 3 basic bodyshells against 5 for the 2Ds, so it should make a run cheaper actually because you don't need as many different toolings.

[DiveController]

19 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Trouble is - would it sell well enough?

True the Mk2Ds went very well, but I can't help feeling the Mk3s are a decidedly more niche market, especially in Supertrain.

At least with the Mk2Ds there is a legitimate way to run them as shorter trains suiting more peoples' layouts, with the Mk3s EGV+6 is about the shortest prototypical formation and most sets were EGV+7 or 8.

 

Perhaps I'm over thinking it.

Personally I think there is a great love of Mk3 in general based on what I perceive from the forum and iirc it seemed to feature in a lot of 'wish lists'  and 'nudges' on the forum.  

Obviously, only IRM have access to their polls taken on here before but there was talk a Mk3 variant (irish) being done with/modified from/independent of the Oxford models Mk3 before which 'fell through', no offense to anyone, so I think they would sell well.

I agree with you that the Supertrain livery would be a more limited market but if you think about it there is a plethoras of freights just produced by IRM and what would you be sitting in as you see those pass but a ST liveried coach? 

 

I agree with @murphaph that people who have a smaller layout will run one coach shorter vs. Mk 2s. , plenty of 1st radius track, coaches overhanging the track on curves etc. on many layouts. Speaking of prototypical. I'd be surprised if anyone (hands ups and show us if you do) has a truly prototypical Irish point on a layout. When we discussed this on the forum a few years ago a typical point is probably twice as long as any 'express point' in 21mm or 16.5 mm gauge out there

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by DiveController

[Noel]

9 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Trouble is - would it sell well enough?

True the Mk2Ds went very well, but I can't help feeling the Mk3s are a decidedly more niche market, especially in Supertrain.

At least with the Mk2Ds there is a legitimate way to run them as shorter trains suiting more peoples' layouts, with the Mk3s EGV+6 is about the shortest prototypical formation and most sets were EGV+7 or 8.

 

Perhaps I'm over thinking it.

No I think your right, mk3 are so long and they don't look right with just 3 or 4 coaches in a formation. Few layouts can accommodate 5-7 coach rakes. I seem to remember some hints from IRM on here a few years ago that Mk3s were high on their future hit list, but then a few years ago rumours that oxford rail were going to produce CIE/IR mk3 coaches seemed to scuttle that which is entirely understandable given the tiny market size here. Having said that IRM mk3s with their reputation for detail, with the correct doors and bogies, and clear windows and correct coloured seating would be wonderful. Some folk respray Hornby shorties (ie only 7 windows) and stick buffers on them which allows a decent rake of 5-6 coaches look ok on a layout with shorter radius curves and shorter platforms. The old CIE B&T era allows virtually any formation you like from just two coaches (eg GSV + one coach, craven, or park royal, or laminate) to 5 cravens and a GSV and everything in between. I remember the galway train with a fixed rake of mk2d stock, being headed by a mk1 GSV and TPO both in B&T contrasted with the all orange mk2d coaches, with the air lines passing through the TPO solebar's side lines. Its your layout you can run anything you choose. One of the reasons I like the pre-1975 era is you have more freedom to mix'n'manch stock, even stick a few two axle wagons and a 20ton brake van onto a 3 coach branch passenger train. Plenty of evidence of this on youtube for folks who were too young to witness it at the time.

[DJ Dangerous]

I'd sell a kidney for high standard Mk3's and Mk4's with the appropriate DVT's.

[DiveController]

18 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I'd sell a kidney for high standard Mk3's and Mk4's with the appropriate DVT's.

And there you have it.

@DJ Dangerous Now you have to decide on Mk3 OR Mk4s (no personal interest).

Both and you have to resell them to support your dialysis

@Noel If you have enough room for Mk2s you have enough room for Mk3s less one. I think the 6xxx series used for Push-Pull would also be very popular and ran in shorter rake.

Plenty of stations in Ireland where the train length exceeds the available platform length especially with specials and peak time strengthened trains, and that doesn't just apply to Mk3s

First three coaches at Sligo off platform (Mk2s)

Edited July 25, 2020 by DiveController

[hexagon789]

3 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I'd sell a kidney for high standard Mk3's and Mk4's with the appropriate DVT's.

There's no need for that

(Well maybe not yet at least!)

 

6 minutes ago, Noel said:

No I think your right, mk3 are so long and they don't look right with just 3 or 4 coaches in a formation. Few layouts can accommodate 5-7 coach rakes. I seem to remember some hints from IRM on here a few years ago that Mk3s were high on their future hit list, but then a few years ago rumours that oxford rail were going to produce CIE/IR mk3 coaches seemed to scuttle that which is entirely understandable given the tiny market size here. Having said that IRM mk3s with their reputation for detail, with the correct doors and bogies, and clear windows and correct coloured seating would be wonderful. Some folk respray Hornby shorties (ie only 7 windows) and stick buffers on them which allows a decent rake of 5-6 coaches look ok on a layout with shorter radius curves and shorter platforms. The old CIE B&T era allows virtually any formation you like from just two coaches (eg GSV + one coach, craven, or park royal, or laminate) to 5 cravens and a GSV and everything in between. I remember the galway train with a fixed rake of mk2d stock, being headed by a mk1 GSV and TPO both in B&T contrasted with the all orange mk2d coaches, with the air lines passing through the TPO solebar's side lines. Its your layout you can run anything you choose. One of the reasons I like the pre-1975 era is you have more freedom to mix'n'manch stock, even stick a few two axle wagons and a 20ton brake van onto a 3 coach branch passenger train. Plenty of evidence of this on youtube for folks who were too young to witness it at the time.

I'm not sure about the Irish hobby scene but I remember about 10 years ago the most commonly modelled era in GB model railways was steam 1950s-1960s. Now it's moved to the 1970s/80s, perhaps a similar thing with Irish Railways given the Black & Tan models are very popular or at least seems like that to me.

As much as people like myself may set high store by accuracy in terms of preferring to run prototypical sets, if the quality is there then perhaps that will indeed not put as many people of running them, there is a tipping point in that respect I feel.

 

15 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Personally I think there is a great love of Mk3 in general based on what I perceive from the forum and iirc it seemed to feature in a lot of 'wish lists'  and 'nudges' on the forum.  

Obviously, only IRM have access to their polls taken on here before but there was talk a Mk3 variant (irish) being done with/modified from/independent of the Oxford models Mk3 before which 'fell through', no offense to anyone, so I think they would sell well.

I agree with you that the Supertrain livery would be a more limited market but if you think about it there is a plethoras of freights just produced by IRM and what would you be sitting in as you see those pass but a ST liveried coach? 

 

I agree with @murphaph that people who have a smaller layout will run one coach shorter vs. Mk 2s. , plenty of 1st radius track, coaches overhanging the track on curves etc. on many layouts. Speaking of prototypical. I'd be surprised if anyone (hands ups and show us if you do) has a truly prototypical Irish point on a layout. When we discussed this on the forum a few years ago a typical point is probably twice as long as any 'express point' in 21mm or 16.5 mm gauge out there

 

Which is another fair point, there's modelling something which simply "looks right" or gives a flavour and then the huge 30/40-odd foot long monster club layouts that take five lorries and fifty people to shift that tour the exhibition circuits.

Interesting that you say they are popular, not that I'm disagreeing, but it's a less prominent popularity it seems

3 minutes ago, DiveController said:

And there you have it.

@DJ Dangerous Now you have to decide on Mk3 OR Mk4s (no personal interest).

Both and you have to resell them to support your dialysis

Personally - Mk3s are a no-brainer. 

Exactly like our Mk4s, the Irish ones ain't no Mk3 and I mean that in more than one sense.

[DJ Dangerous]

5 minutes ago, DiveController said:

And there you have it.

@DJ Dangerous Now you have to decide on Mk3 OR Mk4s (no personal interest).

Both and you have to resell them to support your dialysis

@Noel If you have enough room for Mk2s you have enough room for Mk3s less one. I think the 6xxx series used for Push-Pull would also be very popular and ran in shorter rake.

Plenty of stations in Ireland where the train length exceeds the available platform length especially with specials and peak time strengthened trains, and that doesn't just apply to Mk3s

I'm sure I can find another unused organ to sell. A kidney for the Mk3's and a lung for the Mk4's?

My layout is only a board that slides under the bed, and i am happy running five or six Mk3's on it:

 

[Wexford70]

48 minutes ago, DiveController said:

@hexagon789 Nice Avatar change!

I have to say that I do love the Mk3s and that is a great photo and has been posted on the site several times for various discussions. I would love to MkIII in that Supertrain livery!

It was a fine livery. Probably best achieved through a good quality paint finish than trying to get a plastic to match the colour

 

[Noel]

13 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I'm sure I can find another unused organ to sell. A kidney for the Mk3's and a lung for the Mk4's?

My layout is only a board that slides under the bed, and i am happy running five or six Mk3's on it:

 

Love the mk3 suburban set. Do you mind me asking where did you source it. SF have discontued them which is a pity as the tippex MM 121s due anyway now should trigger fresh demand for mk3 suburban sets.

[DJ Dangerous]

It's a Silver Fox set. I know that SF is taboo for some, but standing a few feet back, they look grand.

Agreed, they'd be wonderful to go with the upcoming 121's.

DC Kits had a Mk3 DVT kit At one stage, but I think that's now out of stock.

[DiveController]

50 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

It's a Silver Fox set. I know that SF is taboo for some, but standing a few feet back, they look grand.

Agreed, they'd be wonderful to go with the upcoming 121's.

DC Kits had a Mk3 DVT kit At one stage, but I think that's now out of stock.

 

Again it's a matter of availability. For those with the skills to model something better than this it is easier to sit back, opine and pontificate.

Irish freight models and Silver Fox have both been the subject of criticism by some on this forum at various times, yet I and many other will agree that they provide models that suit many until (if) a superior model become available.

I have a TPO and some 1950s CIE-built coach models from IFM. They are not perfect and relatively expensive as they are run in smaller batches but as such they fulfill  a need for smaller groups and more niche modelling periods or models that cannot/have yet to be catered for by a larger/high quality manufacturer.

I would hope that that if (say) IRM were to produce a Mk3 they would not only do coaches but the EGV/DVT to complete a rake and spread the additional costs over set entire range of product rather than not competing the train.

This has been a problem in the past where you could purchase, say, a Lima Mk3 but no EGV to complete the train requiring the ability to model one yourself or commission one.

[Broithe]

4 minutes ago, DiveController said:

 

Again it's a matter of availability. For those with the skills to model something better than this it is easier to sit back, opine and pontificate.

Irish freight models and Silver Fox have both been the subject of criticism by some on this forum at various times, yet I and many other will agree that they provide models that suit many until (if) a superior model become available.

I have a TPO and some 1950s CIE-built coach models from IFM. They are not perfect and relatively expensive as they are run in smaller batches but as such they fulfill  a need for smaller groups and more niche modelling periods or models that cannot/have yet to be catered for by a larger/high quality manufacturer.

I would hope that that if (say) IRM were to produce a Mk3 they would not only do coaches but the EGV/DVT to complete a rake and spread the additional costs over set entire range of product rather than not competing the train.

This has been a problem in the past where you could purchase, say, a Lima Mk3 but no EGV to complete the train requiring the ability to model one yourself or commission one.

All of these things, plus MIR etc., are part of the evolutionary process that has got us where we are now.

 

 

We were all amoebae once - some of us still are.....

[Noel]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

It's a Silver Fox set. I know that SF is taboo for some, but standing a few feet back, they look grand.

Agreed, they'd be wonderful to go with the upcoming 121's.

DC Kits had a Mk3 DVT kit At one stage, but I think that's now out of stock.

Agree with you SF is and always has been fine at 2ft. They had Irish RTR Coaching stock when nobody else had. Only some  rivit counters complained vociferously. John Hazleton did the hobby a favour and many folks happily run his stock on their Irish layouts.  A great pity SF have discontinued the mk3 suburban sets.

[DJ Dangerous]

46 minutes ago, Noel said:

Agree with you SF is and always has been fine at 2ft. They had Irish RTR Coaching stock when nobody else had. Only some  rivit counters complained vociferously. John Hazleton did the hobby a favour and many folks happily run his stock on their Irish layouts.  A great pity SF have discontinued the mk3 suburban sets.

Sorry, Noel, I should have said earlier that Silver Fox seem to do things in batches.

When I first contacted them about the Mk3's, they said that they'd get back to me, and they did so a few months later. I got the DVT and two suburban coaches from them.

A few months after that, they were doing another batch, and I got some more suburban coaches and some EGV's.

I contacted them late last year or early this year regarding some C Classes, and they have just finished that batch, now.

It's possible that they'll do suburban sets if there is enough demand, and they can allocate time to do a batch.

Still, if IRM or MM or IRMMM are going to sneakily release some Mk3's and DVT's, that solves that problem!

 

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, DiveController said:

 

Again it's a matter of availability. For those with the skills to model something better than this it is easier to sit back, opine and pontificate.

Irish freight models and Silver Fox have both been the subject of criticism by some on this forum at various times, yet I and many other will agree that they provide models that suit many until (if) a superior model become available.

I have a TPO and some 1950s CIE-built coach models from IFM. They are not perfect and relatively expensive as they are run in smaller batches but as such they fulfill  a need for smaller groups and more niche modelling periods or models that cannot/have yet to be catered for by a larger/high quality manufacturer.

I would hope that that if (say) IRM were to produce a Mk3 they would not only do coaches but the EGV/DVT to complete a rake and spread the additional costs over set entire range of product rather than not competing the train.

This has been a problem in the past where you could purchase, say, a Lima Mk3 but no EGV to complete the train requiring the ability to model one yourself or commission one.

I suspect that the way the coaches are packaged would be a factor.

For example,  if the DVT is sold seperately, IRM may end up selling loads of the DVT's, and be left with coaches that don't move.

Whereas if they release two suburban bundles, one with a DVT and two coaches, another with three coaches to complement that, they don't end up with stock sitting around for ages.

They could run twice as many DVT bundles as non-DVT bundles, if they projected that sales would be as such.

I guess only they know themselves what is likely to work!

[DiveController]

Not sure they'd be left with anything. Not sure how the DVT would sell but with 121s available as pushers that seems a no brainer. With regards to GSVs/EGVs they usually sell out more quickly than coaches and once sold are still in demand people may have an  rake that requires completion

[Rob]

Mark III (IÈ) for me, but include the Restaurant with the elusive correct lrish window formation!!!

[DJ Dangerous]

13 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Not sure they'd be left with anything. Not sure how the DVT would sell but with 121s available as pushers that seems a no brainer. With regards to GSVs/EGVs they usually sell out more quickly than coaches and once sold are still in demand people may have an  rake that requires completion

We also have 201's available as pushers, in a variety of liveries, from a variety of sellers.

Agreed on the EGV's / GSV's / DVT's - bigger run of those as they'd be snapped up by anybody who has rakes of repaints etc that need completion - hence suggesting the bundles.

[DiveController]

On 7/25/2020 at 6:27 PM, Rob said:

Mark III (IÈ) for me, but include the Restaurant with the elusive correct lrish window formation!!!

yes, they usually come only second to EGVs although only one per rake and may not on all formations. The Lima MK3s as you say were resprays of the British restaurant and did not have the correct windows for an Irish Mk3 restaurant. I would agree that is MK3 were to come out the intercity livery would be more popular as one could always respray the coaches into Supertrain but I would hate to have to especially for an expensive HQ item, seems to defeat the purpose of buying it rtr

Edited July 31, 2020 by DiveController

[hexagon789]

8 hours ago, Rob said:

Mark III (IÈ) for me, but include the Restaurant with the elusive correct lrish window formation!!!

At least there's only one design, even ignoring the various permutations since privitisation I think there were about 7 different types of Mk3 catering vehicle in service together under British Rail and probably about 11 designs overall.

Though many differences relate purely to internal layout or catering equipment so wouldn't be externally visible.

The Irish ones only seem to have had one major alteration during their life - the removal of one seat to provide a wheelchair space and then there was the one diner which had 31 instead of 30 seats for a period according to the ITG books, but it's nothing like having TRUK, TRSB, TRUB, RUB, TRFB, RFB, RSM, RFM, TRFK, TRLK, TRFM and more recently TSB and TGFB types

(Probably some more I've forgotten but you guys have it easy honestly!)

[Noel]

9 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

We also have 201's available as pushers, in a variety of liveries, from a variety of sellers.

Agreed on the EGV's / GSV's / DVT's - bigger run of those as they'd be snapped up by anybody who has rakes of repaints etc that need completion - hence suggesting the bundles.

That's a risk for a manufacturer that folk only buy EGVs, DVTs and dinners to run with existing respray stock. This happened when MM initially released the Mk2d EGV, folks bought more of the EGVs than other coaches to run with existing mk2d stock (resprays and Lima).

[Noel]

PS: Detailed Mk3 coaches after this years release of A class  and 121 class  remains the last significant hole in Irish RTR passenger stock (AEC, laminates, and park royals excepted). Unfortunately the mk4 CAFs were limited to Cork route, so not as many people may have nostalgia memory for those in 10-15 years time compared to the larger number of folks who travel on the other passenger intercity routes (Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Sligo, Westport, etc), with few of those unlikely to harbour fond nostalgia memories of shapeless bland boring yo-yo 22k sets that aren't even pulled by an engine.

[WRENNEIRE]

3 hours ago, Noel said:

That's a risk for a manufacturer that folk only buy EGVs, DVTs and dinners to run with existing respray stock. This happened when MM initially released the Mk2d EGV, folks bought more of the EGVs than other coaches to run with existing mk2d stock (resprays and Lima).

News to me Noel
Rakes of the standards were bought when they arrived, dont see any for sale anywhere at the moment except resprays

[Noel]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

News to me Noel
Rakes of the standards were bought when they arrived, dont see any for sale anywhere at the moment except resprays

Hi Dave, that's the explanation I had been given here over the years for the disproportionate shortage of MM EGVs (ie folks buying them to run with their lima coaches)? Ok must be another explanation., your at the coal face so bow to your experience. Noel

[DiveController]

Bottom line is that all the MM coaches sold as Dave says but I suspect that having extra GSV/EGV is probably a sound strategy.

I don't think someone who merely wanted to add an EGV to another rake would necessarily buy new whole stock to get an EGV, unless they regard the new product as superior and want to buy a whole new rake anyway.

Even if you sold the EGV in a pack with something else, someone just wanting to complete another rake would buy that pack alone leaving a shortage of those packs as they other coach packs sell out. Anyway all that strategy is up to the producer.

[DiveController]

Speaking of EGVs, I didn't know they were fitted with integral rear lights eventually

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by DiveController

[Rob]

Great pic,  never saw that while they were in normal service. When/where was that?    Photo looks very modern and clear.

[Railer]

I think only a few got that mod. A few MK3 EGVs were modified so they could work with a Push Pull set without a DVT in hauled mode. I think the above light mod was part of the works.

[hexagon789]

7 hours ago, DiveController said:

Speaking of EGVs, I didn't;t know they were fitted with integral rear lights eventually

 

That's something I've never come across before, I always assumed no Irish Mk3s had integral taillights, perhaps a trial?

[WRENNEIRE]

On the subject of coaches, would there be much interest in Mk2d's in IR livery?
Asking for a friend!!!!!

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

On the subject of coaches, would there be much interest in Mk2d's in IR livery?
Asking for a friend!!!!!

Given how quickly they went I think a third run of a different lot of coach numbers would be popular. Perhaps they could do two EGVs, like they did two Diners in one of the Supertrain releases given the EGVs are so popular.

Personally, I'd like another run in Supertrain, the lack of EGV - the most difficult vehicle to mock-up from other RTR BREL Mk2 designs - made me decide against obtaining any of the remaining stock from IRM.

 

[Wexford70]

On 7/28/2020 at 4:44 PM, hexagon789 said:

Given how quickly they went I think a third run of a different lot of coach numbers would be popular. Perhaps they could do two EGVs, like they did two Diners in one of the Supertrain releases given the EGVs are so popular.

Personally, I'd like another run in Supertrain, the lack of EGV - the most difficult vehicle to mock-up from other RTR BREL Mk2 designs - made me decide against obtaining any of the remaining stock from IRM.

 

I agree, a run of super train (but with better paint work) and the IR would be great.

The super train relying on the plastic for that unique colour finish rather than a neutral plastic and a high quality paint finish is what let it down in my view. They looked more toy like especially when compared to the wonderful cravens.

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Wexford70
Spelling

[hexagon789]

6 minutes ago, Wexford70 said:

The super train relying in the plastic for that unique colour finish rather than a neutral plastic and a high quality paint finish is what let it down in my view. They looked more toy like especially when compared to the wonderful cravens.

Is that what made the "orange" look a bit too orangey? I thought the second run was definitely better but still didn't seem quite right and I think that's it - it was too matt a finish not enough of a gloss from a proper paint finish.