Legal implications of using IE/CIE/Dublin Bus Logos & Liveries on models

[ShaneC]

Anyone have any information on how this works? Specifically for public transit companies and for factory-printed models not decals.

Are modellers seeking permission and/or paying license fees for each model they produce or is it more of a just do it and hope nothing comes of it type deal.

[BosKonay]

Public companies and bodies don’t charge licenses but permission to use branding of current items is a courtesy if not strictly required. 
 

We had to secure permission from the government of Scotland to produce the mark 5 coaches in Caledonian sleeper branding. 

[BosKonay]

3 hours ago, ShaneC said:

Anyone have any information on how this works? Specifically for public transit companies and for factory-printed models not decals.

Are modellers seeking permission and/or paying license fees for each model they produce or is it more of a just do it and hope nothing comes of it type deal.

It depends on the brand. For companies like Stobart and others licenses and permissions and in some cases royalties are paid. For others permission is enough. 
 

There is EU legal prescedent supporting the opinion that making a scale model of something necessitates it looking like the big version so isn’t a breach of a trademark or copyright unless the original item is protected already in scale or model form. 

[ShaneC]

5 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

It depends on the brand. For companies like Stobart and others licenses and permissions and in some cases royalties are paid. For others permission is enough. 
 

There is EU legal prescedent supporting the opinion that making a scale model of something necessitates it looking like the big version so isn’t a breach of a trademark or copyright unless the original item is protected already in scale or model form. 

Thanks for the info! Is that for public-owned companies (CIE/IE, BE, Dublin Bus etc.) too do you know? Permission is sought for every model?

Edited February 26, 2021 by ShaneC

[jhb171achill]

I think that if ever such a rule was to exist, it would be ignored and unenforcable. Say you're not allowed to use an IE logo on a model, and i scratchbuild one in my attic?

Such a thing would be such an outrageous overkill - especially if it was public sector, that few would even begin to take it seriously........

[Mayner]

The Union Pacific Railroad sued MTH (A high end American O Gauge manufacturer) in 2005 when the railroad attempted to enforce a licensing agreement for the commercial use of UP trademark material including "fallen flag" companies. 

At the time it looked like the railroad saw the model manufacturers as a potential source of royalty income, rather than free advertising.

MTH  negotiated a royalty free licensing agreement  for all model manufacturers that applies in perpetuity for both UP and "fallen flag" companies.

https://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/new-products/2006/11/mth-negotiates-new-union-pacific-licensing-deal-for-all

https://www.up.com/aboutup/corporate_info/licensing/index.htm

[jhb171achill]

20 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Public companies and bodies don’t charge licenses but permission to use branding of current items is a courtesy if not strictly required. 
 

We had to secure permission from the government of Scotland to produce the mark 5 coaches in Caledonian sleeper branding. 

It's the sort of thing that I don't think would have even occurred to 99% of modellers, even manufacturers. Can I ask, what was it that made you aware that you had to seek such permission? Is there some sort of definitive bank of information as to what (theoretically) requires permission and what doesn't?

I can't help feeling that if one wanted to make a model of a public building in Scotland, with a Scottish flag flying on it, that no permission would be needed for the flag? Could any perceived requirement of this nature just be the whim of some litigation-obsessed fat cat businessmen or corporate image consultant, rather than "real" law?

Just curious.

[Galteemore]

This is how it works in the military field ...https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/royal-air-force-loses-battle-control-trademark-roundel/199607

The basic issue I think is about protecting a particular brand identity, rather than common cultural symbols. The Union Flag is a common cultural symbol - the RAF was arguing that the roundel is not.  And the RAF actually retains a fair degree of control as to who uses the symbol. Airfix (or its parent) will have an MoD licence for producing kits of RAF branded aircraft. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Galteemore

[Broithe]

37 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

This is how it works in the military field ...https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/royal-air-force-loses-battle-control-trademark-roundel/199607

The basic issue I think is about protecting a particular brand identity, rather than common cultural symbols. The Union Flag is a common cultural symbol - the RAF was arguing that the rounded is not.  And the RAF actually retains a fair degree of control as to who uses the symbol. Airfix (or its parent) will have an MoD licence for producing kits of RAF branded aircraft. 

There is a fairly widely available beer on the Big Island called 'Lancaster Bomber', when I first came across it, I was rather surprised to see that the roundel that they used to adorn the product and its associated peripheral items, beer-mats, etc, had the RAF colours reversed. This, of course, turned it into a French roundel - and France did have the odd Lancaster after the war, though mostly (perhaps all?) were naval aircraft, featuring an anchor superimposed on the roundel.

I approached the brewery about why they had done this - a series of rather odd emails passed between us, before I gave up - the person involved in the replies was of the opinion, for some unfathomable reason, that the RAF roundel was 'copyright', but the French one was not...

On the subject of model aircraft markings, there are rather more significant restrictions on, particularly, Revell aircraft of German WW2 prototypes. There will be no swastikas on the transfer sheets - and not even on the box artwork. I've never been in a model shop in Germany, but I wonder how they cope with models from foreign producers?

 

 

[NIR]

Would be interesting to know what permissions, if any, were obtained for model ambulances bearing the red cross. Unauthorised use of that symbol is a criminal offence I think, following on from the Geneva Convention or similar.

[Broithe]

1 minute ago, NIR said:

Would be interesting to know what permissions, if any, were obtained for model ambulances bearing the red cross. Unauthorised use of that symbol is a criminal offence I think, following on from the Geneva Convention or similar.

The Red Cross can get rather bizarrely awkward about their symbol - on the basis that it must remain exclusively theirs, or people may begin to reduce their acceptance of the reality that it expresses.

 

Some years ago, they objected to the use of the red cross on the costume of a nurse in a pantomime performance.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12135540

The cross was changed to green, as you will frequently see on first aid kits, etc.
 

 

[BosKonay]

19 minutes ago, NIR said:

Would be interesting to know what permissions, if any, were obtained for model ambulances bearing the red cross. Unauthorised use of that symbol is a criminal offence I think, following on from the Geneva Convention or similar.

Models. They won’t be confused with real ones 

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, BosKonay said:

Models. They won’t be confused with real ones 

Models in nurses uniforms or diecast models?

[Broithe]

29 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Models in nurses uniforms

I'm off to Google that...

...and I'll be blaming you...

[ShaneC]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Can I ask, what was it that made you aware that you had to seek such permission? Is there some sort of definitive bank of information as to what (theoretically) requires permission and what doesn't?

Seeking permission for reproducing logos/trademarked names is normal in any industry as to not infringe on copyrights.

I doubt liveries would be covered, nor the design of the vehicle / model itself so you would probably be fine legality-wise, reproducing e.g. that calendonia sleeper model without using their logo, their branding or their name on model or on the box, the marketing etc. But they can go after you for the use of branding & name if used without permission - though it's highly unlikely they would if it was a personal scratch build and not something built for sale.

The only part that I'm confused on is whether that applies to state-owned companies. But I guess I'll go with the seeking permission as a courtesy route if that's the industry norm.

[Warbonnet]

On 27/2/2021 at 5:02 PM, jhb171achill said:

Can I ask, what was it that made you aware that you had to seek such permission?

Their lawyers! 

(As it was a collaborative project with another model manufacturer who were doing it in a different gauge we were covered in the initial agreement, but their lawyers didnt realise this and sent us some interesting letters)