A "County Down" moment

[colmflanagan]

Greetings all, 

It's been a good long time since I posted anything on this forum, but time flies - my  main vaguely Northern Irish based layout is "The Ballycrochan Line" it's  on RMweb's Irish group., if any of you aren't aware of it, and fancy a look..

My first serious efforts into modelling Irish, was back into the early 1970s  when I decided to try and build something from a Belfast &County Down railway ; the result was a modified Tri-ang LMS 3F 0-6-0 into a representation of No 4 on the BCDR.  I didn't even line it as I hadn't the skill, or nerve, to "have a go".  The photo below is taken on my layout of the day.  The second picture was an effort to do No 171 "Slieve Gullion" from a Tri-ang Southern Railway L1 4-4-0, it and as for name plates or transfers, no-one as far as knew, made them in 1971.  Believe it or not, I still have both of these though No 4 has become No 14, and 171 is now "Slieve Donard" - both lined with name/numberplates!

Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in a little BCDR get together I had recently on my layout; there are three "BCDR 4-4-2" tanks in the pictures. Spot the differences..

No 30 was built by me from a K's SR Adams radial tank with a largely new body shell.  No 12 is essentially a Craftsman kit chassis built by David temple, who advertises in Railway Modeller; I grafted on a plasticard body.;  No 27 is the newest, a project I recently  built for  a friend.  It actually isn't a 4-4-2 at all. It's a Bachmann Lancashire & Yorkshire 2-4-2 tank, repainted with a few tweaks to look a it more "County Down". As such we gave it the number 27, which was in fact a BCDR 2-4-2T  But the L&Y loco looks more like the 4-4-2Ts, I think.

The three locomotives; it may be tricky reading the numberplates; 27 is at the back; No 12 on the right, and No 30 on the left.

As No 12 is slightly overlapping No 27, you can't tell if it is a 2-4-2  or a 4-4-2!

 

Anyway, which one is the nearest to the prototype? I leave you to decided for yourself.  I have a vague idea of seriously attacking another Bachmann L&Y 2-4-2 loco and actually converting it to a 4-4-2. But thisI will require me to call in some engineering help, as fitting a bogie will be tricky, if the thing is ever to run properly.

 

Colm Flanagan

Edited February 27, 2021 by colmflanagan
extra info

[jhb171achill]

I've seen that on RMweb, Colm, and it is absolutely amazing.

It is also very timely here, as recent posts on this forum in the last week have enquired (on another modeller's behalf) about the correct BCDR green for locos - you have it - and the types of carriages which ran on the line.

I have a few questions - in the second colour picture, that brake third - is that one of those Ratio long wheelbase 4-wheel GWR types on a (prototypical) 6-wheel chassis?

The carriages you have are fascinating. Dare one ask that when you've time you might post some info on how they were made, adapted from what, or scratchbuilt? The carriages are absolutely superb.

[Galteemore]

Welcome back Colm. Hope you post more. BCDR tanks have been under discussion here of late so your fine work is making a timely appearance !

[murphaph]

I love the backscenes. Really great depth.

[colmflanagan]

On 27/2/2021 at 4:57 PM, jhb171achill said:

I've seen that on RMweb, Colm, and it is absolutely amazing.

It is also very timely here, as recent posts on this forum in the last week have enquired (on another modeller's behalf) about the correct BCDR green for locos - you have it - and the types of carriages which ran on the line.

I have a few questions - in the second colour picture, that brake third - is that one of those Ratio long wheelbase 4-wheel GWR types on a (prototypical) 6-wheel chassis?

The carriages you have are fascinating. Dare one ask that when you've time you might post some info on how they were made, adapted from what, or scratchbuilt? The carriages are absolutely superb.

The BCDR carriages are mostly "bashed" from various Ratio sources, some from the GWR 4 wheelers, shorter ones with a dummy centre axle, others made by fusing two chassis. I used the Midland suburban carriage sides extensively; the one bogie coach in the pictures (centre, behind No 30) is an old Tri-ang (yes, Tri-ang!) clerestory.  The small luggage 6 wheeler is scratch built on a Ratio chassis.  A couple of the longer ones (behind No 12)  run on old Hornby Dublo "fruit van" underframes welded together - not by me, i might add. They are very good runners but as has been stated elsewhere,, Dublo stuff is not free running and the light 4-4-2s can just about cope with the two of them. One 3rd brake a "K's" whitemetal  LNWR kit from the 70's. It's also rather heavy.  None of the 4-4-2s, except the Bachmann 2/4/4/2  27 (and she spins mightily!) have a chance of pulling these three up a gradient!

 

Colm

[J-Mo Arts]

Hi Colm, 

I believe I may be the 'modeller' referred to earlier in this thread as I'm developing a strong interest in the BCDR and have made such inquiries! I like the Lanky 2-4-2 conversion, I myself am making a 'freelance' BCDR 0-4-2 with my 3d printer, which is on my workbench thread should you wish to have a look. I'll be following this thread with great interest. 

Your work is really inspiring, thanks for sharing it!

[DAVID WILSON]

Hi Colm and contributors on BCDR matters,

Your work on reproducing County Down locomotives and carriages is very pleasing to the eyes.

My curiosity is what the passenger saw when exiting Donaghadee station's platform going down the ramp to the outside. The photo (and acknowledgement to the photographer) indicates an archway apparently plastered over with an ordinary household door insert, the latter I take it too small for passengers coming and going during railway days. Richard Craig's piece on Donaghadee and it's branch has an aerial photo which indicates that there was a gap between the rear of the house terrace containing I take it booking hall and waiting area, and the shed end gable in the photo.  The gap, to my eyes appears to be covered with some sort of roof.

Would anyone have any knowledge of the layout/detail from the bottom of the platform ramp out to the street? I was born two years after the railway closed so did not experience it for myself but as a child I may have been inside the street entrance when my mum and aunt took me to Donaghadee one afternoon in the UTA bus, too young to remember. I believe the UTA may still have used the front entrance for bus passengers.

Any information would be gratefully received, many thanks,

 

David Wilson

Belfast

 

[Galteemore]

Asked my dad who had his first experience of steam standing on footplate of a Co Down loco there....The space twixt the platform end and street entrance consisted of a very small concourse with booking office on right ladies and gents facilities on left. There was an Easons bookstall on the platform which was covered in only a short way towards island platform. Street entrance looked little different from a domestic house, top storey removed in the 30,s

[DAVID WILSON]

Thank you Galteemore for that information.  It sounds quite narrow, makes me wonder how the station coped with an influx of passengers when excursion trains arrived or departed on sunny summer afternoon/evenings.  Sadly most of the year at other times there mustn't have been a lot of trade so a small concourse would have sufficed.

[jhb171achill]

20 hours ago, DAVID WILSON said:

Thank you Galteemore for that information.  It sounds quite narrow, makes me wonder how the station coped with an influx of passengers when excursion trains arrived or departed on sunny summer afternoon/evenings.  Sadly most of the year at other times there mustn't have been a lot of trade so a small concourse would have sufficed.

My understanding is that as you imply, it actually WAS a non-railway building; highly unusually for Ireland (perhaps uniquely?) it pre-dated the railway entirely. I believe it was a large house, thus the small concourse probably had its origins in a hallway!

The UTA do indeed seem to have used it for a while for bus passengers after the railway closed.

[Galteemore]

20 hours ago, DAVID WILSON said:

Thank you Galteemore for that information.  It sounds quite narrow, makes me wonder how the station coped with an influx of passengers when excursion trains arrived or departed on sunny summer afternoon/evenings.  Sadly most of the year at other times there mustn't have been a lot of trade so a small concourse would have sufficed.

I asked another question and here’s his answer.....there was a side exit to pier past harbour masters office and I expect that the hordes went through that my own early memories do not recall being brought through front door. I seem to remember being brought in from the Commons which was and is a public area twixt old harbour and Millisle Road halt. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Galteemore

[DAVID WILSON]

Thank you everyone for the additional information. I can imagine boisterous excursionists heading straight for the side exit. As long as you could show your ticket on the way back to any platform staff checking, presumably everyone was content.

[colmflanagan]

Donaghadee was only 8 miles from where I was brought up, but I was born too late to see the trains, it was occupied by buses! 

Sort of on this theme, some pics of my latest creation, BCDR No 26; I always liked this little engine when i got a stack of BCDR pictures from a firm in GB in the late 1960's. 

 

My model is a chop job (they all are!!) - Bachmann SECR "C" class providing the loco itself, with alterations and additions.  This one's been on my "to do" list since 2013! The biggest setback with we bodgers is that no-one produces an R-T-R tender that looks anything like the little outside sprung ones which were prolific on the BCDR (and NCC).  This one came from a kit firm called Dragon Models in 2013 (I think they supplied it separately from it's Cambrian welsh loco - I saw it on a Railway Modeller featured  layout. It looked rather fiddly so I sent it off to get it built for me - part built because you need to paint and line it BEFORE fitting the outside springs!) It needed a fair bit of hacking as i needed to shorten it slightly. Anway she's done now and runs well, so i now have a presesentation of the four BCDR 0-6-0s at time of closure of the line  - 4 (10 was identical), 14, and 26.  I'd love a 4-6-4  "Baltic" but haven't yet seen anything at all that might be a donor.

 

 

No 26 on a passenger train, carriage sidings at my main station with Coleraine coaling tower. narrow gauge in foreground is part of the layout also.

26 has a Peco coupling on the tender for my 1980s built BCDR coaches.

I need to paint the electrical connection with rail colour...

No 14 (old Tri-ang 3F with original tender  fearfully hacked!); has been re-wheeled with scale as it leapt in the air on some points (even code 100 ones..)

No 4 to left.  Bachmann donor loco and Bachmann 3F tender (NOT outside sprung, thank goodness!)

28 lurking on Ardglass shed in the background..

Colm Flanagan

[jhb171achill]

I absolutely love this layout - more and more please!

[J-Mo Arts]

Seconded, your BCDR stock is lovely and my inspiration for making some of my own! Interested to see if you get anywhere with the Baltic, I'd like to make one too. 

[airfixfan]

Beyer Peacock built very similar Baltic tank locos for the Dutch State Railways. They were more successful as they were designed minus any interference by the staff in Manchester!

[seagoebox]

Jim, surely you mean minus any interference from the staff in Queens Quay!, Beyer proposed two 2-6-4T's but QQ wanted a 4-6-4T, Michael

[Mayner]

Its interesting how overseas railways turned out successful 4-6-4T locomotives while British companies struggled to produce a successful 4-6-4T tank with the notable exception of the  Brighton Baltics. The main problems with the British locos appears to have been poor front end and ashpan design.

On the 3'6" gauge NZR successfully used 4-6-4T for branch line, mixed traffic and suburban design. 

Interestingly the first NZR Baltics the WW Class of was a 1913 development of a 1904 2-6-4T design, the final NZR 4-6-4T design the Wab/Ws class was a 1919 development of a 4-6-2 Mixed Traffic design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NZR_WAB_class

All NZR 4-6-4T Classes were modern designs with long travel valves outside valvegear and free steaming boilers.

[Galteemore]

And as for the Prussian T18….

The BCDR did at least redeem themselves in the rebuilt 2-4-0, No 6…..

[jhb171achill]

Now THAT is one mighty looking yoke.......!

[airfixfan]

9 hours ago, seagoebox said:

Jim, surely you mean minus any interference from the staff in Queens Quay!, Beyer proposed two 2-6-4T's but QQ wanted a 4-6-4T, Michael

Correct Michael the Dutch Baltic tanks were an attractive and successful design. Thanks to input from the BCDR their Baltic tanks based in this design were as much use as a condom machine in a nunnery!

8 hours ago, Mayner said:

Its interesting how overseas railways turned out successful 4-6-4T locomotives while British companies struggled to produce a successful 4-6-4T tank with the notable exception of the  Brighton Baltics. The main problems with the British locos appears to have been poor front end and ashpan design.

On the 3'6" gauge NZR successfully used 4-6-4T for branch line, mixed traffic and suburban design. 

Interestingly the first NZR Baltics the WW Class of was a 1913 development of a 1904 2-6-4T design, the final NZR 4-6-4T design the Wab/Ws class was a 1919 development of a 4-6-2 Mixed Traffic design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NZR_WAB_class

All NZR 4-6-4T Classes were modern designs with long travel valves outside valvegear and free steaming boilers.

The most successful Baltic tanks in the British Isles were possibly the CDR Class 4 locos such as Erne sadly lost in 1968?

[colmflanagan]

The Dutch also had 4-4-2 tanks which look very like the BCDR ones, apart from a lot of "extras". DJH made a kit for this years ago and I seriously considered buying one; it would be in H0, of course, but they were, I think, slightly bigger engines (6' drivers instead of 5'6"). But in the end I bottled out.   A quick look at their website, though tells me they are still both available though by special order and a lot to pay to butcher something...still, the chassis on the Baltic looks pretty close - 

 

Colm

£385.00

olm

[jhb171achill]

Totally agree - if the kit was dirt cheap, maybe. Very nice looking loco, mind you, but I expect that a scratchbuild of the BCDR equivalent might be not just cheaper but more effective?

[Galteemore]

Kirley has built one….https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93496-kirleys-workbench/page/13/#comment-2750461

Edited November 11, 2021 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

Kirley has built one….https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93496-kirleys-workbench/page/13/#comment-2750461

Might go searching for a 4p on eBay to suit the chassis of a different loco….

[Richard EH]

The Oxford rail/or Hornby, Adamas radial makes a good BCDR locomotive. I've converted an Oxford one, James Hilton did the finishing, photo here;

https://paxton-road.blogspot.com/2021/05/commission-irish-4-4-2t-paintwork.html

Note, I've no link to James, just a happy customer!

Richard.

[Tullygrainey]

On 3/11/2021 at 5:09 PM, colmflanagan said:

Donaghadee was only 8 miles from where I was brought up, but I was born too late to see the trains, it was occupied by buses! 

Sort of on this theme, some pics of my latest creation, BCDR No 26; I always liked this little engine when i got a stack of BCDR pictures from a firm in GB in the late 1960's. 

 

Hi Colm

I've only just discovered this thread. I really like your BCDR fleet. Having played on the abandoned trackbed out of East Belfast as a kiddie in the 1960s, I also have a soft spot for the BCDR. You've done a great job with No 26. I had a go at that one using a London Road Models L&Y Barton Wright 2F 0-6-0 kit as a starting point. I'm reasonably pleased with it but I think the proportions are wrong. Two foot rule applies! It also runs like a dog at the moment so some more work needed there.

Can I ask how you handled the BCDR number plates on the cab side? 

 

Best, Alan