Mol_PMB

My stumbling block is that I learnt CAD in the era of 2 dimensions and my brain just can't work out how to draw in 3D. Old dog, new tricks etc. I can visualise how 2D components can be assembled into a 3D shape and so I consider myself competent at designing etched kits, laser-cut structures etc. For 3 dimensions I'm happy to buy from others whose brains work better than mine. Many thanks to all of you! I do have a good resouce of drawings, measurements and diagrams of Irish rolling stock, and happy to support others projects where I can.

Whilst considering the 1940s liveries, it is appropriate to look at CIE's narrow gauge lines, as well as a few oddballs on the main line. These used the same colour palette (dark green and EdN) and the same number and snail elements as the livery already described, but were generally simplified. They were probably applied locally rather than by Inchicore. I'm not a narrow gauge expert so hopefully others will set me straight if I've many any major errors here. The Schull & Skibbereen barely lasted into CIE days but managed to repaint a couple of its carriages in the new livery as shown in @Westcorkrailway's post above. Fry modelled one of these so we can see what it looked like in colour (Thanks again to @jhb171achill for facilitating the photos in the sunshine!). The livery was laid out similarly to the main line stock but with the EdN bands adjusted to suit the dimensions of the carriage. The C&L was slow to repaint their stock and this 1953 photo from Ernie appears to show stock still in GSR livery: Looking at the photos it seems that a couple of the original coaches recieved the dark green and EdN livery, but in this case the waist band of EdN was omitted - only the band at the cantrail was applied. I see no evidence of thin black and white edging to the lining, nor gold edging to the numbers or snails. This may all have been hand painted. In 1956, 3rd class was redesignated 2nd class. Most of the main line carriages still in the old 1940s livery retained their 3 digits until the whole vehicle was repainted (or withdrawn). But the C&L was unusual in adding the '2' digit to the old livery. It's not a standard transfer and was probably hand-painted. Meanwhile, on the West Clare a much plainer dark green scheme was used, with no EdN bands. However, the vehicles still featured class numerals 1 and 3, and a snail, in EdN. Unusually, the vehicle number was placed at the left-hand end rather than the right-hand end as was normal elsewhere. Some photos from Ernie illustrate the livery applied to the existing carriages. The first one is from around 1950 when they were freshly painted, the others are early to mid 1950s: Note that I will deal with the plain dark green liveries of the 'bus coaches' on the WC and C&L in a later post. On the main line network there were a few oddball liveries in the 1940s too. Most of these follow the standard main line livery but omit the lining, and may have fewer class digits than usual. They retain a snail, but those may be smaller than usual (either a smaller transfer as used on horseboxes, or painted as on wagons). They appear to be a cheaper alternative to the standard livery, probably applied at smaller works without expert painters. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508671501 dated 1948 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507885237 dated 1949 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782167 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508837868 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509063704 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509066644 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511647103 dated 1951 Another interesting example is this photo from Ernie, where we can see the old GSR class digits ghosting through under the CIE 3's. The snail is smaller than usual and there is no sign of any lining: All those oddballs are ancient rolling stock perhaps given an 'austerity' repaint at one of the smaller outstations, as mentioned by @jhb171achill in his post above. But this one is a mystery - GSR 1930s composite 2114, photographed in 1947, with class digits and snails but no lining. Unusually the number appears to be at the left hand end. Assuming that the date is correct, the vehicles either side are likely still in worn GSR livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343 That concludes my story of the CIE livery in the 1940s, indeed it is true for most of the year 1950 too. Things were about to change, CIE would be nationalised and a revised livery would be introduced, but I'll leave that story for another day.

Many thanks, good finds. At least one of the Drumm sets was converted as an AEC railcar intermediate and was repainted to match.

Nice pics. Good reminder about the vehicles inherited from the GNR - CIE produced an updated livery drawing when the GNR stock was absorbed, which survives in the IRRS archives, and that was the final version of the green livery. I'll get to that in 1958 which is some weeks away, we have several more variants of the green livery to discuss first...

@Westcorkrailway, that photo at Courtmacsherry is excellent, showing 1 coach with the elaborately lined and lettered 1940s dark green, in a train otherwise in plain dark green. I've found another colour image of the late 1940s livery; this is Colour Rail image FIE05598 dated July 1956. Again the green appears to have darkened with age, which appears quite common with this livery. World Railways | International Train Photographs | Colour-Rail Thanks also for the narrow gauge images. My plan is that the next post will briefly address the 1940s livery on the narrow gauge, plus a few 1940s era 'oddballs' on the main line network. Then I will step into the 1950s, starting with the plain dark green. But all this takes a LOT of time to research, gathering and comparing contemporary documents and photos, so please bear with me. In the meantime please feel free to add any more colour (or otherwise interesting) images of the 1940s elaborately lined livery.

Thanks, that’s good to know on the paint colours. I agree that much of the older stock was purged in the mid-1950s and this would have seen off many vehicles in the late 1940s green livery with elaborate lining. This is why I started the thread looking at the composition of the fleet through the years to illustrate the purges. Also, with a repainting interval of around 7 years, coaches that had been painted in the late 1940s would be due for a repaint in the mid 1950s, so those which survived the purge would have received a new paint job then anyway.

Ah, excellent, I’d missed that post. That was my preferred option from the BS381C colours. So, BS381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green is confirmed for the dark green. It also helps to confirm that BS381C was the standard being used at that time. That will become useful in due course…

Here's a nice photo from Kevin Lane on Flickr. It's August 1957 and a lengthy railcar set trundles through the streets of Cork. Among the trailers are two compartment seconds of the 1350-1355 through-wired batch, and a compo, probably former Enterprise luggage compo 2129 which appears in correspondence in the IRRS archives: The distant power car is a Wedgehead, which would have been almost brand new.

I had a look for my B4 bogies this afternoon but failed to find them! I'm sure I bought a set, and they are with some other IRM accessories I got at the same time. They must be in one of those safe places. I'll have another look in the week - hopefully I'll get some inspiration about where I put them!

I forgot to add the photos of Fry's models, as contemporary examples of this livery. Note how he has painstakingly replicated the black and white lines bordering the EdN bands, and the gold outlines on the snails and class digits:

Some more pics in ‘The 5-minute Bell’:

Ironically, all the photos I've found of them seem to show the same side! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093944 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505927307 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509203665 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/50347175468/ But since they were built for the MGWR, which had platforms on both sides, it would be odd to only have doors on one side! Your next choice will be whether to have spoked wheels, disc wheels or half rice half chips...

You want a photo showing both sides at once?

Now, looking at the application of the lining and lettering. Again I'm relying heavily on the IRRS photos here. This 6-wheel brake composite shows most of the main elements. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509203855 At the waist is a band of EdN, edged in black, then a small gap of the underlying dark green, then a fine white line. At the cantrail is a broader band of EdN, which on most vehicles goes right up to the top of the side. The lower edge of it has the black/green/white edging, same as the waist. The class digits are on every passenger door, either 1 or 3. On a 6-wheeler, usually one snail near the middle. The GUARD label is set below the waist band. The running number is at the right-hand end of the waist band, dark green on the EdN band. Here's a gangwayed bogie coach as another example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508776551 The livery elements are the same, and we can see the running number a bit more clearly here. Bogie coaches usually had two snails spaced at roughly 1/3 and 2/3 positions. Usually the snail was placed in the centre of a panel or under the centre of a window. This asymmetric coach has forced unusual positions for the snails: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508909923 On 6-wheelers, if there was a door in the middle, then the snail would be placed to one side, but centred in a panel like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506934694 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782217 This bogie compartment coach shows just how many transfers were needed when there were lots of doors! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508744101 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509091095 Here are a few more examples: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507982732 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782292 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507783152 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507855512 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508749006 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508749091 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508772881 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511332328 Although the running number was placed near the right hand end, it was not put on doors. The door locations on these coaches have forced the running number to be further along: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746391 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746831 Dining cars did not have a class designation on the doors, nor did they have any lettering such as 'buffet' 'diner', or 'staff only'. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507855727 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509170280 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509199030 This tea car had the catering portion at the left-hand end (with classless door) and the right-hand end of the carriage was a normal third class saloon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172565 Ambulance cars were also anonymous: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093119 Mail vans and TPOs carried the post office lettering, and if fitted with a mailbox that carried the appropriate instructions: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880537 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507981522 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748391 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748866 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172140 Departmental vans and sleeping cars were also outshopped in this livery, and these usually did have extra lettering to describe their purpose. Their number was also in EdN on a dark green background, rather than on the waist band: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508772891 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093334 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507984227/ On the end, at the corner near the running number, the tare weight of the carriage was applied in small EdN numerals, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499187525 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507885547 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509191254 My understanding is that the underframe and ends were painted black initially, though they would become discoloured with brownish brake dust and rail dirt. The roofs were tarred canvas which was also nominally black, although it would weather to a dark grey. The sides were in theory cleaned more often, but the contrast between these two carriages shows that it didn't always happen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509173865 Hopefully that gives you enough info to put the transfers in the right place!

Richard Maclachlan at the IRRS has digitised a large number of drawings and documents from the archives and has made some of these available for purchase in electronic format. One of his documents is DCD 006.1 CIE Rolling Stock Painting and Lining Schedules.pdf and this contains several useful drawings relating to this late 1940s CIE livery. I won't reproduce those here and I would encourage you to support Richard's ongoing work by buying a download if you are interested. Dated 18th November 1946, drawing 26850 shows the 'flying snail' transfer for carriage stock in EdN with gold edging. The overall height of the EdN portion is 14", with a 1/4" gold line outside that on the circular portion. The 'wings' have a 1/8" gold edging. Drawing number 26848 268?? (last two digits illegible) shows the other transfers for carriage stock. Some of these are for the interior, and others are for NPCCS, but the relevant ones for the carriage exterior are: Class digits 1, 3: 12" high EdN with 1/8" gold edging GUARD: : 2.5" high EdN with 1/16" gold edging Vehicle numbers: 2.5" high dark green with 1/8" gold edging Number suffix letters: 1.5" high dark green with 1/8" gold edging Tare weight numbers, fractions and T: 2" high EdN The drawing also notes 'Eau-de-Nil to BSS 381C 1948 No 216' which looks right: Note that while transfers were used for the lettering, the lining was hand-painted. The shade of EdN on the transfers does not always exactly match the painted bands of EdN, even when new and especially when faded. The reason that the vehicle numbers are in dark green is that they were applied on top of the EdN waist band. Although dark green is mentioned several times on the transfer drawing, the precise shade is not given. Colour matching to surviving examples of the dark green paint by IRM and @jhb171achill showed that it was a good match to RAL 150 30 30, and I agree this looks a good match. This is the thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8724-ral-numbers-for-authentic-railway-liveries/ RAL colour standards are of German origin and have developed over time; back in the 1940s 'RAL 150 30 30' was meaningless and Irish or British paint manufacturers would probably not have recognised the earlier RAL descriptions. The drawing gives the EdN colour reference according to British Standard BS 381C 1948, so it's reasonably likely that the dark green was also chosen from BS 381C 1948. That standard has many greens but the only ones that are close are the following shades: 226, 227, 276, 277: Edit: see posts below, the correct shade is confirmed as BS 381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green. https://www.rawlinspaints.com/content/british-standard-381c#_Toc15638682 It is also possible that the dark green was chosen from the earlier Colour Council (CC) or British Colour Council (BCC) ranges, which were referenced as the basis of CIE's later 1961 livery. Those standards gave the following dark greens: Bottle green CC 107, BCC 25 Cossack green BCC 105 (equivalent to BS 276 Lincoln green) Ivy green CC 252 Mallard Green CC 102 (equivalent to BS 226 Mid Brunswick green) Thistle Green CC 257 (equivalent to BS 227 Deep Brunswick green) https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.14074/page/n31/mode/2up?q=green It's hard to find comprehensive colour charts for these old colours online. However, BS 226, BS 227 and BS 276 all have equivalents in the older standard. Note that all the standards also include lighter shades of Brunswick green and we may come across those much later in the thread... I ordered a tin of CIE green from Phoenix Precision Paints, which arrived labelled 'P892 Tank Green (Dull)'. It's a dark, slightly bluish green that I would place close to BS381C 227 Deep Brunswick Green. I would say it's a reasonable representation for CIE dark green on a dullish day. If you want a slightly warmer shade as seen on a sunny day, then Humbrol 3 is a good bet, maybe a fraction too light. A mix of the two could be ideal, assuming they don't curdle!

CIE was formed in 1945 by merging the GSR with DUTC (which operated Dublin's buses) and the DUTC livery and logo were adopted for CIE. So perhaps it's appropriate to start with some contemporary DUTC buses to introduce CIE's first livery. The DUTC livery was predominantly dark green, with bands of a lighter green known as 'Eau de Nil' (water of the Nile) which I'll be abbreviating to EdN in this thread. Here's a great photo by Neil Smith on Flickr showing a preserved 1940s DUTC bus: Here's another photo from https://irishbuses.ie/100-years-of-buses-in-dublin/ showing the same bus amongst some others. One of the features of the dark green used in this livery is that its apparent 'warmth' is very dependent on the lighting. In sunshine it can look rich and warm, whereas in dull light it looks more blue and cold. The same is true of carriages painted in this livery. If we zoom in on Neil's photo, we can see that there are some other colours in the scheme. The EdN band is edged with black lining, and then a thin white line. Meanwhile, the flying snail logo is edged in gold. These same details were also used on the rail version: The very first edition of the IRRS Journal was published in June 1947 and included the following paragraph: No new coaching stock has appeared owing to the shortage of materials, so work has chiefly consisted in reconditioning and repairing the present stock. Large numbers of coaches have been painted in two shades of green (these include the former Pullmans) and some have been provided with new upholstery in pleasing shades of old rose for first class and orange for third class. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, colour film was extremely expensive and beyond the means of most railway photographers. It was also prone to deterioration over time. So it's hard to find good colour photos of this livery in railway use. Scroll up a few posts and you'll find a link to the train scenes in the film 'The Quiet Man' which provides the best contemporary colour evidence of this livery on railway carriages. The film was released in 1952 and I assume it was filmed the previous summer, when this livery was widespread. A major movie would have used good quality colour film, but there may well have been some additional lighting used which could influence the apparent shades of green. Nevertheless it's a good source. Look closely at these stills and you'll see the EdN band edged with black, and then a fine white line spaced a short distance away, just like on the bus: This colour photo from Trainiac on Flickr is dated July 1950, but the visible side of the coaches isn't very well lit. The leading coach is one of the 1930s GSR coaches similar to those we saw previously in GSR livery. Ernie's collection on Flickr includes a better-lit shot of a 6-wheeler dated 3 August 1953. Note that the van behind is in a filthy version of the same livery. This photo appeared on the front cover of IRRS journal 112, dated '1950s', but has an odd colour cast: The book 'Irish Traction in Colour' (Huntriss) includes two photos of the same train dated September 1958, including a very late survivor in this early livery: Note the contrasting shade of green compared to the other coach in the rake. We'll come to that later! Again from Ernie, and on the W&T section the former Clayton twin carriages are about to be withdrawn in April 1956, still carrying the first CIE livery: Again from Ernie, this photo of a rake of withdrawn 6-wheelers may be as late as 1960 and the carriage just right of centre still bears its 1940s livery. The weathering of this livery seems inconsistent - some (like the Claytons above) seem to have got darker, whereas others (like this 6-wheeler) seem to have faded: Another faded vehicle is this sleeping car, converted around 1947 and painted in this scheme, and still retaining it a decade later. The adjacent vehicle is in a later, lighter green scheme. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501 That's all I've got for colour photos of this late 1940s livery, hopefully others will chip in with some more as @Westcorkrailway kindly did with the GSR. My next post will give some more details of this livery including the colours, lining, lettering and logo layout on a variety of coaches. I'll illustrate that with the much more numerous monochrome images.

Inherited Livery: GSR Maroon When CIE was formed at the start of January 1945 in a doomed attempt to resolve the financial crisis at the GSR, it was still wartime across much of the world and Ireland had been suffering from desparate shortages of fuel and materials for 5 years. Railway services had been reduced to a skeleton timetable, some lines were closed entirely and at times even the main lines only had 3 or 4 passenger trains each week. Scarce resources were focused on moving indigenous fuel and foodstuffs. Fuel shortages remained a problem into the late 1940s, especially during the severe winter of 1947. Material shortages, particularly steel, continued into the 1950s. An example of these challenges is that in 1947, the board approved a £40,000 investment to fit electric lighting to 105 gas-lit coaches, but it took until late 1948 to procure the materials (dynamos, batteries etc.) and by the end of 1949 only 6 carriages had been converted. With little money and shortages of materials, the GSR and then CIE had struggled to maintain their carriages in the 1940s, but conversely fewer carriages were needed owing to the very limited service being offered at the time. As Ireland began to return to normality, there was a carriage maintenance backlog to overcome to provide a fleet to operate the trains. In the late 1940s there still wasn't much money or steel to build new vehicles, so CIE initially focused on repairing and repainting their old carriages. Contemporary records state that 94 coaches were repaired between 1/1/1949 and 28/2/1950, equivalent to about 80 each year. It would have taken a decade to refurbish the whole fleet at that rate. Consequently, in the first few years of CIE operation, the GSR livery was still very much in evidence. So although this is thread on CIE liveries, I'll start with a few illustrations of the GSR livery in CIE days. I'm not going to describe this in detail as I haven't researched it, and I think it has been well described elsewhere. Here's a photo of GSR 1335 when it was operating with the RPSI and restored to GSR livery: https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/48/1335-corridor-third The 1940s GSR livery was very similar to the contemporary LMS livery - although by the late 1940s it was faded and worn. A rare colour illustration dated July 1947 is included in Irish Railways in Colour vol 2 (Ferris) page 31, copied below. Two and a half years into the life of the new CIE, and the majority of the train remains in tatty GSR maroon; only a couple of vehicles are in the new green livery which I will describe in the next post. Looking at photos from the 1940s, there isn't an obvious order of priority for the repaints. Obscure vehicles like stores vans could be repainted years ahead of relatively modern bogie coaches. These two IRRS photos dated March 1948 shows one of the 1930s GSR coaches still in GSR maroon (same scheme as the RPSI coach pictured above), while a couple of 6-wheel vans carry the new scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880537 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507976717 Here a GSWR bogie coach is still in GSR colours in 1948: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746631 Some of the 'Special' coaches seem to have been a long way down the queue for repaints, perhaps a reflection of the austere times. Here are the MGWR saloon 346 and the GSWR inspection car still in GSR livery in 1948: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880577 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509173735 Tea car 74D was certainly in use in the 1950s and wasn't withdrawn until 1962, but is seen here in tatty GSR livery in CIE days, apparently '1950s'. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509025733 In the late 1940s there were rows of carriage rotting away at Inchicore (and elsewhere) still in the remnants of GSR livery, and I suspect that these were withdrawn in the cull of 1949 (see first post) and never received CIE livery. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507775092 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508664186 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508838758 In the next post I'll get onto the first proper CIE livery. Note: I'll be linking to a lot of IRRS Flickr photos in this thread, because it's by far the largest source of old photos of Irish railways. To illustrate what I need to, it is hard to find alternatives in many cases. You need to be an IRRS member to see the IRRS Flickr archive, and I would highly recommend it. Apologies to those who aren't members, you won't be able to see many of the linked images.

Ah, that's very interesting, thank you. I thought you might be the man who would know. So the technique and equipment changed several times, even in the orange and black era. Although there's an anecdote of spray painting being trialled at Inchicore in the late 1950s (with some problems), perhaps it wasn't successful at that stage and had to wait another decade. I think British Rail introduced the airless spray system in the mid-1960s with the blue livery, but again there were several changes in equipment and technique.

I've scanned a couple more photos of the camping coaches from the book 'The 5-Minute Bell' (Frank O'Donoghue) which is a good read for those interested in the W&T. One of these may need to go in my thread on AEC railcar tail traffic too!

Interesting - thanks! That's good to know. 100 worked there too, at one stage. Like Castleisland and Courtmacsherry, Fenit seems to have attracted the smaller locos.

I have a wheel puller and I have made some extra tools for it including a hollow-tipped one so that I can push on a pinpoint without blunting it. However, the non-insulated IRM wheels on 2mm axles are very hard to shift. I can do it, but if the ones on 1mm axles are as tight a fit then I'd be wary of bending the thinner axle. I tend to discard the IRM wheels and replace them with EM profile wheels as the IRM wheels have a surprisingly coarse profile. I guess that's to suit a wide range of OO track standards, but it's not ideal for EM. I put the EM wheels on the IRM 28mm axle once I've pushed the old wheels off. That's OK when the axles are 2mm diameter but doesn't work for 1mm axles. The EM profile wheels I use are insulated so would not be ideal for lighting pickups either. All these problems can be solved but it's a faff, hence the attraction of getting a batch made up of exactly what we're after.

Thanks. And since almost all replacement wheels will suit 2mm axles, it's not an easy fix. I'll try and find my pack of B4 bogies tomorrow and have a closer look and a measure.

201 class in IR livery: From the February 1993 IRRS journal.

Presumably the length over the pinpoints is then also too long? is it possible to shift the wheels on the stub axles?

Here's another view of the Tramore camping coach, from a different angle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527322206