jhb171achill

Looking closer at that wartime film coach..... it is NOT the GSWR one shown above. I don't know what it is myself, though the design of it looks vaguely GNR. The balcony ended coach was 352, I believe, not 353, and it was scrapped in 1964. I had thought 1966 was a bit late for that vehicle, as was the green livery for a vehicle like that (though green was still to be seen on Park Royals and other "ordinary" stock). I wonder if that pic was taken on an IRRS trip ("outing", as they still quaintly, and somewhat worryingly, call it!) to Castlecomer in the early 60s? That was, I believe, one of the last times - if not THE last - that this beauty saw a day out in traffic.

Well, I've no idea what an "Attymon Carriage Enniscorthy" is....typical ebay drivel caption.... That last scene is clearly for a film, but which one? What's the carriage? The dull grey / green (certainly not CIE's) maybe intended to be wartime Italy or Germany?

......... and ..... a little more research tonight confirms that the container parts were indeed dark green. the black ones must have been on the Asahis - I'll check that too.

I found one old photo which appears to have standard brown wagons (as presumed; bogies naturally also brown). The container is an extremely dark green - almost black. I am pretty certain that some others were black, but at least this one was definitely a very dark green - probably the shade applied to the lower parts and bogies of the Anhydrous Ammonia tankers. The word "WATER" was stencilled on its side, midway, in letters which I suspect were about a foot high. No other markings or logos are on the actual tank container.

Superb. Did you make the actual tank out of plasticard or buy it? And if so, where, because I might like one like that!

Correct, folks. This project is indeed subjected to a "can't do" attitude; not because of the comments of the naysayers, but because of the truth on their statements and the unrealistic, albeit well-meant proposals of the promoters. It's a case, unfortunately, of "don't shoot the messenger"!

My recollection is black, but they were dirty. The chassis of the ammonia tanks themselves was in a very dark green like UTA green - maybe slightly darker, so it's possible they were painted in that. Old black paintwork can fade to just about anything, depending on the undercoat below it (and Inchicore used a lot of undercoat in various greenish shades); and the compounds within the particular brand of paint. I have seen badly faded maroon paint which looks brown, other examples pink, or a salmony colour. I have seen badly faded green paint looking bluish, or brown, or even a nondescript yellowy colour. Thus, photos of green-looking barrier wagons could be just black faded to that. I will delve a little more and try to find a definitive answer. The bogie wagons the containers were carried on were standard CIE brown, heavily weathered in brake dust.

Now, boys and girls, if THAT doesn't look amazing in N gauge, I dunno what does!

I understand that ECM Trains are planning a RTR 141. Since the 141s were for years the mainstay of many lines, in some cases almost to the exclusion of all else, a layout populated by half a dozen of these beasts would do well. My understanding is that it won't come cheap, but will be of exceptionally high standard, as per all from the ECM stable.

If it is going to be a kit, easier to get an actual Irish kit rather than xmend a British one. Studio Scale Models, Provincial Wagons and others here will go a good starting place.

If only ballast trains were still steam hauled! I remember them that way many moons ago.......

Correct, Noel...it was 1970s (1971 specifically, as mentioned) so the 1960s were indeed all about four wheelers. And naturally, a black'n'tan loco could be seen on later container trains until the very last ones got Supertrain livery, which wasn't until about 1979.

I am sure I am not the only one who watches the extremely high standards of modelling of the likes of Mayner, ECM Eoin, Messrs Holman and many others here. As others have said, much of what the better modellers here do is not so much modelling as fine engineering. Unfortunately, not all of us are anywhere near that league - I'm certainly not. Thus, like many, I outsource the more complicated things. One such item has been with the maker-up now for several years..... The completion date keeps getting put back and back and back and back. And it's not a cheap thing either, and I've paid for it. Maybe that wasn't such a good idea. I'll elaborate on that in the future should it be something to warn others of. So, the question: is there a good list somewhere of who can take on commissions? And, of what type? Some prefer to work with plastic, some brass, some both. And I accept that time doesn't exactly grow on trees when model-makers often have day jobs too, though at the least a realistic timescale should be given on commencement. Indeed, if anybody is available and in a position to deal with several matters for me, might I ask you to PM me? No harm in asking.....!

Which one is that, Wrenn, and is it 00 scale? I could paint it in 1970s orange and white.

I'd be looking for one of the type used about 1960-3, also typical mid 70s. I seem to remember Renault ones in 70s - would that be right or have I got my timescales wrong? They had started painting them orange with white doors then.

Mfjoc - that sounds correct. islandbridge - correct. There were never any purpose-built Craven catering vehicles - only those two conversions. If it was 1988, newer livery variant only. Pre 1986, Cravens were mixed in with laminates, Park Royals and 1953-6 24xx dining cars completely; as well as Brendon's while they were still running (last one about 1976), and the last few old wooden GSWR carriages (last withdrawn 1974). All were regarded as a common fleet. Only the new air-con Mk 2 tin cans were kept separate. Their corridor gangways didn't match anything else.

The cardboard one alone is worth having!

In that case, 1508/9 would not have run as catering cars in older livery style. Only the post-1987 IE style with orange and white lines above, and white line below windows. Which means that as firsts, they were only ever in the older livery with only white above windows, and no white below.

Will do!

My preference is a handwritten message on a €200 note.

The bookface page suggesting / promoting this has dropped the idea.

I'm just wondering when 1508/9 were converted.... was it pre-1990?

That's a much improved track plan, too. Looking forward to seeing this.

Excellent. See ye in the Step Inn; a pint of Guinness awaits. (We'll have to do that some time now that I know you're local....)

There has been a long running discussion on what way things in preservation should be finished. As a teenage volunteer at Whitehead (over forty years ago) I worked on carriage restoration. The old wooden coaches were painted outdoors (no carriage shed, let alone scaffolding, safety harnesses, day-glo jackets, hard hats, or anything). Any paint that was donated, or could be got cheap, went on carriages. So, when those who might say "stop whinging about liveries and get your sleeves rolled up!" speak, I can absolutely sympathise. I am also, as those long-suffering here will know all too well, of the opinion that in this day and age, there is no reason NOT to paint things accurately, and for trying to pass on accurate information about the external appearance of things. So, truly, i do see both sides, and consider myself neutral, believe it or not. Both have a point; but neither are exclusively right. Opinion 1. The "livery doesn't matter" brigade. "It doesn't matter what colour it is, as long as it's preserved". (Maybe, but if it was blue, why not paint it blue instead of red?) "If it was broken up, there'd be no fuss, but paint it the wrong colour and there's war!" (very valid point!) "Sure they never painted them the same colour anyway. Inchicore / Dundalk / York Road* (*delete as applicable) just went to the local paint shop and bought what green / maroon / blue* (delete as applicable) they had in stock!" (Abject nonsense; all railways took a pride in their appearance and corporate images, and the GNR and GSR even appointed chemists in Inchicore and Dundalk, part of whose remit was to ensure consistency of paint mixes. Livery changes were deliberate, and the above urban myth appears to have originated in Whitehead in the early 1970s when it was pointed out by older people that the blue they initially painted 171 in was far, far too light!) "Well, I don't like grey locos. I like it black". (A pity, because while you're doing the work, and fair play to you; others aren't - perhaps the opinion of more than just the painter ought to be considered, especially if the thing was never black in real life?) Opinion 2. The committed non-nonsense volunteer. "You're standing on the platform there wittering on about the wrong gangway connection on this coach, and I've just spent three &*^# weekends in the freezing %$*^ cold, for no pay, painting it and varnishing it, and all you can come up with is that it's the WRONG *&^% livery!! I don't see YOU rolling up your sleeves doing anything useful!!" (Very, very valid point; though a little effort on paint choice might have made everyone happy for no extra effort?). "I haven't time to paint anything any colour. I have two broken toilets to fix before the train on Saturday, and I've no help. I'm supposed to be posting out newsletters this evening because they're two months overdue, but I don't think I'll be home on time, as i have to do overtime tonight in order to steam raise on Sunday morning - while you're in your bed!" (Completely valid!) Opinion 3. The historian. "This loco never had lining like that in traffic". (Yes, but it can be painted out of necessary?) "If a vehicle is worth preserving, it's worth doing it right and finishing it right". (If it hasn't been started already absolutely correct) "They should repaint this, and paint that one there the correct way." (And who, exactly, is "they"? Will you make a start this weekend, and buy the paint yourself?) Opinion 4. The armchair railway enthusiast. Well, they'll trot out the "should paint it this way" line too - but the answers from those at the front line are best not printed here! MY bottom line: It is clearly as easy to paint something one colour as another. Cravens were painted in a new livery - initially all over blue with yellow lining, later blue and cream, because of two reasons. First, IE were still using some stuff in orange and black, and wanted the Society to "distance" itself livery-wise from IE stock in case of public confusions over identity. Secondly, and this also applies to the Society's Whitehead set, those involved took the view that something entirely different was appropriate. Since Cravens were never in green (fine, though, they'd have looked in it), it's no more inaccurate to paint them blue as green. Some of the Whitehead Mk 2s never even ran here at all, and even the Irish ones never ran behind steam, so an approximation to a steam-era livery might do. Locos, heritage coaches and wagons: throughout the entire Irish heritage movement, those decorated incorrectly sometimes garishly so (like the zebra-striped "Ivan" at Whitehead), greatly outnumber those finished correctly. This even applies to every single goods vehicle in Cultra, the Castlederg and C & L coaches, and the incorrect tender markings on 800. I could go on, but reading my own comments above would appear not just churlish but hypocritical, given my opening comments. To preservationists I say - as a retired one, i unconditionally support everything you do. FULL stop. But surely, with the "exception of the exceptions"(!), like cravens, it's better to finish things accurately, The colour is the first thing you see of anything, and it's as easy to do it right as wrong, and nor more expensive....so.....! You are also providing value for historians, film-makers and modellers with no extra effort. What's arguable against that? To modellers I say - it's YOUR layout. You want a pink Fintona tram hauled by a tartan 201 class? Fine. Nobody can say you're "wrong". You want to buy a highly expensive kit and make it up wrongly? Sure. Your money, your time, your layout. BUT: if you want accuracy, as SOME do, its good for (a) the information to be out there, chapter and verse, and (b) it's a great pity if even a museum or operator of the genuine preserved article leads you unwittingly astray in terms of its appearance. Over'n'out. I'm sticking the kettle on, if anyone wants a refill.