Irish Railway Models A Class Re-wheeled to 21mm

[JohnMcGahern]

[murphaph]

They look totally different IMO. I'm gonna try to relay my little test oval in 21mm (though for functional purposes only, so I'll only solder in a PCB sleeper in every 5th position to save wasting them) and then I want to regauge an A. Did you just push the original wheels out?

Oh and welcome to the forum John!

Edited January 13, 2022 by murphaph

[JohnMcGahern]

Thanks for the welcome Murphaph!  Yes I did, just pushed them out and slid on the P4 wheels.  The nice thing about the IRM A Class is one, they give you the wide axels and two, because of that you also get to keep the rotating axel boxes.  I re-wheeled my MM 121 last year but since the axels are standard narrower 00 width I had to cut and install my own wider axels as I did in the past with the 141, 181 and 071s and as of yet have not figured out a way to attach them to the ends.  Having said that, I honestly don't even focus on the rotating boxes on either model so I'm thinking of just permanently fixing them to the outside of the bogies, unless someone on here has got any suggestions?

[murphaph]

Ah so you have replaced with P4 wheels and retired the IRM ones? I intend just pushing out the IRM ones and keeping them. Would it be an option with the 121 to cut the original axles and sheath them with brass tube so you keep the ends somehow?

[JohnMcGahern]

Yes, I replaced with P4 wheels as the profile (flanges and tyre width) are too big to fit through the point crossings, so if you have P4 track then you won't be able to keep the original wheels. Hmm, now there's something worth trying.  The problem is getting them to sit perfectly without any wobble.  Like I said before though, as I forget they're even rotating half the time, I'm not sure I'd be willing to put in the effort.  In fact, the only time I've looked at the rotation recently on the A Class recently was watching the video I made 

[Brendan8056]

John,

           That looks superb as does your trackwork.

Phil, I have re-gauged an A using the original wheelsets and axles. It really was easy and the axle ends still rotate. The hardest bit was carefully taking out the wheelsets and re fitting the bogie sides afterwards. Also if fitted with the speedo cable (top left in below picture) make sure that wheelset goes back in the correct place in the bogie, as it has the rotating hub on one end only. 

 

[Galteemore]

5 hours ago, JohnMcGahern said:

 

 

awesome stuff. May we see more please ?

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Galteemore

[JohnMcGahern]

42 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

 

awesome stuff. May we see more please ?

 

 

Are you asking me or Brendan?

[Galteemore]

2 minutes ago, JohnMcGahern said:

 

Are you asking me or Brendan?

Either. Always good to hear from 5’3 folks on here ! Is that your real name - or are you a fan of the great novelist ?! 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Galteemore

[JohnMcGahern]

Ha!  No, that's my real name. Shamefully I've never read a word of his!

 

[murphaph]

John are you strictly following P4 standards?

If so, how much work have you had to put in to compensation, if any on your other rolling stock?

Have you any other pics of other stock converted to 21mm?

 

[JohnMcGahern]

Regarding the P4 profiled wheels yes, as any standard 00 will not fit through the crossings.  As far rolling stock is concerned.  Since my layout is a 6 x 2.5 shunting yard there no coaches, just wagons.  Compensation:  Ironically, I found that the wagons I did compensate derail more than the ones that I didn't.  Having examined the bottom of the compensation I have since realized that I didn't aline the two sets of wheels perfectly, and I believe this is the problem.  With the uncompensated ones, it's just a simple case of gluing the sole bars to the body approximately 1.5 - 2mm out from center.  FOr some strange reason they work perfectly fine.  So in future I won't be bothering with that extra step.   Based on that I strongly believe that the most important factor is as close to perfectly laid track as possible.  ie; joints should be as flush as possible and the overall track as flat as possible.  I don't build in situ but construct each piece on a piece of glass (can't get any flatter than that) over Templot templates, test run them on the glass with a loco/wagon then transfer them afterwards.  I dod "cheat"  with the crossings however (purchased from C+L Finescale)  as I found trying to construct my own far too frustrating.  Everyone has a different level of patience I suppose.     I found the best route was to buy some Parkside Dundas kits as I found trying to manipulate a standard Hornby or Bachman model was too difficult.  Just to add,  I'm not so much a P4 stickler that I have to have everything perfect and the odd elitist may not approve of my methods but I care more about making it work mechanically well rather than going against the "allowable tolerances".   Example: You may have noticed a wobble on my A Class video, yes that bothers me and I will try to fix it, but other stuff I can live with.   II'll take some more pictures/videos when I get the chance.  

[JohnMcGahern]

Furthermore to an example of my not so fussy P4 ways...If you look at the beginning of the video you can see one of my rail joints.  I'm using a standard Peco joiner as opposed to having nothing but the P4 soldered scale fishplate.  I do like to  use those wherever I can, but that depends on the accuracy and flushness of the two adjoining rails.  If the two rails aren't sitting flush for whatever reason then I simply use a Peco rail joiner which would make for a nice flush connection and thus smoother running of rolling stock.  Honestly speaking at my age and deteriorating vision, the scale fishplates are only there for the benefit of better photos. 

[irishthump]

That's some lovely work there John.

The proper wheel gauge really makes a difference to the look of these models.

[JohnMcGahern]

Thank you sir!  Yes it does, especially for the Irish models with the difference between 16.5mm and 21mm.  At 4.5mm that's 13.46 inches in real life!  If I was modelling English stock I don't think I'd bother with only 2.33mm difference but this is almost twice the difference.

[JohnMcGahern]

A few more photos...

[jhb171achill]

Track looks amazing too. Perhaps colour the shiny wheels? Overall, excellent job.

[Brendan8056]

John,

          Your pointwork is so realistic, I have done plain track with C&L and Peco parts but still stick to copperclad for points, so they lack the detail of yours.

Here is another picture of the gauge change to 21mm. I am doing an article for "New Irish Lines", those who have yet to  subscribe should consider doing so, as it is an inspiring read for Irish modellers of all gauges and scales.

          

[Galteemore]

Great work Brendan. Another vote for NIL from me. It’s a brilliant resource which includes many fine Irish modellers who don’t post on here. When I sold my 3’ layout this week, I also gave the young purchaser a back copy of NIL to encourage him to sign up!

Edited January 15, 2022 by Galteemore

[JohnMcGahern]

11 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Track looks amazing too. Perhaps colour the shiny wheels? Overall, excellent job.

Thanks!  Yeah, I only just installed the wheels and still trying to correct a couple of wobbly ones so once I'm happy with it I'll spray paint then.

3 hours ago, Brendan8056 said:

John,

          Your pointwork is so realistic, I have done plain track with C&L and Peco parts but still stick to copperclad for points, so they lack the detail of yours.

Here is another picture of the gauge change to 21mm. I am doing an article for "New Irish Lines", those who have yet to  subscribe should consider doing so, as it is an inspiring read for Irish modellers of all gauges and scales.

          

Thanks for the compliment, always great to get feedback positive or negative as we sometimes wonder what kind of a job we're doing.  So what kind of spacing do you have at your crossings?  It must be like 00 right?  If that's the case I almost wish I'd have known that years ago as it would be a lot less hassle!   

[scahalane]

The track looks amazing. Work of art.

[Patrick Davey]

Simply jaw dropping, both loco and trackwork!

[Mike 84C]

The extra width in track gauge seems to give a more "beefy" presence, muscular! Track and loco look very good. And welcome to the forum.

[StevieB]

The track looks the part.

Stephen

[Brendan8056]

John,

          I have a few posts about trackwork, here is one relating to some points I built last year, I hope that is helpful.

           https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8752-freelance-mixed-gauge-handbuilt-trackwork/?do=findComment&comment=138410

 

[JohnMcGahern]

5 hours ago, scahalane said:

The track looks amazing. Work of art.

Thank you!

5 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

Simply jaw dropping, both loco and trackwork!

Thank you!

2 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

The extra width in track gauge seems to give a more "beefy" presence, muscular! Track and loco look very good. And welcome to the forum.

Thank you!

1 hour ago, StevieB said:

The track looks the part.

Stephen

Thank you!

[JohnMcGahern]

1 hour ago, Brendan8056 said:

John,

          I have a few posts about trackwork, here is one relating to some points I built last year, I hope that is helpful.

           https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8752-freelance-mixed-gauge-handbuilt-trackwork/?do=findComment&comment=138410

 

Awesome work Brendan.  It actually reminds me of a technique used by a company here in North America called Fast Tracks.  I had tried their 00 point work years ago and loved the smoothness of the crossover with no "drop" as the vee and adjacent rails were a lot closer together than a standard Peco point.  I still have their point jig which is made out of some sort of metal which you would solder the sleepers to the rails in.  I'll throw in a pic so you can see it.  Anyway I had actually contacted the company years ago and inquired about a custom point jig in 21mm - needless to say the price was ridiculous so I decline and that's how I got started in P4.  Actually I still have a bag of copper clad sleepers which I use for my 'tiebars" on the points.  A complete fluke as they fit under the bullhead rail and slide back and forth with just enough resistance to keep the point rails tight against the stock rails.  I solder the point rails to the copper clad tiebar.  I then use a push rod from underneath the layout to switch the points as well as an electrical switch to change the polarity. 

[chrvdv]

Hello John,

As I would like to convert my A class to 21 mm gauge wheels as well, I would like to know what wheels you used. I looked at all the usual suppliers for 3'2" wheels but couldn't find any at all.

Christian

 

[David Holman]

Wonderful stuff John. Converting the A class to 21mm really has gilded the lily. Love the pragmatism too - if it works, don't fix it. The track work just looks splendid.

[JohnMcGahern]

On 17/2/2022 at 3:26 PM, chrvdv said:

Hello John,

As I would like to convert my A class to 21 mm gauge wheels as well, I would like to know what wheels you used. I looked at all the usual suppliers for 3'2" wheels but couldn't find any at all.

Christian

 

Hi Christian, It's been a while since I purchased any wheels from this guy who I believe is in England but gets these wheels that are manufactured in Australia. http://branchlines.blogspot.com/2006/07/black-beetle-nickel-silver-wheels.html I can't seem to find any contact information on this link but these are the wheels I've used with all my locos.  I had used Ultrascale once, but they don't come in an all metal back so it is a pain to try and get the pick ups to make constant connectivity.  With the all metal backs it's easy.  You need the fully insulated ones which I believe are a special order.  The down side to them is the hub area I find is not manufactured as well as the Ultrascale ones and as a result are not as easy to get squared to the axel.  Ultrascale ones are better made and have a larger (deeper) hub and are so much easier to square.  If they came in an all metal back I would go for them all he time as a wobbly wheel )although functional) is annoying as hell!  

[chrvdv]

Hello John,

Thanks for the information. I will make enquiries   next week.

Christian

 

[Horsetan]

I'd been thinking about the "A" regauge to 21mm (P4 profile) for a while. IRM's wheel diameter comes out at 12.7mm (3'2") and I had thought there was no directly suitable wheel on the market.

It turns out that the answer was staring me in the face all the time, because Accurascale's P4 wheel pack for their recent Deltic/Class 55 is practically the same diameter, registering 12.66mm on the calipers. This is undersized for a Deltic (they actually ran on 3'7" wheels - 14.66mm) but Accurascale's compromise actually helps us here.

Although the Deltic wheel has two small holes at 180⁰ to each other and a slightly different dish to the front face, it's still eminently usable for this quick 'n dirty job.

Since both types of wheel are fully insulated only at the hub, that means there won't be much of a problem with pickup, since the collectors only need to extend to touch the backs of the new wheels.

Off with the "A" bogie sideframes:

...exposing the extended axle ends, and then unclip the baseplate:

Fish out the leading axle - on A39r, this is the one with nearside speedo drive, so that has a tiny end instead of a rotating cover.

Compare with the Deltic wheelset:

There's not a lot in it between the "A" and the Deltic:

To remove the wheels from their axles, all that's needed is to grip and gently twist each wheel anticlockwise, as if unscrewing a fine-pitch bolt. As long as the wheel is kept straight, no damage to the insulating bush should occur and you should not end up with wobbly wheels. DO NOT remove the brass bearings from the axle. 

This is what we end up with:

As the Haynes Book Of Lies says, "refitting is the reverse of removal" - the Deltic wheels are mounted on the "A" axles, again going carefully, twisting clockwise as you press the wheel along. A decent indication of when to stop is when you see just the merest glint of silver appear in front of the wheel hub.

We need to have an Irish back-to-back gauge handy, giving a back-to-back measurement of 19.67mm. These are available from the Scalefour Society Stores and are not terribly priced:

Incidentally, you could adjust to 19.87mm back-to-back if working in "dead scale", in the same way that I use 17.87mm for dead scale British standard gauge.

The measurement over the outside face of the Deltic rim should come out at around 23.9mm.

Now see the difference in gauge:

That should provide a suitable spur to finish the others:

Now is the time to bend the pickups outwards to match the wider gauge. They must be able to touch the backs of the new wheels:

Insert the regauged wheelsets, with the brass bearings clicking into their original places:

Clip the bogie baseplate back on,  push the outside frames back in, and the job is done:

Now repeat all the above for the other bogie:

This can be achieved in about 40 minutes, plus up to thirty quid for the Accurascale Deltic P4 pack (cheaper on eBay if you play your cards right).

End result just looks right:

[Horsetan]

Forgot to conclude: the above leaves you with twelve surplus "A" wheels, which make ideal practice pieces if you're learning how to use a lathe. Turn them to P4 profile so you have spares.

Also, six spare P4 axles with Deltic gears on them...

....and an invalidated IRM warranty. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Horsetan

[chrvdv]

Hello Horsetan,

Duly followed your example and I have succeeded. However I found removing the bogie outside frames with the speedo drive on them not that easy and I nearly lost one of the rotating ends.

Kindest regards,

Christian

 

[Noel]

Impressively precise conversion.