Irish models and availability

[Jb1911]

Hi all.

Over the past few months I’ve been researching the old Midland and Great Western railway and I have gathered a lot of information. I’ve decided to model a small mainline station on the railway and I’m wondering about the availability of models from the 1910-1925 odd time period. I’m relatively new to the modelling scene in Ireland and I’m wondering where I can buy models. I’ve never given kit building much thought as it’s never really worked for me in the past (that’s just my fault). I’m just looking for some information on who would sell midland engines and wagons or what British rolling stock and locomotives I could convert to represent their Irish counterparts. 
All replies welcome-

Jb1911 

[Galteemore]

Excellent stuff. What scale ? If it’s 2mm, @Angus can advise. 4mm, @Maynerand @2996 Victorwill know. @David Holmandoes 7mm, which would be much easier to scratch build in, and at least four MGW loco kits are available in 7mm, although some require a little work to backdate. Card kits are available for Midland coaches in 7mm from Alphagraphix - easily scaled down to 4mm if you go that route. I dare say that some careful work with some RTR models might produce passable results. But for real pleasure giving modelling I’d go down the scratch/kit route. Having rapidly learned the skillsets myself in recent years, it’s not as hard as it’s often made to look.

I don’t model MGW but just finished a 7mm MGW loco and coaches  this week for a good friend. It’s a fascinating railway with some real distinctive features.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, Jb1911 said:

Hi all.

Over the past few months I’ve been researching the old Midland and Great Western railway and I have gathered a lot of information. I’ve decided to model a small mainline station on the railway and I’m wondering about the availability of models from the 1910-1925 odd time period. I’m relatively new to the modelling scene in Ireland and I’m wondering where I can buy models. I’ve never given kit building much thought as it’s never really worked for me in the past (that’s just my fault). I’m just looking for some information on who would sell midland engines and wagons or what British rolling stock and locomotives I could convert to represent their Irish counterparts. 
All replies welcome-

Jb1911 

The midland had locomotives identical to the N class over in the UK (albeit VERY late in the midlands existence)

 

a j72 can mascarade  as a very long J26 (like the one in galteemore’s post above)

@jhb171achill could be another source for what stock is similar to the Midland that’s already out there

[David Holman]

Galteemore's latest model should provide all the inspiration you need, Jb and if not, check out my Belmullet thread where there are also models of MGWR locos in the early 1900s. After 1925 of course, it all goes a bit grey.

 However, in terms of readily available models, then little, if any is available rtr, in any scale. Modern image is increasingly well catered for, but not early stuff. As already suggested, kit and/or scratch building is the only way and the Alphagraphix catalogue is definitely worth a look, but all in 7mm scale. As well as the E class, there is a G2      2-4-0 and J18 0-6-0, along with a nice range of 6w coaches. Then there are the card kits, which form a good basis for scratch building.

 Worsley Works do a number of etches and these can be available in a number of scales. Note though that they are not kits in the accepted sense - there are no instructions and you need to find your own castings & fittings too, so think more an aid to scratch building.

 Kitbuilt stock does turn up on the second hand market from time to time, but note that, especially if you want to do proper broad gauge [and why not?] there are only a few of us in any of the scales. For example, I can only think of a handful of layouts in 2mm and 3mm scale, while Galteemore and I are pretty much flying the flag on our own in 7mm scale. 

 There again, if you like to be different and do your own thing, I can only say that it is great fun and the folk on this forum are endlessly helpful and encouraging. Come on in - the water's lovely!

[Jb1911]

I’m thinking more oo gauge as that’s what I have. It’s not entirely accurate with the scale and that sort of thing but I’m fine with that. Thanks for the suggestions 

[Hadren Railway]

There's a couple of threads on here that talk about using a J72 as a base for the E class, I can link some later if needs be.

The new Hornby pre-grouping and Hattons Genesis coaches (whenever the latter finally release, that is) would do for coaching stock if repainted into the appropriate livery. 

In theory, a Bachmann N class would also work to represent the almost completely identical K1 class, though these were only used on the Midland in  the very last year-ish of it's existence, which makes it's use on such a layout quite limited.

Now, I'm going to be shot for what I'm about to say, but a Fowler 2p or a Tri-ang L1 could maybe make for a very, very, very, rough representation of an A class 4-4-0 (the L1 would probably work very slightly better, since the rear splashers are less wrong and it has almost the right windows). 

 

This thread might also help, though it is in EM/21mm, which is close enough to OO: 

 

 

[Galteemore]

Sound advice here. You can also do much to ensure the success of a layout like this by paying attention to the incidentals. Get the architecture, signalling etc right and a few discrepancies in the rolling stock will be less obvious- applying basic principle of military camouflage! 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Hadren Railway said:

 

Now, I'm going to be shot for what I'm about to say, but a Fowler 2p or a Tri-ang L1 could maybe make for a very, very, very, rough representation of an A class 4-4-0 (the L1 would probably work very slightly better, since the rear splashers are less wrong and it has almost the right windows). 

Yes, far from a firing squad, given the lack of many other suitable items which can approximate as Irish with little (or nothing) more than a repaint, and subjected to the "two-foot rule", the L1 is actually one I had thought of years ago when I saw a second-hand one somewhere.

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

a j72 can masquerade as a very long J26 (like the one in galteemore’s post above)

@jhb171achill could be another source for what stock is similar to the Midland that’s already out there

Very much so, yes. And recently someone posted up a very nice conversion of a SR Adams Radial Tank" (4.4.2T), which can be persuaded to resemble both a BCDR tank loco and also a GSWR (WLWR) type. But they, of course, are not Midland!

The MGWR had very unique designs, which in many cases was very unlike any other company anywhere - either in Ireland or the big island. The BNCR and West Cork systems likewise. Thus, we are indeed limited. Even a half decent G2 would have to be scratchbuilt (or a JM Design kit).

Much of the MGWR was operated largely, if not entirely, by the standard 0.6.0s, the J18s. Like the GSWR's equivalent J15s, over time many variations appeared. Some sort of standard generic 0.6.0 (though not the LMS type often seen) would pass a three-foot rule given a dollop in a bucket of dark grey paint - there's a very nice Caledonian Railway 0.6.0 which might fit this bill.

The Killala, Clifden, Ballinrobe and Kingscourt lines rarely saw anything but J18s; as far as Clifden is concerned, seeminlg never, apart from a few years at the start. So 0.6.0s would be a "go-to" for anything Midland.

As far as carriages are concerned, unfortunately there is nothing on the market which even comes close to a five-foot rule approximation for the MGWR, as its carriage designs were so unique. Neither the Hornby nor Hattons "Genesis" 6-wheel coaches are even remotely suitable for an MGWR scene - however, they ARE very GSWR-esque. 

To this end, when i had initially planned the "Dugort Harbour" layout, it was initially either going to be a pretty exact representation of Westport Quay, or based on an Achill line that had managed to survive to the 1975 closures. At this point, even the JM Design MGWR 2.4.0 kit had not yet seen the light of day. So, I thought, get a couple of 141s for modern times, and a couple of Studio Scale Models J26 kits. But - carriages. That was the problem. There are KITS of GSWR types (SSM & Worsley), but nothing else. One or two Hornby standard types (that clerestorey-roofed thing that's two a penny on fleabay) could be made to look like a very passable GSWR vehicle of WLWR origin. That would do for a small branch.

Thus, I switched areas to an imaginary area in the south-west somewhere - and then along came the 00 Works J15 locos ready to run - so I've abandoned a Midland background now, and Dugort Harbour is now some random backwater down in the Republic of Pat Spillane and Healy-Rae somewhere.

[minister_for_hardship]

As Lima once did, a Fowler 4F could pass as a Cattle Engine.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, minister_for_hardship said:

As Lima once did, a Fowler 4F could pass as a Cattle Engine.

That's the one I meant above - couldn't just remember the class. The cab, though, is a dead giveaway as not Irish - no reason, of course, why a slight alteration to the cab couldn't be done to make it look more vaguely "Inchicorish". 

And it would be easy to dispense with Lima's clumsy representation of a "flying snail" the wrong shape, wrong way round, and wrong colour! 

[Hadren Railway]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, far from a firing squad, given the lack of many other suitable items which can approximate as Irish with little (or nothing) more than a repaint, and subjected to the "two-foot rule", the L1 is actually one I had thought of years ago when I saw a second-hand one somewhere.

Good to know I've dodged a bullet, so to speak.

[jhb171achill]

20 minutes ago, Hadren Railway said:

Good to know I've dodged a bullet, so to speak.

Now, I'm not sure where you'd get an L1 now - years and years and years ago Hornby did one - but we're talking crude 1970s stuff by today's standards. Interesting to know if there's a more modern model of that on the market.....

[Westcorkrailway]

Would love to see an N class in MGWR livery. I don’t recall seeing anyone try it before. All it would require is a good transfer provider and a good coat of paint. It fits in the 1910-25 period barely but it deffinettly would have been used on a “mainline” as specified . I’m sure second class N class locos aren’t too expensive either 

[leslie10646]

The first loco of the class was completed at Broadstone as MGWR No.49, photographed as such and immediately repainted in GSR colours becoming GSR No.410 but apparently altered to No.372 before going into service as a GSR loco.

I don't think she turned a revenue-earning wheel for the Midland.

But, "Your Railway" Rule applies.............

[StevieB]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Now, I'm not sure where you'd get an L1 now - years and years and years ago Hornby did one - but we're talking crude 1970s stuff by today's standards. Interesting to know if there's a more modern model of that on the market.....

There always seems to be plenty available on eBay. They may be an old design/model but an interesting fact is that they run through code 75 pointwork no trouble at all. 
 

Stephen

[2996 Victor]

Hi @Jb1911,

welcome to the forum - I'm sure you'll find everyone every bit as friendly, helpful and knowledgeable as I have. It's a great place full of great folk!

@Galteemore has been very kind, but I really do have to say that I'm certainly no expert on the MGWR: everything I know (and lots that I've already forgotten) is entirely thanks to the people on here. John @Mayner and Jonathan @jhb171achill are the experts who know all there is to know.

You might want to have a look through my layout build thread - link in my signature - as I've asked loads of newbie questions and got excellent answers to each and every one. There are also various books mentioned, but as a starting point, there are these:

• The Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland: An Illustrated History by Ernie Shepherd, Midland Publishing Ltd
• Irish Railways in Pictures No.2: The Midland Great Western Line by the Irish Railway Record Society London Area
• Rails to Achill by Jonathan Beaumont, Oakwood Press
• Rails through Connemara by Jonathan Beaumont, Oakwood Press
• Modelling Irish Railways by Stephen Johnson and Alan O'Rourke, Midland Publishing Ltd

There were also some articles by David Malone in the short-lived RailModel Digest magazine: issues #1, #2, #3 and #6 are worth seeking out.

New Irish Lines magazine published by Alan O'Rourke is also well-worth its subscription, link here

Hope this helps and by all means ask me any questions you like - I'll try to answer!

Good luck with your project,

Mark

Edited April 11, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

I meant to add that if you're going the OO route, it might be worthwhile considering the PECO bullhead track range as the rail height, sleeper size and spacing is so much better than their "normal" track, which is effectively HO track. These are the two types side-by-side:

Alternatively, you could use SMP OO flexi-track and Marcway points, probably a little more expensive than than the PECO but a little more realistic still.

Just a thought!

Cheers,

Mark

Edited April 11, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[Mayner]

Going back to Jb1911s original question there are no OO Scale ready to run models of MGWR locos or rolling stock.

The Bachmann N or Murphy Models CIE version both discontinued appear on the second hand market.

The Lima "Cattle Engine" is best avoided, part of Lima's first excursion into British Outline the loco was a HO/OO hybrid European HO viewed from the side OO head on as the loco and tender body were widened to clear the wheels and motor, best left as a collectors item not a running loco.

A number of people have converted the original Mainline J72 into both the S (Small) and P (Large) 0-6-0 tank locomotives, the new Bachmann re-tooled version https://www.bachmann.co.uk/product/category/152/lner-j72-tank-68733-br-black-(early-emblem)/31-061  is probably a better option than a second hand Mainline version as the chassis is likely to be past its use by date and require replacement.  MurrayEMC thread covers the conversion of an original Mainline J72 into a Midland Tank and problems with the original chassis. 

 

I produced brass kits of the MGWR K Class 2-4-0 in its post 1917 superheated form, the MGWR Meath and Fish Van and MGWR Horsebox which are really only suitable for experienced kit or scratch builders. I have no plans to re-release these kits, however the etched metals kits are available to special order.

Studio Scale models produce a kit for the E Class in its original condition and a highly detailed whitemetal kit of the MGWR Standard Convertible Wagon http://www.studio-scale-models.com/img/k14.jpg, another supplier Jeremy Suter produced a similar high quality kit of the MGWR Standard Loco Coal wagon about 20 years ago but appears to have discontinued his Irish kits.

If you want to get something running fairly quickly an option may be to focus on building the layout while using available ready to run locos and rolling stock while you develop skills and gain experience converting rtr models, kit or scratch building. Irish railway infrastructure and operating practices changed very little between the early 1900 and mid 1970s when freight handling was rationalised and CIE began upgrading track and signalling. 

Another option is to try something small in O Gauge Alphagraphix/Tyrconnell produce kits of 2-2-2T Fairy, the GSR version of the E Class, MGWR 6 Wheel coaches and card kits of the Horsebox and Convertible wagon.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Mayner

[2996 Victor]

48 minutes ago, Mayner said:

If you want to get something running fairly quickly an option may be to focus on building the layout while using available ready to run locos and rolling stock while you develop skills and gain experience converting rtr models, kit or scratch building. Irish railway infrastructure and operating practices changed very little between the early 1900 and mid 1970s when freight handling was rationalised and CIE began upgrading track and signalling. 

Another option is to try something small in O Gauge Alphagraphix/Tyrconnell produce kits of 2-2-2T Fairy, the GSR version of the E Class, MGWR 6 Wheel coaches and card kits of the Horsebox and Convertible wagon.

Very good advice, if I may say so! Just to add that the Alphagraphix CC-prefixed rolling stock card kits are available from Roger in 4mm/OO scale - just add 400 to the catalogue number so that kit number CC17, for instance, becomes CC417.

Cheers,
Mark

[Jb1911]

Thanks for the amount of support this quickly the amount of knowledge on this forum is invaluable. I have Ernie shepherds book on the midland and that’s been a great help. But I’ve been wondering about other railway stock and if it would have often been seen on the midland e.g GSWR coaches being interchanged with MGWR ones. Also aside from the obvious cattle trains what types of goods were carried on the MGWR. I’d assume coal and the other basics to run a railway, but I’m just wandering what would have been carried on open wagons and the like. 
Again thanks for the responses 

Jb1911 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Jb1911

[Galteemore]

Wagons from all over Ireland would have appeared on the MGW, coaches less so bar the odd special. Irish goods traffic tended to be more in vans than opens. Farm machinery etc would make a nice open wagon load. Here’s a typical breakdown of what would flow through a station in the west; Dromahair in this instance. It’s a 1940s-50s description but much of the traffic would have been the same for decades.

Egg export was a big trade on the railway in those years too, both from Manorhamilton and Dromahair.  Stuart J. Gilmore ‘s were egg shippers as was John Beirne of Drumkeeran. The latter shipped three wagons every week to Sinclairs of Glasgow.

In the pre-Christmas period turkeys travelled in large numbers. They were unloaded, plucked and re-packed in Belcoo. There was always a rush at that station for the wagon with the hen turkeys. Pluckers got 3d for plucking a hen and 4d for the harder job of plucking a cock.

Another item of interest leaving Dromahair station was eels. These were caught in early Summer on Lough Gill and surrounding lakes by Fermanagh fishermen. Every morning six large wooden cases of eels packed in ice and weighing a cwt. were sent to Billingsgate Market in England.

During the war years, 50 wagons of turf left the station every week for Fuel Importers Ltd.,Barrack Street, Drogheda. The turf was cut at Greaghnafarna, Tullynascreena, Corglancy and Raemore and brought to the station by S.L & N.C.R and C.I.E. lorries. Leitrim Co. Council workers were responsible for loading the turf into the wagons. The lorry drivers were Tom Corcoran and Paddy Conway for C.I.E. and Stephen Murphy, John Roche and Frank Lee for the S.L & N.C.R.

Inward Goods.

For many years grocery and hardware supplies for Dromahair, its hinterland and surrounding towns came by rail –sugar from Tuam, bread from Derry, flour from Pollexfens of Ballisodare, biscuits from Jacobs of Dublin, cigarettes from Carrols of Dundalk and the list goes on. One item in particular was of special interest to the children. On Friday evenings in Summer, Paddy Downey of the Post Office collected an insulated container of ice-creamfrom Kevinsfort Dairies in Sligo. Mrs. Downey sold it in the Post Office and many, then children and now in their twilight years, can still remember the joy of a twopenny ! The shopkeepers nearest to the station were Pat Mc Goldrick, John Ward, Marie Travers, James Latten and William Parkes.

Larger consignments arrived at the station too. Cement from Drogheda Came in 12 ton wagons for Gilmores and O Haras and for Frank Dolan of Drumkeeran . Sheets of tin in ½ tonconsignments came from Thomas Henshaw & Co. Dublin for Gilmores and Robinsons. Indian corn was railed from Dublin every month—12 wagons each carrying 12 tons. Whiskey, beer, cider and Guinness arrived for the local pubs

Edited April 11, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

29 minutes ago, Jb1911 said:

Thanks for the amount of support this quickly the amount of knowledge on this forum is invaluable. I have Ernie shepherds book on the midland and that’s been a great help. But I’ve been wondering about other railway stock and if it would have often been seen on the midland e.g GSWR coaches being interchanged with MGWR ones. Also aside from the obvious cattle trains what types of goods were carried on the MGWR. I’d assume coal and the other basics to run a railway, but I’m just wandering what would have been carried on open wagons and the like. 
Again thanks for the responses 

Jb1911 

Hi Jb and welcome to the forum from me too.

Interchangeability of rolling stock and locos..... in all cases yes, but - bear in mind that until 1925 there was virtually no mixing up except amongst wagons, and even then, not so much on some lines, but more so on others. You mentioned that you're looking at a 1910-25 period, so in terms of "foreign" stock you're a lot more limited then than AFTER 1925, when all these companies were part of the GSR and more "mixing" became the norm.

Prior to 1925, carriages and locos stayed with their own companies, obviously. Thus, for a MGWR-based layout, you'd absolutely need MGWR stock - which certainly in terms of carriages, means scratchbuilding as there nothing even remotely like MGWR stock on the market, nor has there been to my knowledge ever. And believe me, I've been looking! GSWR-similar; yes - therefore if I might make a suggestion it would be that you consider either a GSWR / WLWR branch, or a Midland one after 1925 in GSR days, when you could pretend that an old GSWR coach had appeared, as one did on the Loughrea line in the 1950s, and at least one six-wheeler appeared on the Achill line in the 1930s.

1.  Locomotives.

Locos tended to move about far less frequently than rolling stock, as crews had to be used to them etc. So random appearances of a "non-local" loco on any line was rare, and on some lines simply never happened; on others it might be a single or exceptionally rare one-off. But it did happen. In terms of companies, many former Midland engines made their way south after the amalgamation. The much-travelled "E" class (GSR / CIE J26) was resident on the Waterford & Tramore for some years, and was to be seen on the Fenit & Castleisland lines in Co Kerry, the latter briefly, as well as parts of the West Cork system. I've a notion that one shunted at Waterford at some stage. The "K" class "Woolwiches", ordered by the MGWR but placed in service by the GSR, were regulars on Cork - Dublin, Cork - Mallow - Waterford - Rosslare, and Waterford - Limerick, as well as home territory on Sligo & Galway services. DSER locos were somewhat less well-travelled, though there were examples, mostly in other parts of the south-east. After the break-up of the GNR in 1958, for a few years (until 1963) GNR locos could be seen occasionally on the DSER line, with regular appearances on Dun Laoghaire mail trains in the 1960-62 period. But in MGWR territory, there were few examples of any type of GSWR loco appearing, and certainly never regularly. In 1934 a GSWR 4.4.0 spent a short time on the Achill branch, and the late Billy Lohan told me that a GSWR J15 was present on the lifting train on the Killala branch! So for a Midland layout i think I'd stick with some sort of real or converted J26 if your layout is meant to be a branch line, or "Woolwich" types if it's a post-1925 main line. The Triang Southern Railway L1 already mentioned will do as a 2-ft rule thing for the time being. The MGWR was all 4.4.0s and 0.6.0s.

2.  Carriages.

Mixed up - absolutely! But only after 1925 in GSR days, not in the 1910-25 period. But again, there was a greater likelihood of MGWR stock being seen elsewhere, notably on Cork and Dublin (DSE) suburban lines, than of non-Midland stuff straying onto the Midland. In GSR / CIE days, to be honest MOST lines retained MOSTLY their pre-grouping passenger stock, but visitors did appear, and sometimes stay. There were several ancient GSWR coaches on the West Cork system in the 1950s to closure, as well as a few Midland 6-wheelers. With the GSWR having taken over the WLWR in 1901, well before the big amalgamation of 1925, the very few surviving WLWR coaches could end up anywhere on the GSWR system even then.

3.  Wagons.

In pre-1925 days, places where the GSR system interacted with another railway, and places within the GSR where two old companies had met (e.g. Athlone, Athenry, Claremorris, Waterford) were obviously places where wagons especially mixed up. The Portarlington - Athlone branch of the GSWR would see as many midland wagons as it would "native" GSWR ones. Dublin and Navan, and thus the Kingscourt, Oldcastle and Athboy branches, saw many CIE wagons on the GNR parts, more so after 1958, while Clonsilla - Kingscourt would have seen more GNR wagons than anywhere else. Collooney and Enniskillen were a great place for a mixture of GNR, SLNCR, GSWR (WLWR) and MGWR wagons - possibly the best place in the country for mixtures of wagons - but pre-1925, not locos and coaches. The SLNCR would BORROW coaches on busy days from either the MGWR / GSR / CIE in Sligo, or the GNR in Enniskillen, but not in everyday use.

To sum up this long-winded tome; if you're going to stick with pre-1925, and you definitely want a MGWR prototype, the J26 are the way to go, plus some sort of repainted 0.6.0 and 4.4.0 as already mentioned. (The "Woolwiches" don't come into being until 1925/6, and you're then into GSR times).

If you want to diversify, here are several scenarios: first, a GSWR branch; second, base it in the 1925-30 period, when you've the possibility of locos, coaches AND wagons from other lines appearing on your layout - but you've also the best possible mix of liveries, thus:

Locos

Ex-MGWR ones are either plain black, lined black, or a few still kicking about in the old, and by now dishevelled, green, which had been replaced by black a decade earlier. Some will be newly painted in the GSR's all-grey livery. Four liveries for one company alone in the 1925-30 period. Amongst these, ex-GSWR ones; these will all have been grey since about 1915, as will ex-WLWR ones.

Coaches

Ex MGWR very dark burgundy maroon, with a slight possibility of an old one still in the pre-1918 brown. Add in an ex-GSWR one in an even darker crimsony-brown colour, plus vehicles of either GSWR or MGWR origin in the new GSR livery, initially a dark maroon not unlike the GSWR shade. Want to make it after 1927 or so? Add in the GSR's short-lived "main line" coach livery of mid-brown & cream.

Wagons

1. Get sheep dip.  2. Add grey paint.  3. Drop wagons in.  4.Stir.  5. Let'em dry.  6. Weather the livin' daylights out of them. Old company markings, e.g. "G S W R", "D S E R" or "M G W R" were to be seen well into GSR days, just as wagons with "G  S" could be seen in CIE days for a good while. Wagons were not a priority for the paint brush man!

Stick about Collooney, and stay pre-1925, or even go back to 1903-5, and you have the most comprehensive display of liveries, as the likes of Galteemore and David Holman here will illustrate; you've all of the pre-grouping ones I mentioned above, plus the short lived MGWR loco blue, and carriages blue & white, the maroon locos and coaches of the WLWR, and guest appearances from the SLNCR, which had maroon coaches and (at THAT time) locos in green, sometimes black!

Phew. Off for a cuppa. Hope that's of some help.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

Wagons from all over Ireland would have appeared on the MGW, coaches less so bar the odd special. Irish goods traffic tended to be more in vans than opens. Farm machinery etc would make a nice open wagon load. Here’s a typical breakdown of what would flow through a station in the west; Dromahair in this instance. It’s a 1940s-50s description but much of the traffic would have been the same for decades.

Egg export was a big trade on the railway in those years too, both from Manorhamilton and Dromahair.  Stuart J. Gilmore ‘s were egg shippers as was John Beirne of Drumkeeran. The latter shipped three wagons every week to Sinclairs of Glasgow.

In the pre-Christmas period turkeys travelled in large numbers. They were unloaded, plucked and re-packed in Belcoo. There was always a rush at that station for the wagon with the hen turkeys. Pluckers got 3d for plucking a hen and 4d for the harder job of plucking a cock.

Another item of interest leaving Dromahair station was eels. These were caught in early Summer on Lough Gill and surrounding lakes by Fermanagh fishermen. Every morning six large wooden cases of eels packed in ice and weighing a cwt. were sent to Billingsgate Market in England.

During the war years, 50 wagons of turf left the station every week for Fuel Importers Ltd.,Barrack Street, Drogheda. The turf was cut at Greaghnafarna, Tullynascreena, Corglancy and Raemore and brought to the station by S.L & N.C.R and C.I.E. lorries. Leitrim Co. Council workers were responsible for loading the turf into the wagons. The lorry drivers were Tom Corcoran and Paddy Conway for C.I.E. and Stephen Murphy, John Roche and Frank Lee for the S.L & N.C.R.

Inward Goods.

For many years grocery and hardware supplies for Dromahair, its hinterland and surrounding towns came by rail –sugar from Tuam, bread from Derry, flour from Pollexfens of Ballisodare, biscuits from Jacobs of Dublin, cigarettes from Carrols of Dundalk and the list goes on. One item in particular was of special interest to the children. On Friday evenings in Summer, Paddy Downey of the Post Office collected an insulated container of ice-creamfrom Kevinsfort Dairies in Sligo. Mrs. Downey sold it in the Post Office and many, then children and now in their twilight years, can still remember the joy of a twopenny ! The shopkeepers nearest to the station were Pat Mc Goldrick, John Ward, Marie Travers, James Latten and William Parkes.

Larger consignments arrived at the station too. Cement from Drogheda Came in 12 ton wagons for Gilmores and O Haras and for Frank Dolan of Drumkeeran . Sheets of tin in ½ tonconsignments came from Thomas Henshaw & Co. Dublin for Gilmores and Robinsons. Indian corn was railed from Dublin every month—12 wagons each carrying 12 tons. Whiskey, beer, cider and Guinness arrived for the local pubs

Excellent info, Galteemore - you'd think you knew the area!        

[Mayner]

The late Padraig Ó'Cuimín a recognised authority on the Midland wrote about the traffic and rolling stock on the Loughrea and Ballinrobe Lines during the pre-amalgamation era  in his book The Baronial Lines of the MGWR Transport Research Associates 1972. 

Traffic on both lines was broadly similar, in pre-amalgamation days cattle and timber were the most important sources of outward traffic (6 Fair Specials Loughrea & 4 Ballinrobe lines in 1923 WTT), Loughtrea had cattle fairs in February (largest) March and May, sheep August. Pig traffic was most important after cattle from Ballinrobe, building stone was also shipped from Ballinrobe. Horsebox specials also ran in connection with the Ballinrobe Fair and Racemeetings.

Inward traffic included domestic and locomotive coal, flour, bran, Guinness, bran, corn and sundries, domestic coal traffic.

The Convertible or MGWR "Standard Covered Goods Wagon" was the standard wagon for livestock and general goods traffic up to the Amalgamation, the next most common were Swivel Timber Trucks (short trucks with single bolsters) usually used in pairs or threes to carry round or unsawn timber. Ó'Cuimín writes of a Martin Flood who used to work cutting timber for dispatch from Dunsandle, ending up unloading the same Dunsandle timber in Liverpool.

The "Open Box" wagon used for domestic and loco coal was the third most common form of wagon.

The MGWR had a small number of hard topped and open cattle wagons, but the short 14' "Convertible" was the predominant type up to the Amalgamation. 

The MGWR began building longer 17'6" covered and open wagons to an Irish Railway Clearing House design during and and after WW1,  150 or half of the IRCH Standard Covered Wagons ware built as "convertibles" to carry livestock or general goods traffic.

Wagon Livery is described as:

Standard colour for wagons: Dark Slate Grey

Loco & Traffic coal trucks:  Black

P.W.D Wagons: Sand Beige (Yellow Clay)

Passenger Train wagons: Brown

Brake Vans: Generally Brown, 1874 Type Mid Green (1922-24)

In summary (pre-Amalgamation) MGWR goods trains were mainly made up of the Companies 14' "Standard Convertible Wagon", Single Bolster Flats funning in pairs or trios, Open Box Wagons

 

[David Holman]

You've struck a rich vein here, Jb! Wonderful stuff from Mayner, JHB and Galteemore. Knowledge like this is pure gold dust.

 The Collooney to Sligo line must have been interesting in the early 1900s, with the MGW, WL&W, GS&W and the SLNCR all present. Modeller's Licence is always a good excuse and my early 1900s stock stretches things by assuming the GSW didn't take over the WLW until about 1905, while if the line to Belmullet was built as a joint venture, that also gives me more options, albeit tenuous. 

 For example, my GSW F6 2-4-2T has come North from the Valencia line because the Belmullet route is very similar, so is being tried out there. It would have been a major journey for a Sligo tank from Enniskillen to Belmullet, but Sligo to there would just about have been in range. Based on the Achill line, Wolf Dog and E class would have been at home for the Midland, while my beloved WLW Shannon (built by Richard Chown 50 years ago) would have got to Belmullet because of the Canadian Pacific mail traffic.

 Unfortunately, none of this solves your stock problem, but Galteemore's idea of concentrating on Midland infrastructure has a lot going for it. The argument that you should be able to identify a railway without seeing any of its trains is a good one, with most having signature items like buildings, signals and so on. Ernie Shepherd's history vital here. Get that right and using the two foot rule, generic stock will blend in well enough. Plus of course, none of us woke up one morning suddenly able to kit or scratchbuild and though it takes time to learn, it is certainly VERY rewarding and folk on this forum are endlessly encouraging.

[StevieB]

Sligo would have been even more interesting had the GNR(I) extended its Bundoran branch to Sligo as originally intended in the Act of Parliament. However, that would, in all probability, have rendered the subsequent SLNCR line to Sligo unnecessary. One can but dream of the endless possibilities.

Stephen

[Galteemore]

37 minutes ago, StevieB said:

Sligo would have been even more interesting had the GNR(I) extended its Bundoran branch to Sligo as originally intended in the Act of Parliament. However, that would, in all probability, have rendered the subsequent SLNCR line to Sligo unnecessary. One can but dream of the endless possibilities.

Stephen

To be fair, given my proclivities, that scenario is more of a nightmare than a dream. A world without the SLNC would have been very much duller….

Edited April 12, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, Mayner said:

The late Padraig Ó'Cuimín a recognised authority on the Midland wrote about the traffic and rolling stock on the Loughrea and Ballinrobe Lines during the pre-amalgamation era  in his book The Baronial Lines of the MGWR Transport Research Associates 1972. 

Traffic on both lines was broadly similar, in pre-amalgamation days cattle and timber were the most important sources of outward traffic (6 Fair Specials Loughrea & 4 Ballinrobe lines in 1923 WTT), Loughtrea had cattle fairs in February (largest) March and May, sheep August. Pig traffic was most important after cattle from Ballinrobe, building stone was also shipped from Ballinrobe. Horsebox specials also ran in connection with the Ballinrobe Fair and Racemeetings.

Inward traffic included domestic and locomotive coal, flour, bran, Guinness, bran, corn and sundries, domestic coal traffic.

The Convertible or MGWR "Standard Covered Goods Wagon" was the standard wagon for livestock and general goods traffic up to the Amalgamation, the next most common were Swivel Timber Trucks (short trucks with single bolsters) usually used in pairs or threes to carry round or unsawn timber. Ó'Cuimín writes of a Martin Flood who used to work cutting timber for dispatch from Dunsandle, ending up unloading the same Dunsandle timber in Liverpool.

The "Open Box" wagon used for domestic and loco coal was the third most common form of wagon.

The MGWR had a small number of hard topped and open cattle wagons, but the short 14' "Convertible" was the predominant type up to the Amalgamation. 

The MGWR began building longer 17'6" covered and open wagons to an Irish Railway Clearing House design during and and after WW1,  150 or half of the IRCH Standard Covered Wagons ware built as "convertibles" to carry livestock or general goods traffic.

Wagon Livery is described as:

Standard colour for wagons: Dark Slate Grey

Loco & Traffic coal trucks:  Black

P.W.D Wagons: Sand Beige (Yellow Clay)

Passenger Train wagons: Brown

Brake Vans: Generally Brown, 1874 Type Mid Green (1922-24)

In summary (pre-Amalgamation) MGWR goods trains were mainly made up of the Companies 14' "Standard Convertible Wagon", Single Bolster Flats funning in pairs or trios, Open Box Wagons

 

Some good points there, which reminds me, as John suggests: for a 1900-10 period layout, "modern" 4 wheeled goods vehicles are inappropriate, as much so as an ICR on the SLNCR.  Some of the earlier wagons made as kits by Studio Scale Models, the old GSWR goods brake van by Provincial Models, and the excellent range of DWWR wagons made by KMCE are the only show in town. Some mainstream manufacturers make open 4-wheeled wagons which, while technically a bit too modern, are OK as viewed under the "2-ft Rule". Provincial Wagons' SLNCR / GNR cattle truck kit is again technically too late for such a time by a whisker, but would fit in more than adequately.

As John suggests, the "soft-top" or convertible van was by far the most common wagon on most (not all) lines. There were some dedicated cattle trucks which were open-topped too, short wheelbase of course.

Padraig's research on all things MGWR is indeed comprehensive; in connection with my current research project I am going through his notes in detail, which he derived almost in their entirety from the boardroom records of management meetings of the MGWR; they correspond with my own notes from the same source, as noted some twenty-five years ago. Indeed, on my last visit to Padraig before his untimely passing, he kindly gave me a box of index cards of volumes and page numbers of all this stuff, which saved me much time in research.

However, his own notes had some slight differences from those of the late Bob Clements - despite Bob's well-deserved reputation of probably the greatest historian and railway enthusiast of the 20th century, and his unrivalled knowledge of locomotives on all railways, the two of them both can't be right! However, such differences are very minor - one that springs to mind is that of goods brake vans, and nomenclature. O'Cuimin describes (as John quotes above) "brake vans" - but without specifying whether this is intended to imply ALL brake vans or only goods ones; if the former, passenger brake vans were indeed brown, but goods ones were elsewhere deemed to be grey, same as wagons. The 1874 type were green indeed, but also cattle drover's vans were. There is a model of one in the Fry collection, and it is a dark green. With Fry having started his working career in Broadstone, I am inclined to believe that his is the right colour, but such vehicles would not exactly get a repaint every couple of years like passenger stock would, so O'Cuimin's description of a "light" green could well be the darker shade badly faded. jhbSenior took a picture of one still in Midland markings in the 1930s (pic in "Rails Through Connemara"), and he said that while he could not be sure, as far as he recalled it was faded grey.

O'Cuimin mentions "Passenger Train Wagons"; this would apply to horse boxes and flat carriage trucks, nothing else.

Over a century has passed, and there are rules 1 & 2; ("It's MY layout and I can run what I want", and the "2-ft rule" - if it looks OK 2ft away, it'll do"). So minor alterations may not bother 99% of us - but the above is for anyone interested in strict accuracy.

In 2089, there will no doubt be a layout with a 141 class in maroon and black........... or a brown A class with "014" in bright blue on the ends.......and I'll be pushin' the daisies and weeds up in Mount Jerome.

Edited April 12, 2022 by jhb171achill

[Jb1911]

Thanks everyone for help and advice. I don’t have as much time as I would like I’m currently I’m quite occupied with exams and I mainly only can do small bits of modelling at a time. I’ve been thinking of modelling one of the smaller stations on the mgwr and I think I might have a look at maybe Moate or Castletown with both being on the Mullingar to Athlone line. I think this would give abit of leverage to me to work with. The J26s hardly worked the line? I think I seen someone say they didn’t but they are branchline engines so I wasn’t sure. I suppose mullingar to Athlone wasn’t really a branchline and I’ve no doubt with the wealth of knowledge on this forum that someone will confirm if they did or didn’t. I’ve tried to find pictures or diagrams of the single bolster timber wagons to no avail. I was wondering if anyone had pictures or diagrams of them. 

A real driving force for me to model the MGWR was some of its locomotives. In particular the classes Bs and Ls. I like 0-6-0s and in general the Irish classes were different to what you could find across the pond in England. I have a wealth of drawings of most engines however I haven’t been able to get my hands on any real working drawings of the B class. I understand a lot of records have been lost but was wondering if anyone has anything like that it would be greatly appreciate. 
 A man can only dream of a simple solution to the lack of 6 wheel carriages that’s similar to the midland versions. 
Anyways I’m calling it quits for the night now. Any reply’s are greatly appreciated as always

JB 

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Jb1911 said:

Thanks everyone for help and advice. I don’t have as much time as I would like I’m currently I’m quite occupied with exams and I mainly only can do small bits of modelling at a time. I’ve been thinking of modelling one of the smaller stations on the mgwr and I think I might have a look at maybe Moate or Castletown with both being on the Mullingar to Athlone line. I think this would give abit of leverage to me to work with. The J26s hardly worked the line? I think I seen someone say they didn’t but they are branchline engines so I wasn’t sure. I suppose mullingar to Athlone wasn’t really a branchline and I’ve no doubt with the wealth of knowledge on this forum that someone will confirm if they did or didn’t. I’ve tried to find pictures or diagrams of the single bolster timber wagons to no avail. I was wondering if anyone had pictures or diagrams of them. 

A real driving force for me to model the MGWR was some of its locomotives. In particular the classes Bs and Ls. I like 0-6-0s and in general the Irish classes were different to what you could find across the pond in England. I have a wealth of drawings of most engines however I haven’t been able to get my hands on any real working drawings of the B class. I understand a lot of records have been lost but was wondering if anyone has anything like that it would be greatly appreciate. 
 A man can only dream of a simple solution to the lack of 6 wheel carriages that’s similar to the midland versions. 
Anyways I’m calling it quits for the night now. Any reply’s are greatly appreciated as always

JB 

I'm almost certain there is a photo somewhere of the yard at Mullingar with a J26 in the background..

[jhb171achill]

43 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

I'm almost certain there is a photo somewhere of the yard at Mullingar with a J26 in the background..

Very likely is. They very likely worked the Streamstown - Clara line in Midland days and would equally likely have shunted at Mullingar and/or Athlone.

2 hours ago, Jb1911 said:

………I suppose mullingar to Athlone wasn’t really a branchline and I’ve no doubt with the wealth of knowledge on this forum that someone will confirm if they did or didn’t. 
 

Probably not - but - Streamstown was on that line too, and the branch that diverged there for Clara could well have had them, more than likely! So a model of that station would be good, with the added interest of a branch junction!

[Galteemore]

This looks very much like a J26 on the main line, with a fairly hefty train behind….

Edited April 14, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

54 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

This looks very much like a J26 on the main line, with a fairly hefty train behind….

It does indeed, and it IS a main line train, though the jury is out as to exactly where. No branch would be likely to have a train that length (other than an emigration special, at a stretch), or a bridge wide enough for doubling of track.

[Jb1911]

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

This looks very much like a J26 on the main line, with a fairly hefty train behind….

Perfect this gives me an excuse

[Jb1911]

Right signals. I’ve found almost no published information on signalling. I know most signal boxes were damaged or destroyed during the civil war and were replaced with the stone/brick base signal boxes. And that most signals were done by McKenzie and Holland. Other then that I haven’t much 

So the usual then I’m wondering if anyone does? Midland signals around 1915-1925 on the main line. Moate station seems like a good one with all its buildings still fully intact. Apart from some parts of the station but it’s 90% there really. It’s centred between Athlone and Mullingar and near streamstown and Castletown. Goods traffic coming through from the Streamstown - Clara line is another thing I can add with moate. Big market town and a lot of information published from when the surveys were done while the cycle track was being done. 
Now a lot of that will be the likes of traffic from the 1960s which won’t be ideal however the traffic can’t have changed much.