GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery

[jhb171achill]

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 

In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 

In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

 

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc.

 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

 

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

 

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 

5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

 

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 

7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

 

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 

9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 

10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 

I hope this is of interest.

[jhb171achill]

MODS - can you delete this post. I made a mess of it.

Edited December 5, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Broithe]

21 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

MODS - can you delete this post. I made a mess of it.

I quite like it.

In the style of Mondrian..?

[jhb171achill]

Just now, Broithe said:

I quite like it.

In the style of Mondrian..?

It's an early MGWR Rubik's cube..........

[Broithe]

Of course, I should have realised that you would have your finger on the pulse of the nation's cultural zeitgeist.

I have suggested to the National Gallery that they include a print of your artwork above in their current exhibition :-

https://www.nationalgallery.ie/art-and-artists/exhibitions/mondrian

Obviously, I have asked them to check with you first - in case the image above is not the right way up.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Broithe
I missed 'finger' out - in the excitement...

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

Of course, I should have realised that you would have your on the pulse of the nation's cultural zeitgeist.

I have suggested to the National Gallery that they include a print of your artwork above in their current exhibition :-

https://www.nationalgallery.ie/art-and-artists/exhibitions/mondrian

Obviously, I have asked them to check with you first - in case the image above is not the right way up.

My next project is "Saving the World from Trumpist rhetoric, Saving the Planet and Reopening the line to Tuam", portrayed via interpretative dance.........

[Broithe]

13 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

My next project is "Saving the World from Trumpist rhetoric, Saving the Planet and Reopening the line to Tuam", portrayed via interpretative dance.........

Mmm, this course might cover some useful aspects for you.

 

https://www.educationindex.co.uk/course-search/university-of-northampton/first-degree/ba-hons/dance-and-wastes-management/

[Tobin]

On 8/12/2012 at 2:29 PM, jhb171achill said:

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 

In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 

In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

 

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc.

 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

 

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

 

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 

5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

 

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 

7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

 

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 

9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 

10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 

I hope this is of interest.

Any luck in finding a list of the engines painted in black during the '50s/'60s?

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, Tobin said:

Any luck in finding a list of the engines painted in black during the '50s/'60s?

Tobin, I had a reasonable list many years ago. I was on the phone to the late Bob Clements and I asked him many questions, amongst which were a good few about liveries.

I hastily scribbled down things like a number of what Bob said was the only loco of some class to be black, or he might say about another class “oh, there a good few of that class...” (or none.)

Thus, the list was a good guide rather than a precise list, number by number.

I have since mislaid the list, but not before identifying several small errors, for example, he insisted that no narrow gauge engines were ever black, but it seems that 6T was in its last years on the C & L, and one of the Passage tanks was at the very least an almost-black shade of grey from about 1956/7.

What I’ve posted over the years is based partly on my recollections of what I was told by him, plus what I remember writing on that list, plus what two other individuals told me, who in their adolescent years had free reign to wander round Inchicore and Broadstone.

My list, though, I appear to have mislaid, and two extremely thorough searches of my “stuff” in the last few years (one a few months ago) have regrettably failed to produce it.

Was there anything in particular you had in mind?

[Tobin]

On 27/12/2020 at 12:08 AM, jhb171achill said:

Tobin, I had a reasonable list many years ago. I was on the phone to the late Bob Clements and I asked him many questions, amongst which were a good few about liveries.

I hastily scribbled down things like a number of what Bob said was the only loco of some class to be black, or he might say about another class “oh, there a good few of that class...” (or none.)

Thus, the list was a good guide rather than a precise list, number by number.

I have since mislaid the list, but not before identifying several small errors, for example, he insisted that no narrow gauge engines were ever black, but it seems that 6T was in its last years on the C & L, and one of the Passage tanks was at the very least an almost-black shade of grey from about 1956/7.

What I’ve posted over the years is based partly on my recollections of what I was told by him, plus what I remember writing on that list, plus what two other individuals told me, who in their adolescent years had free reign to wander round Inchicore and Broadstone.

My list, though, I appear to have mislaid, and two extremely thorough searches of my “stuff” in the last few years (one a few months ago) have regrettably failed to produce it.

Was there anything in particular you had in mind?

Sorry for such a late response. I've a strong interest in the DSER so any DSER engines or engines that ran on the DSE line would be a great help.

I too have compiled a list from examining photos of DSER engines and made note of which engines retained cast numbers, received painted numbers and the green livery etc but trying to determine which engines were painted black is difficult with black and white photos.

From what I know, the only DSER engine to be painted black was 461 being in a colour photograph in '61 but a b/w photo shows that she might've been in black since '48 but it could also just be the glossiness of a fresh repaint of grey, same goes for 460 in '54 and 462 in '59. 

As for snails, 462 definitely had a snail in '54 and at some point swapped tenders with 461 between '56 and '60. 448, 444 and 445 never had snails. 443, 446 and 454, no idea.

[WRENNEIRE]

Any idea where this came from?

 

[Sean Hogan]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Any idea where this came from?

 

Hammond lane

[WRENNEIRE]

Pick a window Hogan.........

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Any idea where this came from?

 

Wagon plate, still bearing GSR paint.

Unfortunately, full  records of the DSER wagon stock have not survived, so it may not be possibly to discern what sort of wagon it came off.

Don't repaint it - things like this hold their value a GREAT deal better if they have original paint on them.

The only other possibility might be a bridge plate but I doubt that.

6 hours ago, Tobin said:

I too have compiled a list from examining photos of DSER engines and made note of which engines retained cast numbers, received painted numbers and the green livery etc but trying to determine which engines were painted black is difficult with black and white photos.

From what I know, the only DSER engine to be painted black was 461 being in a colour photograph in '61 but a b/w photo shows that she might've been in black since '48 but it could also just be the glossiness of a fresh repaint of grey, same goes for 460 in '54 and 462 in '59. 

As for snails, 462 definitely had a snail in '54 and at some point swapped tenders with 461 between '56 and '60. 448, 444 and 445 never had snails. 443, 446 and 454, no idea.

Just curiosity - in your researches, did you come across any DSER locos which were painted green after 1946? Black livery didn't appear until the mid-50s, so anything in 1948 would indeed have been grey.

Edited January 20, 2021 by jhb171achill

[KMCE]

10 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Any idea where this came from?

If it is a wagon plate it is most likely from a 12 Ton Open wagon, built in 1904 by Grand Canal St. Works.

Ken

[Tobin]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Wagon plate, still bearing GSR paint.

Unfortunately, full  records of the DSER wagon stock have not survived, so it may not be possibly to discern what sort of wagon it came off.

Don't repaint it - things like this hold their value a GREAT deal better if they have original paint on them.

The only other possibility might be a bridge plate but I doubt that.

Just curiosity - in your researches, did you come across any DSER locos which were painted green after 1946? Black livery didn't appear until the mid-50s, so anything in 1948 would indeed have been grey.

Clements and McMahon listed engines that were painted green in their book Locomotives of the GSR. The DSER engines they listed were 458, 459, 433, 439, 436, 455, 456, 457. From looking at photos I can confirm that these engines were painted green as you can see the lining, with the exception of 459, 439 and 457 as they were too difficult to tell due to the quality of the photos. 

460 was the only DSER 4-4-2T to not get a green coat but a photo from the IRRS flikr shows a photo of 460 in possibly black, dated 1954. Although it could just be a shiny coat of grey paint, its difficult to tell if black or grey in b/w photos.

[minister_for_hardship]

10 hours ago, KMCE said:

If it is a wagon plate it is most likely from a 12 Ton Open wagon, built in 1904 by Grand Canal St. Works.

Ken

Wagon plate. Almost always oval or shaped like a letter D, straight side up.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Tobin said:

Clements and McMahon listed engines that were painted green in their book Locomotives of the GSR. The DSER engines they listed were 458, 459, 433, 439, 436, 455, 456, 457. From looking at photos I can confirm that these engines were painted green as you can see the lining, with the exception of 459, 439 and 457 as they were too difficult to tell due to the quality of the photos. 

460 was the only DSER 4-4-2T to not get a green coat but a photo from the IRRS flikr shows a photo of 460 in possibly black, dated 1954. Although it could just be a shiny coat of grey paint, its difficult to tell if black or grey in b/w photos.

I must be going senile - I had forgotten about the suburban tanks!
 

Yes, 1954 would indeed be grey. They got shiny, and darker looking in photographs, sometimes as a result of “cleaning” (in reality, re-arranging the dirt) with filthy oily rags...

The first clear instances of black are around 1956/7. Most stayed increasingly filthy grey until the end.

[Tobin]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

I must be going senile - I had forgotten about the suburban tanks!
 

Yes, 1954 would indeed be grey. They got shiny, and darker looking in photographs, sometimes as a result of “cleaning” (in reality, re-arranging the dirt) with filthy oily rags...

The first clear instances of black are around 1956/7. Most stayed increasingly filthy grey until the end.

Thank you, I wouldn't have known that.

Would you know of any photo examples of black engines in b/w photos? just so I know what black paint looks like in b/w photos so I can recognise black engines in future.

[Galteemore]

It’s incredibly difficult to notice in b/w and sometimes colour unless the loco is sparkly clean. These are identical black engines : but clean and dirty they look very different.....my thanks to Ernie and RCTS....

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

David any more details on the colour photo of Lough Erne beside a blue engine?

[Galteemore]

Somewhere in Ernie’s archive, Jim. Early days of UTA ownership as it’s still in SLNC colours (nameplates are giveaway). Looks like Adelaide and I think that’s VS ‘Erne’ beside it.

[jhb171achill]

On 21/1/2021 at 1:07 PM, Tobin said:

Thank you, I wouldn't have known that.

Would you know of any photo examples of black engines in b/w photos? just so I know what black paint looks like in b/w photos so I can recognise black engines in future.

It’s not always easy, Tobin. Prior to mid-50s, all grey. 1956-ish to 1963, most were covered in layers of filth, coal dust and rust to the extent you could barely tell in real life, never mind a photo, never mind a black and white photo!

Those repainted black soon acquired the same layer of dirt. In these times CIE had dispensed with many cleaners, as the steam railway was not seen by young lads as a viable career choice.

I had a list (from Bob Clements) some years ago of what classes had at least some black members, but I’ve been unable to locate it. From memory, but not complete, some notable classes which included at least one black example were J18, C2, G2, 400 and “Woolwich”, though most of the latter two were green by the end. 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by jhb171achill

[airfixfan]

19 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Somewhere in Ernie’s archive, Jim. Early days of UTA ownership as it’s still in SLNC colours (nameplates are giveaway). Looks like Adelaide and I think that’s VS ‘Erne’ beside it.

Agree Adelaide and have a photo from 1932cof Class 5 Letterkenny looking great in Black livery below.

[Galteemore]

Looks great Jim. I took the liberty of turning it over...

[Irishswissernie]

THis one Jim

 

 

[airfixfan]

Thanks must be early 1960s?

[Irishswissernie]

I deciphered the date for this one from Dewing records -  28 June 1961

[airfixfan]

Good guess then! Have picked up a few nice photos of 27 at York Road in 1965 recently.

6 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Looks great Jim. I took the liberty of turning it over...

Thanks whatever I do they seem to go on a tilt! Nice view of the rear of a Class 5 loco and this was the first to go in 1940. Looks well in black!

Edited January 21, 2021 by airfixfan

[Tobin]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

It’s not always easy, Tobin. Prior to mid-50s, all grey. 1956-ish to 1963, most were covered in layers of filth, coal dust and rust to the extent you could barely tell in real life, never mind a photo, never mind a black and white photo!

Those repainted black room acquired the same layer of dirt. In these times CIE had dispensed with many cleaners, as the steam railway was not seen by young lads as a viable career choice.

I had a list (from Bob Clements) some years ago of what classes had at least some black members, but I’ve been unable to locate it. From memory, but not complete, some notable classes which included at least one black example were J18, C2, G2, 400 and “Woolwich”, though most of the latter two were green by the end. 

 

From my reserch, all three members of the C2 Class received a green livery, which as far as I can make out, they retained

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Tobin said:

From my reserch, all three members of the C2 Class received a green livery, which as far as I can make out, they retained

Interesting - must check that out!

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

On 5/12/2020 at 11:41 PM, jhb171achill said:

LOCOS

51

52

53

54

55

56

57

58

59

60

61

62

63

64

65

66

67

68

69

70

71

72

73

74

75

76

77

78

79

80

Steam

Mostly very dark grey / some black AFTER 1955, some lined green

B113

Dark & lined loco / bus green

D

A

Later “Mid” Green

C

“Black and Tan” or all-black derivatives

“Supertrain” – Orange all over with black midway band

B101

G601

E401

K801

GNR Dark Blue

G611

E421

B121

Pale Grey & Yellow (Flying Snail logo)     Some

Black & tan from 1965

B141

B181

071

COACHES

6 wheel pass’ger carrying

6 wheel full brake

Dark & lined loco / bus green

Later “mid” green

Wooden bogies

Bredin & early CIE

P Royal

Unpainted inc. chassis, roof, bogies, ends & roof

Laminate

“Black and tan”

“Tin Vans”

Cravens

AEC Railcars

WAGONS

All types

Dark Wagon Grey. “Flying Snails” & numerals light green until c.1953, then white.

Light wagon grey

Dark Brown, getting slightly more reddish in the 2000s.

Bullied Open

Unpainted bodies until they were “doubled up” for beet in the 1990s.             In the 1980s a very small number had brown chassis instead of grey, but unpainted “silver!” bodies.

Brake Vans

Cement “bubbles”

Dark wagon grey

Orange “bubble” with GREY chassis

Some time ago I tried to post a table of what liveries ran with what, due to the growing interest in the 1950-70 period, and the release of the Murphy 121s, as well as the equally eagerly awaited IRM "A"s.

For some reason related to my crass ignorance of computers, I could not post it, so I did a simplified version.

If anyone wants the full thing, please ping me on this by private message and let me know your email address and I will forward the whole story, and nothing but the story, as my learned friend might say..........

Hi Jonathan, message on the way.

[airfixfan]

Bought a colour photo of a Bandon tank in black in Laxey of all places on Friday!

[commerlad]

Let me guess "The Tram Stop" on the run of units by Laxey Tram Station

[airfixfan]

Correct a nice wee shop

[airfixfan]

CIE Bandon tankn in black at Cork