Flying Snail Logo on Brown Goods Vans?

[Auto-Train Original]

I have seen the CIE Roundel on both brown and grey painted goods vans. But was there ever brown painted goods vans with the Flying Snail logo on it? Thanks in advance.

[jhb171achill]

No…… nothing brown ever had the snail, other than a couple of (untypical) breakdown vans which were painted brown for the PW Dept.; one featured in many lifting trains in the late fifties.

The “flying snail” was replaced by the “broken wheel” in 1963, but all forms of routine goods wagons - be they goods vans, guards vans, cattle or open wagons - remained grey until 1970, with many never becoming brown.

A 1960s scene will have nothing but grey wagons; some will still have snails, but any repainted 1963-70 will have CIE roundels.

 

[MAL]

May I ask if the gray flying snail class 121 would ever have some brown wagons with broken wheel in tow?

[Flying Snail]

I don't think so MAL, I believe the grey 121's were repainted within a few years (i.e. by the mid 60s)

I have some of them myself and I run them with covered and open wagons and a brake van from https://jmdesignmodelrailways.com/en-ie. The owner is @Mayner on this forum and he is currently working through options for a new 3D print supplier, so he should have new stock in the not too distant future.

I've also ordered the light green coaches in the Hatton's Genesis range here. The light green ones are contemporary with the grey 121's, but some of the dark green coaches (the older livery) would also have still been around. To complete a passenger train a heating van (tin van) would be required. Silverfox do them in RTR and  Mayner and others have done kits of them before too

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, MAL said:

May I ask if the gray flying snail class 121 would ever have some brown wagons with broken wheel in tow?

No. The grey and yellow livery was gone from most of these locos by about 1965/66, though two of them seem to have retained it until about 1968. That's still two years too early for any brown wagons of any sort. However, the broken wheel appeared about eighteen months after the 121s started work, but on GREY wagons rather than brown.

The broad guide is this:

Up to 1963:  All wagons grey, all with flying snails (by this stage, almost all stencilled on but a few older ones still painted on).

1963-1970:  All wagons still grey, including earliest cement bubbles. Some still with flying snails, but increasingly with broken wheels. On "H" vans and "Palvans", the broken wheel had white letters and a tan surround, but on all other stock it was all-white.

1970-1987:  Wagons painted brown, though many grey ones, including the ODD one still with a snail*, lingered on to the extent that when loose-coupled freight disappeared about 1976, a good 20% or so of the wagon fleet was still grey. But all new stuff, and everything fitted, brown after 1970. Broken wheel always white.

1987 to present: Brown, but no logo. After around 1990 the brown has got a very slightly more reddish tinge.

 

121 class locos:

1961-mid 60s: Grey & Yellow (not silver, as I've seen described; that's mixing it up with 1950s A, B101, C, D, E401 & G601 classes). For two locos (I think), grey and yellow was actually repainted and lasted until about 1968.

1968-1972:  Black'n'tan

1972-1987:  "Supertrain" orange and black

1987-end:  Same, but with the "tippex" white stripes added and (first) the "set-of-points" logo, later the "three-pin-plug".

 

(*  I saw a "H" van as late as 1975 or 1976 still with a "snail" on it (grey, obviously)....)

 

I'd love to have seen one of these things in late 1950s green, or even Belmond dark blue; but that's just the deluded ramblings of an oul wan!

Edited December 15, 2022 by jhb171achill

[MAL]

First of all: thank you for the freight and 121 livery information.

This helps alot.

Just got the notice: 121 and 135 arrived at the parcelshop for pickup.

I'll place them on the rails tonight and make a picture of my current 4 wheel freight rolling stock (correction: the 3 Magnesite will not be part of it) and the green bogie coaches I have.

With posting these pictures here they will carry the question for more correct numbering of the freight wagons.

I have got 7 or 8 wagons of 3 different types (open, van, cattle) in gray and brown from Marks bought in 2001. At least all the gray vans have identical roadnumber 2001 as well as the other vans have identical numbers.

Some decals from Studio Scale Models will help to improve the appearence - with your help.

 

Hopefully I will not fall in disgrace or receive a warning point here because of the following non-prototypical step:

I also bought a discounted 6 wheel "Toad" (Oxford Rail) to make a gray free lanced brake van. This is just because I loved the appearence of the Toad (and the discount). I will add duckets as it seems to me that all CIE brake vans had them. After I understood the ton assignment of CIE brake vans I will select a "could have been" lettering.

Edited December 16, 2022 by MAL
extended the 2001 roadnumber sentence

[MAL]

This is my whole 4 wheel wagon fleet plus the toad (to become an Irish free lanced brake van).

Which gray is more correct for CIE? The gray of the Marks wagons or of the toad?

And which road numbers would be more prototypical than the 510, 315 and 413D for the gray ones and which ones for the brown 2001s?

Also when were the 7 plank Murphy wagons on the prototypical track?

[MAL]

@ jhb171achill

Regarding the gray B121 I'd like to ask if it would be possible to have a double header with a B&T B181?

murphaph mentioned you might know.

Mixed liverey double header are quite often pictured with the later liveries. But with an early gray B121?

Edited December 20, 2022 by MAL

[flange lubricator]

1 hour ago, MAL said:

@ jhb171achill

Regarding the gray B121 I'd like to ask if it would be possible to have a double header with a B&T B181?

murphaph mentioned you might know.

Mixed liverey double header are quite often pictured with the later liveries. But with an early gray B121?

Not really Grey B121 locos were never equipped to work in multiple until the early 1970's when they were in the B&T livery with some members of the class not being fitted for multiple working until they were in Supertrain livery in the late 1970's.

Edited December 20, 2022 by flange lubricator

[MAL]

Thanks. I did not notice the early 121 had no MU equipment. Good to know.

[murphaph]

There's a thread on those Murphy Brothers wagons somewhere on here. 

[Broithe]

39 minutes ago, murphaph said:

There's a thread on those Murphy Brothers wagons somewhere on here. 

Apart from the in-house Murphy set of three, there was another "Coal Traders" set, with different numbers.

[minister_for_hardship]

I've never seen a pic of a Murphy Bros open actually in use, just a builder's photo.

I imagine they had a short Murphys branded life, probably sold to the GSR or CIE to become yet another anonymous looking grey, filth covered wagon.

[connollystn]

For some reason or other I always thought that the open wagons and vans were painter either grey or brown and not the latter livery replacing the former so, until I read this thread, believed that the flying snail logo was on all of the wagons regardless of the colour scheme. I'm a big fan of the flying snail logo and a tad disappointed it didn't last very long. Can't wait 'til suitable stock is produced to operate with my A30 [silver].

[jhb171achill]

On 16/12/2022 at 9:52 AM, MAL said:

I also bought a discounted 6 wheel "Toad" (Oxford Rail) to make a gray free lanced brake van. This is just because I loved the appearence of the Toad (and the discount). I will add duckets as it seems to me that all CIE brake vans had them. After I understood the ton assignment of CIE brake vans I will select a "could have been" lettering.

You're building up a nice little collection of wagons there. May I recommend, though, some of the Provincial Wagons range, as the Irish goods van designs were very different to British ones?

The "Toad" - yes, a very nice design - I like them too, and when I had a GWR-inspired layout in my teens, they were on the goods trains - I think I had about 3. As you know, they're nothing remotely like anything that ran here, but Rule No. 1 applies here - "it's YOUR layout"! Stick a flying snail on it and you're good to go!

So, for CIE brake vans, the liveries are like this. All grey (not just the body; the roof and chassis too), with painted-on "flying snail" until the late 1950s, when it became a stencilled flying snail until 1963. After that, all grey but with the new CIE "broken wheel" roundel. After only a year or two, they started painting yellow and black diagonal stripes on the protruding ducket with plain black above and below it. (Not the black and WHITE of Cultra; accuracy, museum folks, accuracy, if you want to be taken seriously as a museum!*). So, it the mid 60s, you might get one brake van all grey with snail, another all grey with new logo, and another with new logo AND stripes on ducket. From 1970 they start painting them brown, same as other stock.

The CIE vans were either 20 ton or 30 ton. JM Design does these vans in the original wooden-planked version (some of which were very much in use into the 1970s); later ones were steel-panelled.

Pre-CIE vans were still about occasionally into the late 1950s. Some of these - particularly of ex-MGWR design, had no duckets, and GNR ones didn't either. So while a ducket on a "Toad" would make a very interesting freelance (please post it here?), it is not an absolute necessity.

(* And while you're at it, UFTM, either take the "G S" lettering off "Maedb" and put a "flying snail" on it, OR paint the damn thing in GSR green! NOT CIE green and GS markings.....   I'll get me smelling salts.....)

1 hour ago, connollystn said:

For some reason or other I always thought that the open wagons and vans were painter either grey or brown and not the latter livery replacing the former so, until I read this thread, believed that the flying snail logo was on all of the wagons regardless of the colour scheme. I'm a big fan of the flying snail logo and a tad disappointed it didn't last very long. Can't wait 'til suitable stock is produced to operate with my A30 [silver].

Everything grey until 1970, and gradually brown afterwards. You will see some old colour photos in the late fifties, often exaggerated by winter sunlight, in which wagons appear brown or at least brown-ISH. That's brake dust, and the passage of time since the vehicle concerned ever had an encounter with a paintbrush. Now, in Britain, and latterly on the GNR and NCC, they painted fitted wagons brown, and unfitted grey, but this was not even an exact science. But other Irish railway companies had grey as a standard from way, way, way back. The GSR and CIE simply continued it.

4 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I've never seen a pic of a Murphy Bros open actually in use, just a builder's photo.

I imagine they had a short Murphys branded life, probably sold to the GSR or CIE to become yet another anonymous looking grey, filth covered wagon.

Private owner wagons were just not a "thing" in Ireland. There were a few examples, though, of wagons in private liveries (not the same thing) - Ranks grain wagons, Downshire Coal wagons on the BCDR - but VERY few, and as others suggest, since they were normally the property of the railway company (Downshire excepted), just liveried for a customer, they often ended up in the railway company's standard livery when repainted.

There's an important point here. Comparing Irish goods trains with British, as in train sets - dufferent animals. Your standard British train set will have an open wagon, van, tank wagon and maybe flat wagon. Without large quantities of bulk oliquids to carry in Ireland, or any sort of heavy rail-dependent industry and no mines to speak of, the vast majority of goods vehicles in ireland were either goods vans, cattle vans, or convertible "soft-top" goods / cattle vans. Not as many opens as in a typical train in GB, and tankers were few and far between before the short-lived bulk oil of the 1960s-80s.

On 16/12/2022 at 10:18 PM, MAL said:

This is my whole 4 wheel wagon fleet plus the toad (to become an Irish free lanced brake van).

Which gray is more correct for CIE? The gray of the Marks wagons or of the toad?

And which road numbers would be more prototypical than the 510, 315 and 413D for the gray ones and which ones for the brown 2001s?

Also when were the 7 plank Murphy wagons on the prototypical track?

Lovely collection, and with the ferts you're spanning the old loose-coupled era and more modern fitted freight. You ask about livery details.

Ferts first - just an onservation - as expected, IRM did extensive research. One detail i very much like on these - look at your right-hand fertiliser wagon. It appears to have a dull tan coloured "roundel" logo; this is, in fact, a brake-dust-stained WHITE logo; a ready-weathered logo on the wagon. This was perfectly prototypical. IE / IR / CIE never put anything "tan" on any brown wagon - ever - always white. However, they often ended up looking precisely like this!

Now, to your four-wheelers. To make them look Irish, actually either shade of grey is OK - but the shade on the "Toad" is somewhat closer to the mark. A bit of weathering will sort them all out, but ditch the white handrails and BR markings on the brake van.

Far more importantly, the "black chassis disease". Even early commercially-produced "Irish" wagons - plus an actual preserved one at Downpatrick - are seen with black chassis. Can't be emphasised too much; this is utterly unrealistic for Ireland. Grey wagon, grey chassis. Brown wagon, brown chassis. Roofs too - the brown wagons should have brown roofs, grey wagons, same shade of grey roofs; but nin both cases so heavily weathered that they actually often just looked a dirty colour. So I would repaint all of the chassis on all of them either grey or black, depending on body colour; the brown vans need brown roofs too.

Regarding running numbers, yes, Des Sullivan (SSM) will sort you out with authentic (5-digit usually) wagon running numbers. A "D" suffix indicates a vehicle formerly of the Dublin & South Eastern Railway; their wagons stock did not look remotely like the BR-style vans above! I would just put a CIE number on that.......

The "Murphy" wagons - in all reality, personally, I would just paint them CIE grey and stick either snails or roundels on them. You might paint one brown; while by 1970, when the brown livery came into being, almost all open wagons were the steel corrugated type, there were still a small handful of wooden-bodied ones about. I saw just one in brown, and I've seen a picture of a couple more, but open wooden wagons gaining the brown livery were very few and far between indeed, and very short-lived.

Yes, you're right about double-headed grey 121s. They'd have been all repainted before it was possible to link them up. As you suggest, double-heading in different liveries was indeed possible with OTHER classes; and with 121s when maybe one was still in black'n'tan in the 70s, and another in orange and black "supertrain" livery. In fact, the first time I ever saw a newly-"Supertrained" 121 (in 1972) was in Heuston Station - and it was coupled to a black'n'tan one on a Cork train about to leave!

Hope all of this helps!

It's worth pointing out also that while "Rule 1" applies to all layouts and all modellers - where accuracy is sought, it is worth knowing that literally 100% of all types of model "Irish" wagons by Bachmann, Hornby, whoever etc etc etc - until our own specialist manufacturers came along* - are entirely inaccurate in both design and livery. Every single one of them.

But we now have these: *Provincial, JM Design, SSM, KCME, and many others whose speciality would be more modern bogies wagons......plus, of course, IRM.

Edited December 20, 2022 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, connollystn said:

I'm a big fan of the flying snail logo and a tad disappointed it didn't last very long. Can't wait 'til suitable stock is produced to operate with my A30 [silver].

Me too, and the Hattons six-wheelers will be a game-changer, perfectly complemented by the likes of Provincial Wagons and the others I mentioned above.

We DID get a good long run, though, out of the “snail”; 1946-63 I’d eighteen years, plus there were examples of the snail “flying” around (see what I did?) well into the 1970s.

Edited December 20, 2022 by jhb171achill

[StevieB]

All the photos I’ve seen of CIE wagons have it as a very light grey. Is BR unfitted grey the correct shade?

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, StevieB said:

All the photos I’ve seen of CIE wagons have it as a very light grey. Is BR unfitted grey the correct shade?

Stephen

In some respects, Stevie. It's fine for roughly pre-1960. They started painting them a slightly lighter shade about 1960-ish. The H vans and PalVans were lighter, and any older vans painted in the first few years of the 60s, likewise. But in all reality, the weathering and brake dust tended to overshadow the difference.

 

[StevieB]

Yup, weathering covers a multitude of sins.

Stephen

[StevieB]

Does light grey also apply to Bulleid’s open wagons?

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, StevieB said:

Does light grey also apply to Bulleid’s open wagons?

Stephen

Curiously, those things were technically "silver" (= unpainted) until, double-stacked for beet in the 1990s, when like everything else by then, they became brown.

As built, they had standard grey chassis, like any grey wagon. Earliest examples also had a tiny stencilled flying snail on the chassis. As life went on, both the grey chassis and unpainted corrugated body became a homogenous dirt colour. Only in the last few years before they were double-stacked, the chassis (only) of a small number of them was crudely painted brown, sometimes just a patch behind a painted number. While single height, none of the bodies were ever painted any colour.