Inchicore 141's

[DJ Dangerous]

Following on from these two posts by @228RiverOwenboy;

" 144 was scrapped in March 2022, I'm unsure about 162, 171, 177 and 147... I can only assume that 162 would be next, as it's in the worst condition of them all. "

"I believe so! They were the last 141s in service, with 171 being the last 141 to have been ever used in mainline service (Nov 2011?), and 162 being used to shunt B113 at Inchicore when it was being moved to Cultra in late 2011  "

...and looking at Google Maps just now, does anybody have photos, videos or info on the remaining 141's at Inchicore?

 

[Westcorkrailway]

They  won’t make the year out, DJD. 
 

space is needed in Inchicore. So some things have to go. These 141s have a lot of interchangeable parts with 071s and so have been used as a spares dump. Now however those spares are being taken off by IE and the RPSI 

 

171 is in the back of Connolly shed

144 was scraped 

162, 147 and 177 I don’t know the fates of, but I think one or two are already scraped 

[DJ Dangerous]

Is that photo from the Open Day last May?

[228RiverOwenboy]

15 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

144 was scraped 

And so she was... Poor old girl... This is a screenshot that I found awhile back, and goodness me is it a sad sight to see. 

I'm certain 162 has also been scrapped, as I can't find her anywhere-

[DJ Dangerous]

Sad to see but I guess there's no other solution.

Where was she chopped up?

Is that a Mk2D?

[228RiverOwenboy]

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Sad to see but I guess there's no other solution.

Where was she chopped up?

Is that a Mk2D?

Most likely chopped up at Inchicore! And no, it's a Mark 3 of some sort, it appears to be on temporary bogies... I can only assume it was the spares for the Belmond set or the intended replacement of the Mark 1 Sperry coach (a buffet Mark 3 was also supposed to work in junction with the aforementioned Mark 3).

Here's to hoping the last 141s can be saved somehow... haha... 

[DJ Dangerous]

Seems unlikely.

I mean, they'd be safe down here but shipping them wouldn't be cheap!

[228RiverOwenboy]

2 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Seems unlikely.

I mean, they'd be safe down here but shipping them wouldn't be cheap!

Ah don't worry, I think IE could shrink it down to 00 gauge to save money! 

[DJ Dangerous]

4 minutes ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Ah don't worry, I think IE could shrink it down to 00 gauge to save money! 

Probably ship them in partially assembled kit form.

Please note, some additional parts may be required to complete assembly.

[228RiverOwenboy]

Just now, DJ Dangerous said:

Probably ship them in partially assembled kit form.

Please note, some additional parts may be required to complete assembly.

Sponsored by Murphy Models and Studio Scale Kits!

[Westcorkrailway]

12 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Seems unlikely.

I mean, they'd be safe down here but shipping them wouldn't be cheap!

It’s already far to expensive to ship them domestically! 

[DJ Dangerous]

4 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

It’s already far to expensive to ship them domestically! 

Plus, you have extreme risks up there due to cold, damp, theft and vandalism.

[228RiverOwenboy]

5 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Plus, you have extreme risks up there due to cold, damp, theft and vandalism.

Most definitely vandalism... Sure look at C227 (otherwise known as "C202")! 

[Westcorkrailway]

43 minutes ago, 228RiverOwenboy said:

Most definitely vandalism... Sure look at C227 (otherwise known as "C202")! 

Somhow not cut up herself, surviving to this day! 
 

id love to take on 227 and make it a mesuseum but previous experience shows that, like the model village or cultra. Static exhibits need some form of security 

[Branchline121]

I wish they went back into service on smaller trains... Shame it's unviable.

[Thomas Nolan]

On 6/5/2023 at 9:59 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

They  won’t make the year out, DJD. 
 

space is needed in Inchicore. So some things have to go. These 141s have a lot of interchangeable parts with 071s and so have been used as a spares dump. Now however those spares are being taken off by IE and the RPSI 

 

171 is in the back of Connolly shed

144 was scraped 

162, 147 and 177 I don’t know the fates of, but I think one or two are already scraped 

162 is for scrap this year,  171 isn’t in Connolly shed.. 175 is with 141

177, 147 and 171 are not to be scrapped and will be utilised for different purposes for the RPSI

[Noel]

In time the 22k's, 201s and 071s may also be cut up as they don't meet emissions targets, and diesel will be phased out sooner than we might think as the climate crisis worsens. Hopefully electrification of the main lines is not too far off.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Noel

[spudfan]

I do not think that electrification of our rail network will happen. A lot of our tunnels and bridges just have the bare minimum clearance for the current stock. To get over head catenary throughout would probably need a complete rebuild of these. That effects the road as well as raising the bridge or tunnel means a complete new road approach and alignment. This would not be a close the line over night or at weekends effort. This would be a major shutdown of the line for months on end. Even if there are parts of the network suitable for electrification there will be other parts where non electrified traction would be needed. Maybe third rail electrification might suit but that has other issues.

I do not think it is anyway "green" to ditch the 071 class purely on emissions based reasoning. They have been modified since first entering service and no doubt will continue to be. To mine raw materials, manufacture parts, transport them, take into account emissions caused by people travelling to work to make a "greener" loco it will be better to leave the 071 locos in service. 

If we lived somewhere like India where they are building new railway lines, some specifically for freight, then buying new traction makes sense. 

[DJ Dangerous]

I'd agree.

Surely replacing the 071's with a "greener" loco would be more harmful than making the 071's themselves progressively greener.

Plus, rail transport is already a jillion times greener than road transport.

Might be an idea to 071-ify some 201's at some stage if more power is needed.

[hurricanemk1c]

1 hour ago, spudfan said:

I do not think that electrification of our rail network will happen. A lot of our tunnels and bridges just have the bare minimum clearance for the current stock. To get over head catenary throughout would probably need a complete rebuild of these. That effects the road as well as raising the bridge or tunnel means a complete new road approach and alignment. This would not be a close the line over night or at weekends effort. This would be a major shutdown of the line for months on end. Even if there are parts of the network suitable for electrification there will be other parts where non electrified traction would be needed. Maybe third rail electrification might suit but that has other issues.

I do not think it is anyway "green" to ditch the 071 class purely on emissions based reasoning. They have been modified since first entering service and no doubt will continue to be. To mine raw materials, manufacture parts, transport them, take into account emissions caused by people travelling to work to make a "greener" loco it will be better to leave the 071 locos in service. 

If we lived somewhere like India where they are building new railway lines, some specifically for freight, then buying new traction makes sense. 

While some routes would never be economically viable to electrify, it's more than possible to electrify from an infrastructural viewpoint. A bridge can be raised (if planned correctly) over a bank holiday weekend. It's planned for the Maynooth line and electrification proposals for the Phoenix Park Tunnel are in progress as per the public consultation. 071s can't last forever, neither can 201s, and parts are starting to become harder to get by. If Enterprise goes for loco propulsion, a full fleet replacement would be beneficial both to standardise parts, training and reduce the cost per vehicle. There is a project plan to convert at least one 071 to hydrogen power

[skinner75]

I really hope they don't electrify all lines here - I hate the look of overhead wires, and you can't pretend you are 'back in the day' when there are overhead wires above a steam loco for example!

Then you read about something like this below, and think 'the planet is screwed':

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/mind-boggling-methane-emissions-from-turkmenistan-revealed

[leslie10646]

Hi Skinner. Don't fret, IE are too clever to impose the unbelievably over engineered electrification that the Brits have done. IE's present CME is well on top of the options - he gave a brilliant talk to IRRS London about five years ago.

That said, I can still get a decent shot of a steam engine "under the wires". See my shot of "Mayflower" (a B1 4-6-0) out in the country, but under the wires? The last video on "Growlers at Goring" in What's happening on the network.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by leslie10646

[DJ Dangerous]

53 minutes ago, hurricanemk1c said:

While some routes would never be economically viable to electrify, it's more than possible to electrify from an infrastructural viewpoint. A bridge can be raised (if planned correctly) over a bank holiday weekend. It's planned for the Maynooth line and electrification proposals for the Phoenix Park Tunnel are in progress as per the public consultation. 071s can't last forever, neither can 201s, and parts are starting to become harder to get by. If Enterprise goes for loco propulsion, a full fleet replacement would be beneficial both to standardise parts, training and reduce the cost per vehicle. There is a project plan to convert at least one 071 to hydrogen power

 

I'm no engineer, but I'd rather see batteries than complete electrification. I guess it's entirely possible that the two could merge into a hybrid system, locos charging while the pantographs are up and running on batteries while they're down.

[hurricanemk1c]

Batteries are useless for long distance operation, plus the environmental impact of creating the batteries and recycling them end of life. It's several tonnes extra per vehicle to carry around, and the heavier the vehicle the more energy required to move it. Electrification is the only way to go for proper reductions in emissions and to secure the long-term viability of the railway network. I will admit that some routes (for example the Nenagh branch) wouldn't, at the moment, justify electrification and alternative methods would be possible.

That Wabtec loco is 177 tonnes. A 201 is 112 - so 65 tonnes (or approximately a Baby GM) heavier

[DJ Dangerous]

The 071's are gonna look wierd with pantographs.

[Noel]

3 hours ago, spudfan said:

I do not think that electrification of our rail network will happen. A lot of our tunnels and bridges just have the bare minimum clearance for the current stock. To get over head catenary throughout would probably need a complete rebuild of these. That effects the road as well as raising the bridge or tunnel means a complete new road approach and alignment. This would not be a close the line over night or at weekends effort. This would be a major shutdown of the line for months on end. Even if there are parts of the network suitable for electrification there will be other parts where non electrified traction would be needed. Maybe third rail electrification might suit but that has other issues.

I do not think it is anyway "green" to ditch the 071 class purely on emissions based reasoning. They have been modified since first entering service and no doubt will continue to be. To mine raw materials, manufacture parts, transport them, take into account emissions caused by people travelling to work to make a "greener" loco it will be better to leave the 071 locos in service. 

If we lived somewhere like India where they are building new railway lines, some specifically for freight, then buying new traction makes sense. 

Yes interesting points. Mind you the dart line faced similar insurmountable obstacles in densely populated parts of the capital, yet they were solved by engineering. At that time we were in severe recession, unlike today when Ireland is now the 6th wealthiest nation on the planet and can afford capital projects that seemed unattainable only 15 years ago. We have to invest heavily now in public transport and at scale, dart underground, airport link, intercity electrification, etc. This is a hundred year investment and the capital costs can be spread over 100 years. Rail is vital to public transport success and electrification vital to cutting CO2 quickly. We've run out of time for the niceties of gradual managed transition to cleaner energy. The raw data suggests we have to act now. Not sure how my grandchildren's generation will cope in a world when billions of displaced climate refugees get on the move. There's loads of alt tech to solve engineering problem such as battery packs to enable trains run shortish distances without pantograph or 3rd rail (eg the Luas in Nice, France as an example has no overhead wires in the city centre scenic spots). Same could be done for the Cork Tunnel, instead of dropping the track bed 6 feet lower as they did along much of the Dart line (eg Dun Laoghaire, Sandymount, Dalkey, Killiney, etc) to get overhead clearance for pantograph. We live in exciting times as all the alt tech has already been invented and proven, we don't need to go back to living in caves nor do without the lights on, rather instead we just need to make intelligent 'adjustments' to how we consume energy and food. alt energy is also the biggest economic opportunity our nation has before it. In 25-20 years time energy could be our major export rather than agri-food, pharma and software. Only time will tell. With Dart and Luas we're already 1/4 of the way there perhaps, especially with extended dart commuter lines using hybrid battery for unnelectrified CWR stretches.

46 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

The 071's are gonna look wierd with pantographs.

Yea but they could dry cloths too up there!   The 071s have been incredible work horses and proved to be some investment but they must be getting close to that time they become beyond future economic overhauls. One wonders if there is a plan to replace the Rotem drive units with Hydrogen or Electric units, even Diesel/Hybrids so no emissions when stopped in stations idling for days on end belching out harmful NoX.

[Branchline121]

I wouldn't say the 071s would be converted to electric traction, it's more likely Irish Rail will just order some of those popular TRAXX locos that are everywhere on the continent.

[DJ Dangerous]

Perhaps @BosKonay would be so kind as to move the last few posts into THIS THREAD, as it seems to be covering the same ground.

I guess there's a lot to cover in the debate, and the final calls will be made from a business perspective, with minimum compliance and cost, while maximising return, being the standard.

Not disputing that a hundred year plan would be an advantage for future generations, but I just find it hard to imagine many people in business having that vision - or even caring, as they'll be long dead before their investment pays off.

Also, much as I'd love to see the 071's re-engined to be the future, they can only be rebuilt etc so many times before they just get too old, as @Noel implied in the other thread.

They may have one or two more lifetimes left, whether battery powered, hydrogen powered or OHLE powered.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Perhaps @BosKonay would be so kind as to move the last few posts into THIS THREAD, as it seems to be covering the same ground.

I guess there's a lot to cover in the debate, and the final calls will be made from a business perspective, with minimum compliance and cost, while maximising return, being the standard.

Not disputing that a hundred year plan would be an advantage for future generations, but I just find it hard to imagine many people in business having that vision - or even caring, as they'll be long dead before their investment pays off.

Also, much as I'd love to see the 071's re-engined to be the future, they can only be rebuilt etc so many times before they just get too old, as @Noel implied in the other thread.

They may have one or two more lifetimes left, whether battery powered, hydrogen powered or OHLE powered.

Or even DCC 800v

[DoctorPan]

As one of the engineers involved in DART +, there's no obstruction to electrifying the network. Tunnels can be lowered, bridges raised or diverted and rebuilt and some of the suggested timelines for that amount of work is laughable. Remember a brand new underbridge spanning the Sallins bypass was installed in a weekend.

Electrification is coming, we have carbon emission targets to reach and already we are paying harsh penalties for failure to meet them. 

 

071s and 201s are old tech and have good lifetimes but technology has progressed and its time for their replacements. Enterprise fleet advisory tenders are out and its dual electric locos with a small diesel power-pack is what it looks like it's speccing

Edited May 9, 2023 by DoctorPan

[228RiverOwenboy]

Some news on 162... This photo was taken on the 21st of November at Inchicore. At the time she was paired with 086 and 3185TL (the latter being owned by the RPSI). Most definitely due for scrap very soon.

 

(Credit: Own work)