Hydrogen powered 071

[DJ Dangerous]

22 hours ago, Dempsey said:

I'll try go back and find the article for you @DJ Dangerous. But just to clarify my position, I think technology like this would be of more benefit as like I have stated we would be converting various vehicles already in existence environmentally. 

 

Great, thanks!

[DJ Dangerous]

On 17/9/2023 at 8:06 PM, hurricanemk1c said:

Batteries will struggle in rail operation, particularly for freight. If you think of the weight of batteries currently required to move a car at a sensible speed, what about a 780 tonne train up to 75mph? Operating over a busier and busier network where acceleration becomes more and more important, battery tech for large, heavy modes of transport I don't think will be mature enough. A US battery loco was over double the weight of a 201.

Yes there's an area for them (shunting ops in yards for example) but I don't believe any real distance could be sensibly covered. And bi-mode locos/units while in theory a clever idea, just means you are always hauling equipment around that you don't need at that point in time.

 

One other issue is increase in velocity vs. reduced autonomy. Autonomy for our van was calculated at 65kph in optimum conditions. I've tried driving faster to see what happens, and it drastically reduces the autonomy.

Apply the same logic to a battery electric freight loco and it's very easy to guess that it may not be viable.

OHLE would be amazing but may not happen quickly.

Battery electric multiple-units are something that I can see working out. There is so much space to add batteries under floors etc.

I don't have any figures so I'm guessing here, but surely a full load of passengers adds a lot less than a full container, meaning that battery Container Flats may fall victim to the weight issue.

Again, to clarify, I'm massively in favour of EVE's as part of a transport strategy, where and when they are suitable.

[skinner75]

Just a thought, but there is nothing to stop a loco having a container loaded with batteries on a flat wagon coupled up next to it, before the rest of the freight wagons.

You would then even be able to swap it out for another fully charged 'battery pack' at the end of the journey, and put the other one on charge for the next time.

Or is that too simple?

[DJ Dangerous]

3 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Just a thought, but there is nothing to stop a loco having a container loaded with batteries on a flat wagon coupled up next to it, before the rest of the freight wagons.

You would then even be able to swap it out for another fully charged 'battery pack' at the end of the journey, and put the other one on charge for the next time.

Or is that too simple?

I'm sure I read that they are trialling something along these lines in the US, but I can't remember the specifics.

[raymurph]

 

The story popped in Trains.com from the US:

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/hydrogen-fuel-conversion-planned-for-irish-emd-built-locomotive/

 

Some interesting info on other EMD made exported locos.

Edited October 19, 2023 by raymurph

[Noel]

On 14/9/2023 at 7:19 PM, Newtoncork said:

Very interesting!

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/iarnrod-eireann-and-latvia-s-digas-to-trial-europe

Yes and the 201s could follow suit, but the 071 chassis seem more reliable. Sweat your assets, keep renewing and overhauling. In this era of urgent climate action and in particular the amount of dangerous NoX diesel 071s, 201s and the ICR trams spew out its only a matter of time before diesel traction is banned here and across the EU. This is a good first interim step, next step is to electrify the intercity rail network and all commuter routes, darts could be extended using batteries to line extents lacking catenary or 3rd rail. That could rid us of diesel transport. Road HGVs and Buses look like going Hydrogen as most can use depot feeling infrastructure. Athlone already has a fleet of BEV buses. All change but for the good.

On 16/9/2023 at 8:30 AM, MD220 said:

If I read the article correctly they aren't going to re engine the loco, but will modify its current engine to run on hydrogen. Hopefully this won't alter the noise made by these magnificent machines!

It will alter the noise, they'll be almost silent. A HFCEV makes no noise except for the electric motors, wheels, gears, etc. The GM notching roar will be gone.

[jhb171achill]

13 minutes ago, Noel said:

 

It will alter the noise, they'll be almost silent. A HFCEV makes no noise except for the electric motors, wheels, gears, etc. The GM notching roar will be gone.

Goodbye to the “hellfire” and “thrash”!

Wonder how the preserved ones will fare…..!

[Noel]

On 16/9/2023 at 5:20 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Your right. If regular engines could be converted to hydrogen with relitive ease on tractors, trucks or even cars. It would cut out the huge proportion of co2 burned in producing a new engine while making current engines last a little bit longer as well as be great for the environment 

Problem with H cars is there is zero refilling infrastructure in Ireland, and only 5 forecourts in the entire UK, so one cannot even drive to scotland and back, or outside the state of california. Whereas the BEV charging infrastructure is already wide spread through the EU and here, as well as every home has a 3pin socket. Bare in mind 95% of BEV drivers do 98% of their charging only at home on cheap night rate electricity at about 16c/kWh instead of 71c for high power public CCS chargers. Some folks even charge their cars for free from roof top solar panels 7 months a year, and night rate grid during mid winter. The only constant is change, but clean energy has a compelling economic argument despite it being fashionable for folks to dislike the green party. Ireland is on target to achieve 80% renewable no carbon fuels for our electricity grid by 2030, augmented by cheap french nuclear electricity via the celtic interconnector. The rate of invisible change going on under the radar is phenomenal, like it or not we'll all end up driving egg whisk powered milk floats within the next 7 years. Some ecomony models manage 0-60 in 6 seconds which is not bad for an egg box milk float. Rail has the advantage of depot refilling for H and the option for electric via catenary of 3rd rail. Our rail track milage is low so capital cost is not too high to electrify all the main lines over the next 15-20 years or so as per the recent strategic rail review. Its not rocket science when Ireland achieves energy independence electrifying every thing will make economic sense.

[Noel]

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Goodbye to the “hellfire” and “thrash”!

Wonder how the preserved ones will fare…..!

The same as vintage and classic cars which won't be effected by the ban on the sales of petrol, diesel and hybrid cars. RPSI and preserved railways will be exempt (eg coal fire steam locos), due to the tiny cumulative amounts of CO2 they will emit over a whole year. We'll still hear the trash from preserved 141, 142, 146 and A39, etc, but perhaps a dart like whine from 071s and 201s. Some of the 201 scrape line could perhaps be saved by HFC conversions. The big cost down the road could be ditching the diesel power plants in the growing tram fleet (ie 22k ICRs), or converting 22k to electric.

 

[murphaph]

This isn't a hydrogen fuel cell project. They are modifying the combustion engine to burn hydrogen instead of diesel. It'll definitely make loud noises of some description. 

[Noel]

8 hours ago, murphaph said:

This isn't a hydrogen fuel cell project. They are modifying the combustion engine to burn hydrogen instead of diesel. It'll definitely make loud noises of some description. 

Interesting a H ICE. If Ryanair introduced the Hindenburg air ship I probably wouldn't be flying with them, and on a train I might be sitting in coach G at the very back of the rake (ie in jest). HFC has very few moving parts to maintain H ICE has more mechanical moving parts. Your dead right if not HFC they'll make noise.

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Interesting a H ICE. If Ryanair introduced the Hindenburg air ship I probably wouldn't be flying with them, and on a train I might be sitting in coach G at the very back of the rake (ie in jest). HFC has very few moving parts to maintain H ICE has more mechanical moving parts. Your dead right if not HFC they'll make noise.

 

 

On 16/9/2023 at 8:44 AM, DJ Dangerous said:

I'd assume that the engine mod is something like this, and that the enhanced 071 sound, as with the Corolla, will provoke an increase in blood pressure to ones nether regions.

 

 

 

[Mike 84C]

JCB have already announced an ICE engine for plant, to run on hydrogen and its had press demo's.

I cannot understand the big wail about no infrastructure for hydrogen as a fuel for IC. Its already there, called a filling station and will be there for as long as petrol and diesel is needed/ available.

Maybe 20 yrs?

 

 

[murphaph]

Yeah but you can't just use the existing storage and dispensing infrastructure at a filling station. An entirely new tank and dispensing system has to be added and this costs almost as much as a new traditional filling station probably (given the fact hydrogen is stored and dispensed under pressure), and petrol and diesel will be niche products in the medium term. It won't be worth maintaining the petrol and diesel side for the few remaining customers and hydrogen will be pretty niche too, as virtually all cars and light commercials will be BEV. That only leaves heavy commercial vehicles as a customer base. In Denmark recently the hydrogen filling stations all shut down or will shut down in the near future. It doesn't bode well for hydrogen as a mass-market fuel. 

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/in-an-unexpected-turn-of-events-denmark-will-close-all-its-hydrogen-refueling-stations-for-vehicles/

[Mike 84C]

Thanks for posting that about hydrogen in Denmark. The way it reads to me is a lack of interest from motor manufacturing so maybe they are to far down the battery route  to back off.

Or they can make more money by supplying replacement battery packs. I'm glad it will not affect me!

[irishrailways52]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Goodbye to the “hellfire” and “thrash”!

Wonder how the preserved ones will fare…..!

hopefully they will preserve an original 071 and 201 engine. 

[Noel]

9 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

JCB have already announced an ICE engine for plant, to run on hydrogen and its had press demo's.

I cannot understand the big wail about no infrastructure for hydrogen as a fuel for IC. Its already there, called a filling station and will be there for as long as petrol and diesel is needed/ available.

Maybe 20 yrs?

 

 

The cost of installing hugh pressure H storage tanks underground and pumps at a forecourt is massive and the distribution costs massive, its a very expensive form of road fuel. There are zero public H pumps in Ireland and only 5 in the whole UK. There are over 5000 electric car chargers in Ireland already as well as the 50,000+ homes already with 32amp type 2 sockets already installed, and the rest of Irish homes that already have a 3 pin socket. The national grid is the most efficient way of delivering kWh from source to a car (ie compared to H road tankers and all the expensive safety gear that entails). Well to Wheel H is brutally inefficient and expensive compared to battery electric cars (85% efficient). Its a free market consumer choice will probably rule the day in the end. HFCEV makes sense for HGVs and Buses due to the limited refuelling infrastructure needed (ie depot refueling rather than public forecourts). 25 years ago I'd have bet my shirt on HFCEV for cars, but then along came Tesla and they proved BEV could work conveniently in half decent looking cars, and the entire motor industry was disrupted and followed suit with the sole exception of Toyota (ie potentially the new Kodak). It'll be fun to watch from the sidelines but glad Ireland has woken up and got in gear (forgive the pun). Existing diesel and petrol cars are allowed remain on roads until 2040 when NCTs will no longer be issued. Only time will tell how all this affects rail transport.

3 hours ago, irishrailways52 said:

hopefully they will preserve an original 071 and 201 engine. 

RPSI might buy one of the 201s from the scrap line, and get their hands on one 071.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Noel

[murphaph]

Same. I always assumed H would be the fuel of the future for everything but BEV development is clearly moving at pace. There are (admittedly luxury) cars that already have the battery range of similar ICE vehicles. Batteries are becoming more energy dense, lighter, cheaper and even safer (from the point of view of fire) every year. I am pretty sure we will see BEVs with much greater range than ICEs in the coming years. The trend is really clear now.

H remains a viable fuel for those buses and HGVs but even there I reckon batteries will be so good in twenty years that justifying the infrastructure maintenance costs for H will be very difficult. There is already a Tesla truck tractor unit on the market. It doesn't yet have the range but it has the power. The range will come.

[Broithe]

All these things are 'evolutionary'. I can remember people who would 'never have a diesel car', because you couldn't rely on being able to find a petrol station that had diesel available.

I also remember the range anxiety of going round Wales on a Sunday with a small fuel tank on a motorbike.

In the early days of motoring, you had to get your petrol in glass jars from a chemist, if there was one that had any, and if it was open.

I know people in England who do still manage to drive LPG cars, by being organised enough to do so.

I also know people who would never cope with an electric car - their phone is always on one bar, if it works at all, and any journey with them driving starts by having to put some fuel in to be safe.

Consumer behaviour and responses, and the investment decisions by multinational businessess (or cartels?) will define what finally happens - and it won't be 'one-size-fits-all'.

Even if people choose not to believe in the climate effects, fossil fuels will not go on forever.

Things will change and you need to keep an eye on the direction of things and your own circumstances, with a view to lining the two up to a reasonable extent.

 

The fact that we can't provide a single solution overall tomorrow doesn't mean that there can't be various combined partial solutions in the future.

Equally, the fact that we should be able to do something doesn't mean that we will, or that it will become available.

 

A good example of the process is cordless tools - the early stuff was fairly lightweight stuff, only really for delicate jobs - these days, I hardly ever plug in a mains device.

I remember telling a bloke I worked with in the 80s that I had just bought a cordless kettle (one that lifts off the mains-powered base, without the encumbrance of an attached lead). He refused to believe me - it took a while for him to explain that a cordless kettle was impossible, as the battery would need to be huge...

 

Conveniently, I had a chat with someone yesterday, as she was driving a Hyundai Kona. I might, one day, look at having one, so I quizzed her about it. It was a hybrid, with a small battery under the boot floor, and a petrol engine for when that wasn't enough. She was very happy with it and I mentioned that I was more interested in the full electric version, as I've only ever been beyond 200 miles in one day in my current car in the last 13 years. She, as a fire prevention officer, with a 'mechanic husband', advised against that, due to the fire risk from the battery - despite having a smaller, but similar, battery in hers and a petrol tank...

[Noel]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Same. I always assumed H would be the fuel of the future for everything but BEV development is clearly moving at pace. There are (admittedly luxury) cars that already have the battery range of similar ICE vehicles. Batteries are becoming more energy dense, lighter, cheaper and even safer (from the point of view of fire) every year. I am pretty sure we will see BEVs with much greater range than ICEs in the coming years. The trend is really clear now.

H remains a viable fuel for those buses and HGVs but even there I reckon batteries will be so good in twenty years that justifying the infrastructure maintenance costs for H will be very difficult. There is already a Tesla truck tractor unit on the market. It doesn't yet have the range but it has the power. The range will come.

Yes remember the year on year exponential increase in CPU speed every year from 1985 and especially in the 1990 with CPU power doubling every 6 months. Same looks like happening with battery density and chemistry. BEV sales have hit over 25% of market share here, the tide is flowing in one direction at the moment. As the new ICE ban gets closer year on year a tipping point may be achieved causing residual values of existing ICE vehicles fall off a cliff edge. 2040 is still 16 years away and 2035 eleven years before new ICE sales banned. Consumers seem ahead of policy on adoption of alt energy, with the explosion of heat pumps, BEVs, and homes with Solar PV. Where will it all end Ted? Will we all end up driving Pat Mustard's milk float at only 4mph?    Looking forward to the quiet swoosh of electric intercity on CWR to Cork in the future, perhaps eventually quad tracking of Dart lines to Connolly, sooner Dart link to Houston and Dublin Airport, and I asked Santa for an IRM C class for Christmas.   With a rake of laminate CIE coaches.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

Conveniently, I had a chat with someone yesterday, as she was driving a Hyundai Kona. I might, one day, look at having one, so I quizzed her about it. It was a hybrid, with a small battery under the boot floor, and a petrol engine for when that wasn't enough. She was very happy with it and I mentioned that I was more interested in the full electric version, as I've only ever been beyond 200 miles in one day in my current car in the last 13 years. She, as a fire prevention officer, with a 'mechanic husband', advised against that, due to the fire risk from the battery - despite having a smaller, but similar, battery in hers and a petrol tank...

Yes OPEC's brilliant BEV's burst into flames myths, BEVS banned from car parks, there was a famous fire 3 years ago with a Kona Electric on fire in a US homes garage, it turned out that the cause was a faulty tumble dryer in the garage rather than the Kona's battery. 12 Kona's world wide out of 80,000 had LG battery issues, all 80,000 were recalled and given new complete HV battery packs under warranty. Hyundai realised this could be their 'diesel gate' equivalent moment so they spend $2bn replacing all the batteries as they sought to be leaders in the world BEV market. Approx 3000 ICE cars a year catch fire in Ireland for a variety of reasons, Zero BEVs so far (source Fire Service). The media who earn substationial advert revenue from legacy auto and indirectly OPEC, peddle many of these EV myths cause they make sensational stories and nobody fact checks any more. Ultimately it'll be the consumer who decides how fast the current transition era proceeds. Big Oil now seems like its a sunset industry. Every govt in developed world has lead the charge to dump diesel asap, decarbonise and move to alt energy. No sign yet of useable fusion, but that will be cracked one day, and that will change everything when grids become 100% fossil free.

[Broithe]

6 minutes ago, Noel said:

Yes OPEC's brilliant BEV's burst into flames myths, BEVS banned from car parks, there was a famous fire 3 years ago with a Kona Electric on fire in a US homes garage, it turned out that the cause was a faulty tumble dryer in the garage rather than the Kona's battery.

Of the six, maybe eight, people who spoke to me about the Newbridge McDonald's fire, all of them believed that it was an electric vehicle.

[Mayner]

Lithium-ion battery device fires (bikes, phones, laptops, tools) rather than cars has become a significant issue in recent years las Li devices have become more prevelant  https://www.fireandemergency.nz/home-fire-safety/home-fire-hazards/lithium-ion-battery-safety/.

NZ fire service have been running a number of 'controlled burns" to show how quickly a Li fire can consume a typical NZ timber frame house. For us the potential killer is the phone or laptop on charge in a bedroom, Li powered garden and power tools are in the workshop.

Don't know if we will get around to changing to an electric car or hybrid, we hope to get at least 10 years out of our current car a 10 year old Japanese import same as we did with out last car.

 

[Noel]

10 hours ago, Broithe said:

Of the six, maybe eight, people who spoke to me about the Newbridge McDonald's fire, all of them believed that it was an electric vehicle.

A local told me it was an old diesel merc. Dunno for certain. New definition of French fries that's for sure. Thank God nobody hurt in that incident.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Noel

[Noel]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

Lithium-ion battery device fires (bikes, phones, laptops, tools) rather than cars has become a significant issue in recent years las Li devices have become more prevelant  https://www.fireandemergency.nz/home-fire-safety/home-fire-hazards/lithium-ion-battery-safety/.

NZ fire service have been running a number of 'controlled burns" to show how quickly a Li fire can consume a typical NZ timber frame house. For us the potential killer is the phone or laptop on charge in a bedroom, Li powered garden and power tools are in the workshop.

Don't know if we will get around to changing to an electric car or hybrid, we hope to get at least 10 years out of our current car a 10 year old Japanese import same as we did with out last car.

 

Yip consumer devices don't have the sort of sophisticated battery management (BMS) and thermal management that BEVs have (except Nissan Leafs that still have clock work analog batteries that cook themselves). There's an average of 800 batteries on board every flight and yet air liners are not falling out of the skies in flames regularly, but OPEC news channels would have us believe its not safe to leave a car in an underground car park, or parked outside a house.

There's lots of reasons cars catch fire from overheating catalytic converters, broken exhausts, to engine over heats melting wiring, 12v system fails, poor maintenance, crashes, stolen cars/arson, collisions shorting 12v wiring, ruptured fuel/oil lines etc. Everything can burn. Think about the risk a model layout possesses 3 or 5amps of a DCC controller is enough to set fire to 16v wiring, all that wiring that could become damaged or shorted, even a loco decoder frying could potentially set a layout on fire if adequate short circuit protection is not available. Think of all the lighting on a layout. I keep a smoke detector in the layout room and never leak the electronics switched on unless I'm in the room. I'm sure many of us have electric heaters in layout sheds and rooms during winter, and all manner of solvents and combustable paints, thinners and primers in sheds. Life has risks, once we mitigate enough we can live without stressing over it.

[Broithe]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Think about the risk a model layout possesses 3 or 5amps of a DCC controller is enough to set fire to 16v wiring, all that wiring that could become damaged or shorted, even a loco decoder frying could potentially set a layout on fire if adequate short circuit protection is not available. Think of all the lighting on a layout. I keep a smoke detector in the layout room and never leak the electronics switched on unless I'm in the room. I'm sure many of us have electric heaters in layout sheds and rooms during winter, and all manner of solvents and combustable paints, thinners and primers in sheds. Life has risks, once we mitigate enough we can live without stressing over it.

Back in the days of grain-of-wheat bulbs, they could get very hot, if run at the full 12V - I found a few scorch-marks from them, particularly in cardboard Metclafe-type buildings, and always made a point of ensuring that they were 'in the middle' of an air-space and not up against anything solid.

And I once took apart an old steam model, to tart up its running a bit, only to find that it actually had a smoke unit installed - and there had clearly been a fairly exciting fire in the past, as the oil took light, although there was little visible damage externally.

The materials used in the scenery of layouts are essentially a form of tinder, should anything happen...

[DJ Dangerous]

13 hours ago, Broithe said:

Of the six, maybe eight, people who spoke to me about the Newbridge McDonald's fire, all of them believed that it was an electric vehicle.

 

Whopper of an exhaust for an electric vehicle.

[Broithe]

6 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Whopper of an exhaust for an electric vehicle.

When I pointed that out, the "believers" assumed that it must be an innocent victim of a fire caused by an EV that had burned to the ground or been removed.

[DJ Dangerous]

3 minutes ago, Broithe said:

When I pointed that out, the "believers" assumed that it must be an innocent victim of a fire caused by an EV that had burned to the ground or been removed.

 

And Covid vaccines have magnetic tracking chips, George Bush blew up the world trade centre to steal the gold, the moon landing was faked, and aircraft are sprinkling chemicals on us to reduce the population.

[Broithe]

3 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

the moon landing was faked

The Moon Landing Hoax was actually started by NASA.

Do you really think they haven't been going back there for the last fifty years?

They are -

A, Hiding the fact that they found an alien base there and have been in continuous contact with them ever since.

Or.

B, Building a base on the Far Side, so the Illuminati can escape there when the Earth becomes uninhabitable and the rest of us will all just be left to die down here.

 

It's obvious, if people just think about it...

[DJ Dangerous]

47 minutes ago, Broithe said:

The Moon Landing Hoax was actually started by NASA.

Do you really think they haven't been going back there for the last fifty years?

They are -

A, Hiding the fact that they found an alien base there and have been in continuous contact with them ever since.

Or.

B, Building a base on the Far Side, so the Illuminati can escape there when the Earth becomes uninhabitable and the rest of us will all just be left to die down here.

 

It's obvious, if people just think about it...

Is there a Superquinn store up there? Or even a supervalu with SQ sausages?

[Jack_Dunboyne]

First Polish fully operational Hydro engine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIk4Tht9SZo

[Noel]

22 minutes ago, Jack_Dunboyne said:

First Polish fully operational Hydro engine


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIk4Tht9SZo

She's very quiet, must be a HFC powered rather than HCE

[murphaph]

41 minutes ago, Noel said:

She's very quiet, must be a HFC powered rather than HCE

Yep, says so in the youtube description:

Quote

This vehicle uses hydrogen cells like batteries, drawing from them the energy needed to power the electric traction motors that power the entire locomotive.

 

[skinner75]

On 20/10/2023 at 7:56 PM, Broithe said:

Conveniently, I had a chat with someone yesterday, as she was driving a Hyundai Kona. I might, one day, look at having one, so I quizzed her about it. It was a hybrid, with a small battery under the boot floor, and a petrol engine for when that wasn't enough. She was very happy with it and I mentioned that I was more interested in the full electric version, as I've only ever been beyond 200 miles in one day in my current car in the last 13 years. She, as a fire prevention officer, with a 'mechanic husband', advised against that, due to the fire risk from the battery - despite having a smaller, but similar, battery in hers and a petrol tank...

As dad says, a hybrid has the problems of both systems. The beauty of fully electric is you get rid of the parts that cause trouble with ICE cars. 

Also, the recent fire in Luton carpark looks like it was caused by a hybrid Range Rover, not a fully electric job. 

Plenty of craic with hydrogen too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-toRJseb_o0&t=42s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kxnjB7l3bE&t=16s

Edited October 22, 2023 by skinner75