Navan Station

[Der Rechtsanwalt]

 

[Darrman]

I can't see any long-term future for the Navan Branch. I'd like to be proven wrong, but even if Taras start again they won't last forever, and how much traffic potential is there between Navan and Drogheda and stations north of it? Even if they started a passenger service tomorrow, you'd either have a shuttle onto a non-existent branch platform at Drogheda at 25mph for 17 miles, or make the already-existing congestion on the GNR even worse by continuing on to Connolly. An extra 31 3/4 miles results in a journey of 48 3/4 miles from Connolly to Navan, which doesn't compare favourably with the 55km (~35 miles) Google's giving me by road from centre to centre.

If it were to be brought into passenger use again, a speed upgrade would be mandatory. Beauparc wouldn't reopen. Duleek is worth considering, but the station's a bit far from the town. Dart+ is already planning a platform on the Navan Branch, so that would solve that particular issue. Accessing the rest of the station would be impossible. Quadrupling the Northern for a distance (~Clongriffin or so) is already necessary, but extra Navans would make it even more vital.

The MGWR's line to Navan was a lot shorter - Navan Junction was 30 1/2 miles from Broadstone, so probably about ~32 miles or so to the Docklands - but that's implying it will ever get built.

Forgive the idle chatter, but if a magic money tree sprouted, how (non-)feasible would it be to have some sort of preservation outfit once the Taras officially cease? (Yes, I know it's hard enough in Downpatrick as it is.)

Nice video, too. I'd love to travel on the Navan Branch at least once.

[Louth]

The reopening of the 27km Navan-Drogheda line to passenger service has been raised with the NTA/Irish Rail/Minister etc on a number of occasions by local groups (part of the rational is to generate an economic hub in the north east on the Navan-Drogheda-Dundalk triangle which is independent of Dublin). Trains for Dublin that currently start in Drogheda could instead go from Navan without a requirement for new paths on the Northern line. However there is no willingness to progress with the proposal. The longer term solution is the direct Dublin-Navan line.

[Patrick Davey]

I'll remain optimistic (admittedly without hard evidence!) that the Navan branch will eventually have life breathed into it again.  Seems a pity to have all that infrastructure there for it just to be left to decay - although it wouldn't be the first time that happened....

Yip - great video.

[jhb171achill]

One argument against reopening Navan - and, in truth, it is the only argument aganist, albeit a fairly powerful one; is that from M3 Parkway to Navan via the D & M route, or from Drogheda via the GNR route, neither of them pass through any other significant population centre en route, therefore the reopening would be just to serve on single significant terminus. Much as Navan COULD do with it, the NTA are unlikely to consider it as a priority for a very long time to come.

More urgently, something simply MUST be done about proper long-term planning and significant infrastructural modifications along the Drogheda - Bray (and Howth) corridor.

[Branchline121]

4 hours ago, Darrman said:

I can't see any long-term future for the Navan Branch. I'd like to be proven wrong, but even if Taras start again they won't last forever, and how much traffic potential is there between Navan and Drogheda and stations north of it? Even if they started a passenger service tomorrow, you'd either have a shuttle onto a non-existent branch platform at Drogheda at 25mph for 17 miles, or make the already-existing congestion on the GNR even worse by continuing on to Connolly. An extra 31 3/4 miles results in a journey of 48 3/4 miles from Connolly to Navan, which doesn't compare favourably with the 55km (~35 miles) Google's giving me by road from centre to centre.

If it were to be brought into passenger use again, a speed upgrade would be mandatory. Beauparc wouldn't reopen. Duleek is worth considering, but the station's a bit far from the town. Dart+ is already planning a platform on the Navan Branch, so that would solve that particular issue. Accessing the rest of the station would be impossible. Quadrupling the Northern for a distance (~Clongriffin or so) is already necessary, but extra Navans would make it even more vital.

The MGWR's line to Navan was a lot shorter - Navan Junction was 30 1/2 miles from Broadstone, so probably about ~32 miles or so to the Docklands - but that's implying it will ever get built.

Forgive the idle chatter, but if a magic money tree sprouted, how (non-)feasible would it be to have some sort of preservation outfit once the Taras officially cease? (Yes, I know it's hard enough in Downpatrick as it is.)

Nice video, too. I'd love to travel on the Navan Branch at least once.

It hasn’t seen a passenger service since 1995 AFAIK (albeit that was a special), but you’d think that the GNRI station could be opened in the interim for a service to Dublin to bridge the gap between now and when the ex-D&M reopens in 2036, a good 12 years from now, especially considering the line is so sparsely used now. The lack of a Navan branch platform is an issue, but a wooden platform could probably be thrown together hastily, right?

[Mayner]

Is there anything to stop Meath County Council and the two town councils to fund a Navan-Drogheda train service in the same manner as regional, town and city councils fund local train and bus services in many countries.

In Hamilton where I live the daily commuter service to Auckland is part funded by the Councils and our equivalent of the NTA. In our city 100,000 population each property (house and business premises) is charged  (Rates) €40.00 annually for the benefit of the commuter train and €129 local bus services.

The majority of councilors on both the Regional and City Council voted in favour of funding a rail service despite strong idealogical opposition from those that take a centre right stance.

In the Uk a number of passenger trains services reinstated during the 80s-90s were initailly operated on a trial basis by BR using temporary platforms constructed from scaffold with the council underwritinng BRs losses establishing and operating the service.

The fact that Galway and Cork Corporations are part funding rail improvements in their regions (Oranmore station and dynamic loop, Cork suburban rail upgrades) indicates that there is nothing to stop councils getting involved in funding rail projects provided the local electorate are prepared to subsidise these services by paying higher rates.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

56 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Is there anything to stop Meath County Council and the two town councils to fund a Navan-Drogheda train service in the same manner as regional, town and city councils fund local train and bus services in many countries.

In Hamilton where I live the daily commuter service to Auckland is part funded by the Councils and our equivalent of the NTA. In our city 100,000 population each property (house and business premises) is charged  (Rates) €40.00 annually for the benefit of the commuter train and €129 local bus services.

The majority of councilors on both the Regional and City Council voted in favour of funding a rail service despite strong idealogical opposition from those that take a centre right stance.

In the Uk a number of passenger trains services reinstated during the 80s-90s were initailly operated on a trial basis by BR using temporary platforms constructed from scaffold with the council underwritinng BRs losses establishing and operating the service.

The fact that Galway and Cork Corporations are part funding rail improvements in their regions (Oranmore station and dynamic loop, Cork suburban rail upgrades) indicates that there is nothing to stop councils getting involved in funding rail projects provided the local electorate are prepared to subsidise these services by paying higher rates.

The issue seems to be the NTA, who in conjunction with the government hold all the cards. If and when there is enthusiasm within that body (e.g. re a new proposed cycle lane) it tends to get done, with or without local council funding. As far as rail is concerned, local authorities will doubtlessly be deterred by the colossal bill that the NTA would wave at them if they offered to fund something like this.

This should not be, but it certainly would appear to be the case. Yes, Brexitstan and other countries are ahead of us on that point in some cases, but the NTA is often referred to as the "No Trains Authority"; their fascination with roads and motorways and buses is reminiscent of the UTA in the 1950s.

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

The issue seems to be the NTA, who in conjunction with the government hold all the cards. If and when there is enthusiasm within that body (e.g. re a new proposed cycle lane) it tends to get done, with or without local council funding. As far as rail is concerned, local authorities will doubtlessly be deterred by the colossal bill that the NTA would wave at them if they offered to fund something like this.

This should not be, but it certainly would appear to be the case. Yes, Brexitstan and other countries are ahead of us on that point in some cases, but the NTA is often referred to as the "No Trains Authority"; their fascination with roads and motorways and buses is reminiscent of the UTA in the 1950s.

In this part of the World Government has instructed Transit New Zealand our equivalent of the NTA to focus on roads and motorways away from (public transport/cycleways/greenways which were favoured by the last centre left government) so not a lot different to the NTA. The sting in the tail is that its planned to introduce a 'User Pays" system to charge road users which is likely to be more expensive than current fuel exise and road taxes.

The cost of setting up and operating the 5year trial Hamilton-Auckland commuter service was substantial although no significant mechanical or civil engineering works were required. €35m to refurbish two train sets and two new stations (single platform w car park) and €17m subsidy intiially 70% supported by our equivalent of NTA.   At this stage councils have to make a decision whether to fully fund the service or increase fares in an attempt to make up the shortfall if Transit reduces or withdraws funding at the end of the 5 year trial period. The train service is likely to cost the local ratepayers €1.7m annually if Transit continues funding at 51% at the end of the trial period the rate of support to other regional commuter rail services in New Zealand.

Setting up and subsidising a commuter service between Navan and Drogheda is highly likely to be more expensive than a commuter bus service and cost the tax payers money.

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, Mayner said:

In this part of the World Government has instructed Transit New Zealand our equivalent of the NTA to focus on roads and motorways away from (public transport/cycleways/greenways which were favoured by the last centre left government) so not a lot different to the NTA. The sting in the tail is that its planned to introduce a 'User Pays" system to charge road users which is likely to be more expensive than current fuel exise and road taxes.

The cost of setting up and operating the 5year trial Hamilton-Auckland commuter service was substantial although no significant mechanical or civil engineering works were required. €35m to refurbish two train sets and two new stations (single platform w car park) and €17m subsidy intiially 70% supported by our equivalent of NTA.   At this stage councils have to make a decision whether to fully fund the service or increase fares in an attempt to make up the shortfall if Transit reduces or withdraws funding at the end of the 5 year trial period. The train service is likely to cost the local ratepayers €1.7m annually if Transit continues funding at 51% at the end of the trial period the rate of support to other regional commuter rail services in New Zealand.

Setting up and subsidising a commuter service between Navan and Drogheda is highly likely to be more expensive than a commuter bus service and cost the tax payers money.

Indeed - almost certainly so. Much as it would be welcomed by many, and doubtless used, the reality is that railways cost money to run, and the government will know this.

[Darrman]

I quickly looked up bus schedules between Navan and Drogheda and there's an hourly bus between the two. I wonder how well they're used? Is there any equivalent to the railway censuses for buses? Cursory searches didn't provide any information beyond broad strokes "there were x million passengers using buses in year". 

https://www.buseireann.ie/routes-and-timetables/190

[ttc0169]

It would make a great preserved railway if it’s not going to be used for IE passenger work….

[Louth]

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The issue seems to be the NTA, who in conjunction with the government hold all the cards. If and when there is enthusiasm within that body (e.g. re a new proposed cycle lane) it tends to get done, with or without local council funding. As far as rail is concerned, local authorities will doubtlessly be deterred by the colossal bill that the NTA would wave at them if they offered to fund something like this.

This should not be, but it certainly would appear to be the case. Yes, Brexitstan and other countries are ahead of us on that point in some cases, but the NTA is often referred to as the "No Trains Authority"; their fascination with roads and motorways and buses is reminiscent of the UTA in the 1950s.

As always, you have hit the nail on the head!

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, ttc0169 said:

It would make a great preserved railway if it’s not going to be used for IE passenger work….

I always thought Mullingar-Athlone would be ideal for such a thing. 

All you need is 40 km of fencing...

[DoctorPan]

Winners of the recent Navan Line tender are due to be officially announced in the short term future, two main options to be invesitgated, the old D&M alignment or a diverision to bring it closer to Dunshaughlin. 

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The issue seems to be the NTA, who in conjunction with the government hold all the cards. If and when there is enthusiasm within that body (e.g. re a new proposed cycle lane) it tends to get done, with or without local council funding. As far as rail is concerned, local authorities will doubtlessly be deterred by the colossal bill that the NTA would wave at them if they offered to fund something like this.

This should not be, but it certainly would appear to be the case. Yes, Brexitstan and other countries are ahead of us on that point in some cases, but the NTA is often referred to as the "No Trains Authority"; their fascination with roads and motorways and buses is reminiscent of the UTA in the 1950s.

In fairness to the NTA, it's not for lack of interest in building railways. Indeed Marcello the head of rail is very eager to push projects through and get shovels in the ground. Indeed he has butted heads with IÉ over they wanting to run services to suit the infrastructure while he wants IÉ to be looking to put the infrastructure in to support the desired services. The NTA of old was more interested in buses but since the change in personal there's a big change coming from their side of the field.

It is the departments of finance and public expenditure that are pumping the breaks on projects and requesting increasing levels of reports to show financial benefits as the OPW debacale has spooked the civil service into being afraid of signing off on infrastructure. Cycle lanes are smaller and nimble projects that don't have to go through the same level of regulatorly financial red tape. It's also should be noted that rail infrastructure investment is new again to the island and the industry has taken time to get to grips with delivering these projects but there's been a lot of background enabling works going on that are starting to come on stream which will speed up other projects. 

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

Winners of the recent Navan Line tender are due to be officially announced in the short term future, two main options to be invesitgated, the old D&M alignment or a diverision to bring it closer to Dunshaughlin. 

……The NTA of old was more interested in buses but since the change in personal there's a big change coming from their side of the field.

It is the departments of finance and public expenditure that are pumping the breaks on projects and requesting increasing levels of reports to show financial benefits as the OPW debacale has spooked the civil service into being afraid of signing off on infrastructure. Cycle lanes are smaller and nimble projects that don't have to go through the same level of regulatorly financial red tape. It's also should be noted that rail infrastructure investment is new again to the island and the industry has taken time to get to grips with delivering these projects but there's been a lot of background enabling works going on that are starting to come on stream which will speed up other projects. 

Let’s hope so!

[GSR 800]

https://irishcycle.com/2024/10/26/irish-rail-gearing-up-to-formally-restart-dublin-to-navan-rail-project/

[DoctorPan]

Tender award for the project and announcement for the winners is due to be made public shortly. 

[Darrman]

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/project-development-for-navan-rail-line-to-begin

Irish Rail press release today: RPS appointed as consultants, two years spent planning with a public consultation at some point in that, railway order application for 2027. Stations at Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan explicitly mentioned.

Just speaking for myself, what's stopping them from reusing the pre-crash plans as opposed to going through planning again?

[DoctorPan]

22 minutes ago, Darrman said:

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/project-development-for-navan-rail-line-to-begin

Irish Rail press release today: RPS appointed as consultants, two years spent planning with a public consultation at some point in that, railway order application for 2027. Stations at Dunshaughlin and Kilmessan explicitly mentioned.

Just speaking for myself, what's stopping them from reusing the pre-crash plans as opposed to going through planning again?

Updated requirements and the information being out dated. 

[Darrman]

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2024/12/04/proposed-navan-dublin-rail-line-likely-to-cost-up-to-3bn-transport-authority-estimates/

Article in the Times prices Navan at €2-3 billion, up from €1.5-2 billion in 2021. Inflation is blamed for the revised estimate. For comparison, I tried to find the cost to build up to M3 Parkway and I found this: (source: https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/dublinnavanrailline/)

"Phase I of the project is estimated to cost around €160m, while phase II will total around €500m. Phase I of the project is expected to be completed by September 2010 and phase II by 2015."

Let's assume those estimates are accurate for 2010. A six-fold cost increase in fifteen years is not good. We better get a double-track electrified railway travelling at least 100mph for that...

[spudfan]

Reopening and returning the line to every day usage seems like a no brainer but it will have constraints. The frequency of the traffic on the line will be determined where the final stop is and how congested that is at the moment, especially at peak times.