Tender First Working

[StevieB]

The railways of Ireland and Great Britain have a great many similarities but also a number of distinct differences, the most obvious being that of track gauge. A less obvious one is the, apparent, distinct lack of tender first working. Almost every terminus had a turntable, even the narrow gauge ones. Any ideas why this might be. I did, however, recently come across a photo of a freight train coming off the Waterford line at Cherryville Junction with the train engine, a J15, running tender first. The situation nowadays is different, with so few turntables around.

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

Even with tank engines, crews always preferred chimney-first working. There was no real reason beyond that other than the fact that (fairly obviously!) the weather more often than not is unfavourable to tender-first operation!

A former driver, long gone to his reward, told me once of a journey from Sligo to Ennis with empty cattle vans for a fair the following day. For some reason (which escapes me) they  had to work tender first and it was rainy and windy. By Tubbercurry he (firing) and his driver were drenched to the skin and shivering with the cold.

And they still had to get to Ennis!

He was an exceptionally unhappy bunny. Upon dropping the trucks in Ennis, he still had to go light engine to Limerick Junction and bunk overnight - in wet clothes.

Into a very spartan bed, and home to Tuam shed in damp clothes in the brake van of the Limerick / Sligo goods the next day.

We can look back at this stuff, but ordeals like that - and by any standards, even in austere 1940 or 41, when this happened - it WAS an ordeal.

Thank gawd for trade unions and hard-won modern workers rights….

Senior got as far as Killeshandra only once. Time was ticking on and it was a nice enough day. They had a G2 class 2.4.0.

Despite a short and leisurely trip back to Cavan, the crew insisted on turning the loco.

[David Holman]

Done the Ring of Kerry three times, each on a (very) soft day. Can't have been much fun on the Valencia Harbour line, one of the few without a turntable - or very much else for that matter! At least the nearest one was only a few miles away.

[StevieB]

I did wonder if the weather might play a part in the desire to run chimney first. As you say, running tender first with no protection through a storm would have been decidedly unpleasant. Thanks.

Stephen

[Mayner]

Traditionally the majority of Irish railways broad and narrow religiously turned their tank locos to run chimney 1st at the end of the journey. One of the factors is that some of the steam classes may have ran seadier and possibly faster running chimney first, many steam classes had a leading bogie or truck to help ease a loco into a curve and the valve gear may have been set up to allow a loco to run faster chimney first. 

The principal exceptions on the narrow gauge appear to have been the CBPR 2-4-2T which may not have been provided with turntables in narrow gauge days and the large'modern' Donegal (2-6-4T & 4-8-4T and Swilly 4-8-4T there does not appear to have been a loco turntable at Killybegs on the Donegal the later turntable was provided for turning railcars.

On the Broad Gauge the DSER 2-4-2T & 4-4-2T appear to have been turned to run chinney first on Dubin subrban trains, though locos used on Amien St-Westland Row-Dunlaoire workings may have run bunker 1st

The NCC/UTA WT/Jeeps appear to be equally capable of running at high speed chimney or bunker 1st but the locos were running chimney 1st in most photos of WT hauled passenger trains in UTA days, but there is a 1966 daytime photo of WT 56 running bunker 1st substituting for an MPD railcar on the CIE Derry freight, there is also a photo of a bunker 1st No4 on a PW train waiting to pass a 70 Class hauled passenger train on the Larne line.

[minister_for_hardship]

The Clogher Valley ran its locos a**e about face by design.

I've seen a small number of photos of Muskerry locos captured running bunker first into Western Road.

[amdaley]

6 hours ago, David Holman said:

Done the Ring of Kerry three times, each on a (very) soft day. Can't have been much fun on the Valencia Harbour line, one of the few without a turntable - or very much else for that matter! At least the nearest one was only a few miles away.

Yes, about 3 miles to Cahersiveen station.

Here's a photo on the terminus at Reenard Point.

You can see Valentia Island in the background.

By Robert French - No restrictions, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=32378476

Edited October 31 by amdaley

[Colin_McLeod]

@amdaley Robert French was my Great Great Grandfather, his Granddaughter Natalie Marion French being my Father's Stepmother.

 

I have a very interesting album of his photos taken in various towns around Ireland.

[amdaley]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

@amdaley Robert French was my Great Great Grandfather, his Granddaughter Natalie Marion French being my Father's Stepmother.

 

I have a very interesting album of his photos taken in various towns around Ireland.

That's some history there 

[Mike 84C]

Tender first running was very unpleasant, NOTHING worse than any ex Western engine on a cold raining day. just nowhere to get away from the elements in those cabs. Even engines with high tenders were not much better as the wind would blow through the tender doors under the shovel like a gale. When I drove on the Festiniog there were some of the hair shirt brigade who thought it great fun to take the tender cab off Linda, I just thought they were playing trains.

[minister_for_hardship]

The crews on the RPSI look like the Lyons Tea Minstrels after a spell of tender first running.

[Mike 84C]

Using the slacker pipe was always a good plan but its difficult to avoid getting wet when running tender first, a sort of angled line of splash across the coal often worked. being hit in the face by fling slack or small coal is not pleasant. Going home as dirty as possible was not the name of the game and you did get a bit of derision/dark humour in the crew mess room, which was where you normally washed up. Or in a bucket on the engine.  Writing this now it all seems so crude and with no regard for your employees but that's just the way it was. At least we did'nt have to sleep in damp beds and damp clothes in hostels. No lodging turns at our depot.

[airfixfan]

Correct Correct about Killybegs

[gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

Apart from the unpleasant conditions for the locomotive crew, especially in cold or bad weather, the main reason is stability at speed and holding the road with regard tyre to rail dynamics.

The thing to understand about tenders is that when fully loaded they are under-sprung and when empty are be correspondingly over-sprung. The road springs over the axle boxes are generally about right when the tender is half loaded with coal and two thirds water.

Should you look a weight diagrams for tenders you will see the disparity between tare and fully laden weights and it is considerable, usually approaching 50%.

For example a tender that may weigh 42 tons in full working order that carries 5 tons of coal and 3500 gallons of water will have a tare weight of 21.3 tons, the 3500 gallons of water accounting for 15.7 tons of the total load with the coal the other 5 tons. Generally a tender may be allowed to run almost out of coal but would always have between 750-1000 gallons of water to, a, keep the boiler topped up and, b, as ballast for the tender which would be between 3.4 tons and 4.5tons of water.

Assuming the axle loads to be equal, although the centre axle was generally a slight lighter by a ton or so, then the fully laden figures would be 14 tons and the tare loading would be 7.1 tons. With another 3.5 tons of water and a ton of coal this puts the axle loadings up to around 8.6 tons.

Locomotives were as a result restricted in speed travelling tender first to around 40-45  mph to avoid derailment due to the poor riding nature of unladen tenders. I'm sure this consideration was not always adhered to at all times however my experience of operating steam locomotives on the mainlines in the UK the speed restrictions are adhered to most strictly for the above reasons.

https://www.deviantart.com/kanetakerfan701/art/Inside-Flying-Scotsman-s-Cab-959084864

Have a look at the peed restrictions above the drivers seat top left.

Gibbo.

[Andy Cundick]

8 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Correct Correct about Killybegs

As far as i'm aware they usually turned the locos at Killybegs the third turntable would certainly be up to it being a Class 5 set of frames the Letterkenny line ran bunker first to Strabane in latter years as Letterkennys turntable was getting a bit frail.The Londonderry line as ran bunker first after 1937 as the the turntable from there was transferred to Rossnowlagh for the railcars.Andy.

[airfixfan]

Seems lots of photos in 1950s of locos bunker first from Killybegs. Turntable at Letterkenny still there at the end

[Mayner]

50 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Seems lots of photos in 1950s of locos bunker first from Killybegs. Turntable at Letterkenny still there at the end

I think there is a story in E M Patterson's Donegal book of a loco on a coal train departing Killybegs bunker 1st and demolishing the loco shed.  The crew though they were on the main line and did not realise they were on the headshunt/locoshed road. There is also a photo in the same book of a loco running bunker 1st on an Orange Order specail at Bruckless on the Killybegs line.

[Broithe]

Let's be fair here.

If any of us were having to expose our tender end to particularly inclement weather, we would probably get a bit distracted, too.

[airfixfan]

Columbkille in light steam took out Killybegs loxo shed in October 1957