IRM Latest! The High Queens of Ireland - IRM Celebrates 10th Birthday With GSR 800s

[Galteemore]

30 minutes ago, Colin R said:

It just occurred to me that I should have asked if the Queens will convert to 21mm Gauge?

They probably can. In the same way you can fit wheels to a tomato. But it will be messy, and frustrating. You will have to rebuild it from the bottom up, and in all likelihood end up grinding away parts of the bodywork - damaging an exquisite factory finish in the process. Better off buying an SSM kit if 21mm is the plan. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Galteemore

[Flying Snail]

25 minutes ago, Colin R said:

It just occurred to me that I should have asked if the Queens will convert to 21mm Gauge?

If they could be re-gauged to 21mm, IRM/AS would have stated it in the specification/common features for the loco. They haven't stated it, so I'd be highly surprised if its possible - especially with that valve gear.

(if you take a look at the Hunslet on their web page you'll find confirmation that it can be re-gauged. No such confirmation for the 800)

Edited 11 hours ago by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

They probably can. In the same way you can fit wheels to a tomato. But it will be messy, and frustrating. You will have to rebuild it from the bottom up, and in all likelihood end up grinding it away parts of the bodywork - damaging an exquisite factory finish in the process. Better off buying an SSM kit if 21mm is the plan. 

That's a wonderful mental image!

With the demise of Markits and the long delays at Ultrascale, I wonder whether this type of wheel be suitable for the 21mm gauge conversion?

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Can’t see to many people being too annoyed about lack of 21mm though. At the end of the day, as has been pointed out the SSM version is still out there. 

[Colin R]

Thanks Guys

I have spoken to IRM and cancelled my order. I will give it a few days and then place an order for an SSM kit

Colin

[Northroader]

So, I found a decent tomato, but when I started to put the wheels on it, the greengrocer come out and started hitting me…

what’s next then, lads?

[Colin R]

I think some of the smaller Irish 3ft gauge stock that could also run on 009 might be a good toe in the water exercise

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

It just occurred to me that I should have asked if the Queens will convert to 21mm Gauge?

Accurascale's first RTR steam engine - the GW Manor - isn't P4-compatible, so I wouldn't expect the IRM RTR steam approach to be any different as regards 21mm.

That leaves the SSM kit. You know you want to. 

[leslie10646]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

So, I found a decent tomato, but when I started to put the wheels on it, the greengrocer come out and started hitting me…

what’s next then, lads?

Ah, yes. A locomotive which can get to Derry, Portrush, Dublin, Cork, Tralee to name a few - not restricted to the Cork main line.

The choice by IRM seemed incomprehensible (I thought it was April the First!) until the penny dropped.

It's after the market of rich, older Englishmen who buy locos to put in a glass case .....

I await the real promised second Irish steam loco, but with the timelines stated, I'll probably be helping Drew Donaldson to run  his layout in "Another Place" before it appears.

Back to building Portadown's Island Platform.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

I think some of the smaller Irish 3ft gauge stock that could also run on 009 might be a good toe in the water exercise

I recall speaking with a (long defunct) small manufacturer almost forty years ago who was keen to do easy-to-make plastic kits of Irish narrow gauge to run on 12mm track.

He was considering offering a Donegal class 5, which would have been amazing.

Sadly, then as now, he did the sums and walked away…..!

 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

I don’t think 009 Irish stuff ready to run is worth it yet. Niche within a niche within a niche 

 

4 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

It's after the market of rich, older Englishmen who buy locos to put in a glass case .....

It is slightly, but to be fair if the Irish market is stagnating/slowing. Then why not try and market towards those across the pond. If anything will tempt them it’s the 800s! 

[leslie10646]

17 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I don’t think 009 Irish stuff ready to run is worth it yet. Niche within a niche within a niche 

 

It is slightly, but to be fair if the Irish market is stagnating/slowing. Then why not try and market towards those across the pond. If anything will tempt them it’s the 800s! 

Hi WCR

You're partly right, but it's a fact that I only know about half a dozen people who have seen an 800 running, otherwise it was in the museum. Expand that to our fellow (more numerous) enthusiasts on the Big Island, and the number is vanishingly small.

One of the RPSI's CLASS representatives would have been even more attractive to those of us modelling Irish railways and they are even better known in the UK and Worldwide.

Happily, to help fill MY glass case, Accurscale has produced other attractive locos, including, dare I admit it, their diesels and electrics. I'm off to see if a Class 92 which was on sale at a really bargain price at Basingstoke remains unsold!

 

[Niles]

There's a school of thought that the 800s did as much for the GSR in terms of PR and marketing than they did in terms of engineering, I suspect this will be the same for IRM and hopefully our little corner of the hobby in general.

Two days in and I'm still deliberating which version of 802 to go for, though as I said to @jhb171achill yesterday isn't it a great position to be in, deliberating 'which' 802 to get.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

I recall speaking with a (long defunct) small manufacturer almost forty years ago who was keen to do easy-to-make plastic kits of Irish narrow gauge to run on 12mm track.

He was considering offering a Donegal class 5, which would have been amazing.

Sadly, then as now, he did the sums and walked away…..!

Ninelines subsequently produced a small number of CDR and T&D wagon and van kits in both 009 and 00n3. They are supposedly still available.

I've been looking, on and off, at something even smaller - the Guinness Geoghegan 0-4-0s. I have drawings. It looks like all kinds of madness for scratchbuilding.

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Niles said:

There's a school of thought that the 800s did as much for the GSR in terms of PR and marketing than they did in terms of engineering, I suspect this will be the same for IRM and hopefully our little corner of the hobby in general.

Two days in and I'm still deliberating which version of 802 to go for, though as I said to @jhb171achill yesterday isn't it a great position to be in, deliberating 'which' 802 to get.

It's interesting that on the RMweb side of the water, several people have asked what carriages they can buy to go with their 800. I have made some suggestions but this seems to be a gap that IRM should consider, even if it's a partnership with another manufacturer (like the Esso tanks) to provide some GB coaches in GSR livery?

[minister_for_hardship]

I'm looking at getting GS livery as outshopped, partly as getting rtr GSR *anything* is hens teeth plus partly I'd rather remember them in terms of being full of promise before world events put paid to that. In their final years they went out on a whimper rather than a bang.

[Colin R]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

I recall speaking with a (long defunct) small manufacturer almost forty years ago who was keen to do easy-to-make plastic kits of Irish narrow gauge to run on 12mm track.

He was considering offering a Donegal class 5, which would have been amazing.

Sadly, then as now, he did the sums and walked away…..!

 

 

Admittedly, there is now a lot of Irish narrow gauge in kit form from Worsley, that said, however, this is one of those chicken and egg situations, I know 00n3 modellers who have splashed out on a new Hornby TT120 scale 08 chassis the biggest draw back to the size/scale is the lack of a commercial locomotive chassis.

There are two items of narrow gauge which I think would work for most people, they are 1. the West Clare bogie Diesel or 2. the West Clare/Donegal Railcar, there is of course one outstanding NG loco and wagon set that you could put on a modern day layout and that would be a Wagonmaster and a train of Peat wagons, it could even be done as a complete roundy roundy layout with a loco and say 3 peat wagons. Then later on you could introduce a railcar. Would that work? I don't know, but I would have one if it was made.

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Narrow gauge RTR is now growing quite rapidly in both 009 and what Bachmann are calling NG7 (formerly O-16.5), but is focusing on prototypes around 2' gauge, mostly Welsh. With the growth of TT120, the route to 00n3 is perhaps becoming a bit easier but I imagine it will be some years/decades before it catches up with 009. American 3' gauge modelling is well established but of course that's in HO or 1/4" scale.

Edited 5 hours ago by Mol_PMB
correction.

[jhb171achill]

The thing about rolling stock for the 800 class is this.

There was no single uniform train of nice sleek new Bredins to go with them.

The Bredin stock was introduced before the 800s were, and examples of these were already running, mixed in with other older types, behind 400s, 500s and Woolwiches, and various 4.4.0s, and had been for a few years.

Add to that the fact that no brand new dining cars or mail vans were built to "match", so the typical heavy mail trains that the 800s were set to work on, would from day one have had quite an eclectic - and necessity-driven - array of stuff behind it.

1.  Dining cars were usually old 1900-1910 GSWR ones.

2.  Mail vans ditto - but also older ones than that, and both bogie and six-wheeled.

3.  Passenger brakes - there were some "Bredin" ones - full bogies. See the Studio Scale Models kit of a full bogie mail brake. The Hattons Genesis full six-wheel passenger brake is suitable too, but if you want it to be in GSR era, buy one in LMS maroon and alter the lettering. In CIE green, better the darker version - by the time the lighter green livery started, 800s were rarely used.

4.  Thirds and compostites - NOW we're on to the Bredins; see the SSM kits again.

5.  Thirds and composites - also there would have been older, mostly ex-GSWR side corridor types.

6.  Firsts - there were Bredin ones - SSM again - but also many older wooden bodied ones like the RPSI's preserved no. 1142, but no suitable model exists to convert one of these from.

Cheaper option - get LMS coaches in LMS livery, paint the silver or light grey roofs a slightly darker grey and doctor the lettering on them to be more GSR than LMS!

In summary, there's little on the market RIGHT now that is suitable, but who can tell what the future holds!

 

[leslie10646]

18 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I'm looking at getting GS livery as outshopped, partly as getting rtr GSR *anything* is hens teeth plus partly I'd rather remember them in terms of being full of promise before world events put paid to that. In their final years they went out on a whimper rather than a bang.

Ah yes, Minister, but for Chamberlain's fit of pique (in guaranteeing Poland) over the little Austrian's annexation of the rest of Czechoskavakia (itself an unnatural construct arising out of the disaster of Versailles) - there might have been no Emergency and we might have discovered if the 800s REALLY could run for miles and miles at 80mph on the Cork Mainline. (And I might have an interest in them like my unswerving adoration for all things Bulleid - whose Pacifics did just that sort of running).

Unhappily, like my all-time favourites, the GNR(I)'s VS Class, they had a very short working life at the top level.

So, I agree with you, if you are going to buy this museum engine, buy it as it was meant to be!

[DJ Dangerous]

38 minutes ago, Niles said:

Two days in and I'm still deliberating which version of 802 to go for, though as I said to @jhb171achill yesterday isn't it a great position to be in, deliberating 'which' 802 to get.

All of them!!!

I understand why some folk may be put off, but I’m over the moon.

I’ve wanted an 800 Class for years, and years, and years, but never had the time, energy nor skills to tackle a kit.

Working a lot, maybe too much, puts me firmly in the “box opener” and “display case” brigades, but it is what it is. The variety in the hobby keeps it rich.

I’ll place an order for one, maybe even two, at the weekend, and they will definitely be highly likely to spend the first twenty years of their lives looking gorgeous and not doing much.

Can’t believe that we finally have one of these!

Thank you, IRM, and Happy Birthday!

Now, about that 1980’s DART for your fifteenth birthday…..

[Galteemore]

37 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

It's interesting that on the RMweb side of the water, several people have asked what carriages they can buy to go with their 800. I have made some suggestions but this seems to be a gap that IRM should consider, even if it's a partnership with another manufacturer (like the Esso tanks) to provide some GB coaches in GSR livery?

You could do a lot worse than stick a mixed bag of LMS stock in period III livery behind it. The colour won’t be far off, and the varied rooflines/profiles will give the apposite effect. 

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

You could do a lot worse than stick a mixed bag of LMS stock in period III livery behind it. The colour won’t be far off, and the varied rooflines/profiles will give the apposite effect. 

That's pretty much what I suggested on RMweb!

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

That's pretty much what I suggested on RMweb!

Indeed.

The post-1933 GSR livery, well established by the time the 800s saw the light of day, was actually pretty much exactly the same as the LMS. So, just rub off the LMS crest, and add a GSR one (Studio Scale models supply them), and slightly larger class numerals on doors, paint coach ends black instead of maroon, make the roofs a slightly darker grey, and away ye go! Put a Hattons Genesis six-wheel full brake in maroon (they sell LMS liveried ones - dunno if they still have them) at the back. SSM also do Bredin kits.

[Mol_PMB]

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me:

http://www.studio-scale-models.com

For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work...

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml

... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique).

Was there a wider range available in the past?

[Niles]

I wonder was the livery influenced by the fact that the LMS had a seat on the GSR board through its LNWR/DSER stake?

[jhb171achill]

38 minutes ago, Niles said:

I wonder was the livery influenced by the fact that the LMS had a seat on the GSR board through its LNWR/DSER stake?

Could have been.... the BCDR used the same sort of shade too for a while. So, English LMS-area folks would have visited here and found the entire NCC, BCDR & GSR carrying the same maroon; in the case of the NCC & GSR same lining style too!

46 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me:

http://www.studio-scale-models.com

For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work...

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml

... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique).

Was there a wider range available in the past?

Yes - there are two. I suggest contacting him, as i also can't get into his website, yet i was in it the other day. Must be a temporary glitch.

Just got into it. Only the van - he must have sold out of the others. But that van is as good as a must for a Cork mails train, right up to the 1970s!

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me:

http://www.studio-scale-models.com

For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work...

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml

... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique).

Was there a wider range available in the past?

Yes. There's at least two other SSM Bredin kits, a First and a Third.

Best alert @Weshty to the website problems.

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I'm looking at getting GS livery as outshopped, partly as getting rtr GSR *anything* is hens teeth plus partly I'd rather remember them in terms of being full of promise before world events put paid to that. In their final years they went out on a whimper rather than a bang.

This is a good point i guess I hadn’t thought of. considering they were originally supposed to be Pacific’s, and much more then just the 3. They certainly would have been nice PR. A photo of one going over the bridge in mallow might have been a good propaganda picture! 
 

Though for me. A failed experiment is as interesting as a superb success if not more so. Perhaps that’s why that mid green tailte is calling to me…

 

Here is a small video for the dieselites  out there who need to be converted 

 

[Galteemore]

Given that the 800 class are essentially the 1937 constitution in locomotive form, there’s a certain delicious irony that she’s ended up within shouting distance of Stormont. In the - highly likely - event that the RPSI mogul never steams on the main line, painting it up as 99 ‘King George VI’ and plonking it beside 800 would be a lovely illustration of how the railways echoed the divided nature of Irish society in the 30s.

[Horsetan]

22 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Given that the 800 class are essentially the 1937 constitution in locomotive form, there’s a certain delicious irony that she’s ended up within shouting distance of Stormont. In the - highly likely - event that the RPSI mogul never steams on the main line, painting it up as 99 ‘King George VI’ and plonking it beside 800 would be a lovely illustration of how the railways echoed the divided nature of Irish society in the 30s.

Sure ye might as well go the extra mile and paint the thing orange.

[minister_for_hardship]

34 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Given that the 800 class are essentially the 1937 constitution in locomotive form

Surprising they didn't name them Jesus, Mary and Joseph, or after a few 'wholesome' Irish saints instead of after pagan women!

Apart from the GS pr dept and railway nuts, was there much fanfare at their launch nationally?

Edited 1 hour ago by minister_for_hardship

[Westcorkrailway]

25 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Surprising they didn't name them Jesus, Mary and Joseph, or after a few 'wholesome' Irish saints instead of after pagan women!

Apart from the GS pr dept and railway nuts, was there much fanfare at their launch nationally?

The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit !

[Galteemore]

38 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Surprising they didn't name them Jesus, Mary and Joseph, or after a few 'wholesome' Irish saints instead of after pagan women!

Apart from the GS pr dept and railway nuts, was there much fanfare at their launch nationally?

The real excitement for the Irish Govt prewar railway-wise was in 1931 with the Drumm trains which were seen as world leading. The British Pathe site has a lovely little vid of WT Cosgrave taking a trip with Dr Drumm. I’m not sure if the 800s were ever launched officially or just gradually segued into service. McMahon and Clements certainly draw attention to the impact that they had on GSR staff morale. And when important VIP trains needed run in the 40s they were front and centre.

Edited 53 minutes ago by Galteemore

[leslie10646]

31 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit !

Surely to make the thing properly Catholic, they would have been named in LATIN, so we'd have had a loco named for the current Notts Forest Manager? No wonder they're above Spurs  - eh Dave B?