IRM Latest! The High Queens of Ireland - IRM Celebrates 10th Birthday With GSR 800s

[Patrick Davey]

On 16/3/2025 at 5:15 PM, Noel said:

I've been in hospital for a week so havent been near t'internet and missed this. Wow this is a stellar announcement. No wonder the recent intereest on FB in the Bachmann CIE coaches. Never seen 800 run myself but its a must have as it was the iconic mainlune express loco in Ireland on the Cork-Dublin line. Something to look forward to for next year. 800 was more powerful that the GWR castle class.

Hope you're ok now Noel.

[Mike 84C]

Comparing an 800 with a Manor is a bit like comparing Terriers and a Great Dane, both are dogs!  Manors were not big engines but could punch way above their weight.  Compare an 800 with a Castle, Lord Nelson or a rebuilt Scot would be fair. Sadly that front view makes the 800 look rather narrow gauge which it is.  

[jhb171achill]

On 11/3/2025 at 9:17 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

Exactly. Perhaps somone using Ral colours extracted from the hattons coaches/800 one could repaint appropriate British stock. Thats what I did for years before the genesis coaches and it was perfect

 

im sure I’ve seen photos of CIE full brake 6 wheelers running behind 800

Yes, you have. Only full brakes, though, or mail vehicles.

The 800 class would never have pulled passenger-carrying six-wheelers, as these were gone from main line expresses by 1939.

[Horsetan]

On 18/3/2025 at 11:51 AM, Mike 84C said:

.... Sadly that front view makes the 800 look rather narrow gauge which it is.  

Might as well have outside frames!

[Patrick Davey]

Despite my constant hints imploring IRM to produce a steam loco, the 800s are not quite in my area of interest although I am certainly following this thread with enthusiasm.

It was very encouraging to hear that early sales have been so good, it would be interesting to see an updated diagram of how sales are progressing, like IRM did for the A class - that was very skilled promotion I thought!

[GSR 800]

3 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

Despite my constant hints imploring IRM to produce a steam loco, the 800s are not quite in my area of interest although I am certainly following this thread with enthusiasm.

It was very encouraging to hear that early sales have been so good, it would be interesting to see an updated diagram of how sales are progressing, like IRM did for the A class - that was very skilled promotion I thought!

Some wild out there speculation here...look away if that's offends..

Accurascale started off steam with a 4-6-0 in the form of a Manor. Now we've an 800 en route on the IRM side

Considering the Buckjumpers and Panniers, one wonders if that will translate to an Irish tank engine?

One would assume the WT would be the go-to for tank engines, but then you have the ubiquitous T2s and J26s, too.

The latter I think has a very good case for itself, they were very widely travelled indeed! There's no midland bias going on at all...

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Some wild out there speculation here...look away if that's offends..

Accurascale started off steam with a 4-6-0 in the form of a Manor. Now we've an 800 en route on the IRM side

Considering the Buckjumpers and Panniers, one wonders if that will translate to an Irish tank engine?

One would assume the WT would be the go-to for tank engines, but then you have the ubiquitous T2s and J26s, too.

The latter I think has a very good case for itself, they were very widely travelled indeed! There's no midland bias going on at all...

 

 

Question: have IRM / AS ever produced a model of a loco class that no longer exists? 
I’m thinking in relation to which steam prototypes might be tackled in future. 
My impression, maybe wrong, is that scanning locos and close inspection of small details is part of their process, along with studying drawings and photos. 
I suppose there are some variants (e.g. some Buckjumpers, and the Class 30s) that don’t survive and must have been based on other sources. 

[GSR 800]

37 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Question: have IRM / AS ever produced a model of a loco class that no longer exists? 
I’m thinking in relation to which steam prototypes might be tackled in future. 
My impression, maybe wrong, is that scanning locos and close inspection of small details is part of their process, along with studying drawings and photos. 
I suppose there are some variants (e.g. some Buckjumpers, and the Class 30s) that don’t survive and must have been based on other sources. 

One of the Buckjumpers survives, there are dozens of surviving 31s (which are the reengined 30s iirc?)

Nothing in terms of motive power on the Midland survives!

 

[Mol_PMB]

14 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

One of the Buckjumpers survives, there are dozens of surviving 31s (which are the reengined 30s iirc?)

Nothing in terms of motive power on the Midland survives!

 

Yes, that was my point!

[Horsetan]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Question: have IRM / AS ever produced a model of a loco class that no longer exists? 
I’m thinking in relation to which steam prototypes might be tackled in future. 
My impression, maybe wrong, is that scanning locos and close inspection of small details is part of their process, along with studying drawings and photos. 

Oddly enough, they could do worse than try a Woolwich Mogul - it might be possible to obtain permission to scan the sole surviving N (31874) and one of the new-build Us (31618 or 31638) as a starting point for the 372/K1 and 393/K1a.

The resulting scans would require modification:

- engine and tender frames are 6 inches wider

- centre section of buffer beams correspondingly wider, as is smokebox saddle 

- overall width over engine and tender footplate is wider by same measurement (3 inches extra per side); similar principles apply for cylinders and motion

- 393/K1a shares same 7'3" x 8'3" wheelbase as 372/K1 (i.e. not the same as SR "U" which was 7'3" x 7'9")

[Mol_PMB]

23 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Oddly enough, they could do worse than try a Woolwich Mogul - it might be possible to obtain permission to scan the sole surviving N (31874) and one of the new-build Us (31618 or 31638) as a starting point for the 372/K1 and 393/K1a.

The resulting scans would require modification:

- engine and tender frames are 6 inches wider

- centre section of buffer beams correspondingly wider, as is smokebox saddle 

- overall width over engine and tender footplate is wider by same measurement (3 inches extra per side); similar principles apply for cylinders and motion

- 393/K1a shares same 7'3" x 8'3" wheelbase as 372/K1 (i.e. not the same as SR "U" which was 7'3" x 7'9")

The issue is of course that the largest market segment is 16.5mm gauge and therefore the engine and tender frames would need to be be 6" narrower, not wider!

The ground has been covered by Bachmann already, admittedly some years ago. If IRM / AS chose to do an up-to-date model I expect they would cover both the GB and Irish variants but given the respective market sizes would there be a realistic prospect of the Irish one actually being wider? 

[Horsetan]

 

17 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

The issue is of course that the largest market segment is 16.5mm gauge and therefore the engine and tender frames would need to be be 6" narrower, not wider!

The ground has been covered by Bachmann already, admittedly some years ago. If IRM / AS chose to do an up-to-date model I expect they would cover both the GB and Irish variants but given the respective market sizes would there be a realistic prospect of the Irish one actually being wider? 

The Bachmann one is unfortunately too narrow over the footplate. Once you notice the width, you can't "unsee" it.

If it's any consolation, even Tony Miles got it wrong on his scratchbuilt Woolwich for Adavoyle

Edited Tuesday at 12:33 by Horsetan

[Colin R]

5 hours ago, Horsetan said:

 

The Bachmann one is unfortunately too narrow over the footplate. Once you notice the width, you can't "unsee" it.

If it's any consolation, even Tony Miles got it wrong on his scratchbuilt Woolwich for Adavoyle

I do have in the collection box two white metal Woolwich kits that I bought at the time to convert over to Irish 5ft 3 inch. Cutting them down the middle and then adding the 2mm to the finished width might be possible.

The only thing is I still need is more information before I do that.

Edited Tuesday at 17:45 by Colin R

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

...The only thing is I still need is more information before I do that.

Right down the middle.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Horsetan said:

Right down the middle.

Oval boiler and all

[Colin R]

Just now, Mol_PMB said:

Oval boiler and all

Well, that is the sort of thing I was wondering about.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Colin R said:

Well, that is the sort of thing I was wondering about.

Not an oval boiler! But does the cab get wider, and if it does then the cab front sheet would need replacing so it still meets the sides of the firebox which are the same width as the standard gauge version. So it’s a little more complex as you indicate. 

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Not an oval boiler! But does the cab get wider, and if it does then the cab front sheet would need replacing so it still meets the sides of the firebox which are the same width as the standard gauge version. So it’s a little more complex as you indicate. 

No, the cab was kept at same width as the Southern Ns and Us. That's why there was a considerable width of footplate available alongside the Woolwich cabsides.

Edited Tuesday at 19:00 by Horsetan

[Mayner]

The Accurascale/IRM 800 appears to be primarily aimed at modellers who are primarily interested in buying a prestigious express locomotive, not unlike Hornby Dublo's post WW11  focus on express passenger locos of the Big 4 and British Trix late 60-70s production of Gresley Pacifics, Western Diesel & AL1 25Kv Electric.

The 800 also fits in with Accurascale production of the Brush Class 89 a prestigious one off prototype.

A GNR Compound would appear to have a similar appeal to an 800 and a potential popular choice with the GN having a strong following among enthusiasts and modellers in the North East of Ireland. The RPSI also carried out a digital scan of their loco fleet (10-15 years ago) to encourage manufactures to produce a model/models of locos in their care.

Where would this potentially leave use with a potential model of a less prestigious tank locomotive that would also appeal to British outline modellers in order to minimise development/tooling costs with Hornby and Bachmann already producing a Jinty how about an Industrial steam loco that was used in both Ireland and the British "Mainland" 

Curiously Fenit Harbour Commissioners Hunslet "Shamrock"  later GSWR/GSR/CIE 299 just might fit the bill particularly if Accurascale were to bring out an O Gauge version .  The loco was basically a standard Hunslet design used by industry and civil construction in the UK. The GSWR also inherited a similar though slightly larger loco 'Erin" from the Waterford & Wexford Railway which was allocated but never carried the GSWR No 300

 

I declare an interest because I have been toying for the past 10 years with the idea of replacing my 4mm stuff with a simple O gauge layout with 1-2 locos a couple of coaches and about a dozen wagons.

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The Accurascale/IRM 800 appears to be primarily aimed at modellers who are primarily interested in buying a prestigious express locomotive, not unlike Hornby Dublo's post WW11  focus on express passenger locos of the Big 4 and British Trix late 60-70s production of Gresley Pacifics, Western Diesel & AL1 25Kv Electric.

The 800 also fits in with Accurascale production of the Brush Class 89 a prestigious one off prototype.

A GNR Compound would appear to have a similar appeal to an 800 and a potential popular choice with the GN having a strong following among enthusiasts and modellers in the North East of Ireland. The RPSI also carried out a digital scan of their loco fleet (10-15 years ago) to encourage manufactures to produce a model/models of locos in their care.

Where would this potentially leave use with a potential model of a less prestigious tank locomotive that would also appeal to British outline modellers in order to minimise development/tooling costs with Hornby and Bachmann already producing a Jinty how about an Industrial steam loco that was used in both Ireland and the British "Mainland" 

Curiously Fenit Harbour Commissioners Hunslet "Shamrock"  later GSWR/GSR/CIE 299 just might fit the bill particularly if Accurascale were to bring out an O Gauge version .  The loco was basically a standard Hunslet design used by industry and civil construction in the UK. The GSWR also inherited a similar though slightly larger loco 'Erin" from the Waterford & Wexford Railway which was allocated but never carried the GSWR No 300

 

I declare an interest because I have been toying for the past 10 years with the idea of replacing my 4mm stuff with a simple O gauge layout with 1-2 locos a couple of coaches and about a dozen wagons.

Not as outlandish an idea as it might seem to some, by any means - 00 Works sold out their (admittedly, probably very small run of) the West Cork 472 class saddle tanks, about as obsure as you could get. And they made it vaiable as with a few detail alterations, it "became" several british prototypes too.

[Galteemore]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

The Accurascale/IRM 800 appears to be primarily aimed at modellers who are primarily interested in buying a prestigious express locomotive, not unlike Hornby Dublo's post WW11  focus on express passenger locos of the Big 4 and British Trix late 60-70s production of Gresley Pacifics, Western Diesel & AL1 25Kv Electric.

The 800 also fits in with Accurascale production of the Brush Class 89 a prestigious one off prototype.

A GNR Compound would appear to have a similar appeal to an 800 and a potential popular choice with the GN having a strong following among enthusiasts and modellers in the North East of Ireland. The RPSI also carried out a digital scan of their loco fleet (10-15 years ago) to encourage manufactures to produce a model/models of locos in their care.

Where would this potentially leave use with a potential model of a less prestigious tank locomotive that would also appeal to British outline modellers in order to minimise development/tooling costs with Hornby and Bachmann already producing a Jinty how about an Industrial steam loco that was used in both Ireland and the British "Mainland" 

Curiously Fenit Harbour Commissioners Hunslet "Shamrock"  later GSWR/GSR/CIE 299 just might fit the bill particularly if Accurascale were to bring out an O Gauge version .  The loco was basically a standard Hunslet design used by industry and civil construction in the UK. The GSWR also inherited a similar though slightly larger loco 'Erin" from the Waterford & Wexford Railway which was allocated but never carried the GSWR No 300

 

I declare an interest because I have been toying for the past 10 years with the idea of replacing my 4mm stuff with a simple O gauge layout with 1-2 locos a couple of coaches and about a dozen wagons.

There’s been an upsurge in small O gauge layouts driven by the availability of small RTR locos such as the Minerva Manning Wardle - pic below. Indeed, I actually had one of these on pre-order before I threw away all my GB outline ideas and went 5’3”. A lot of people in GB have have ‘light railway’ style layouts to allow a variety of stock. Such a small tank would probably sell well to this market. 
 

Edited Wednesday at 05:54 by Galteemore

[Mol_PMB]

With no splashers or outside cylinders, ‘Shamrock’ might be an easier conversion to 21mm than most kettles. 
It survived until 1957 latterly at Rocksavage but I don’t think it worked much (at all?) in the last few years. 

The Manchester Ship Canal (one of my other modelling interests) also had some very similar Hunslets in the early years. However, there were a host of detail differences among these locos which would make them challenging to produce accurately in RTR.

 

 

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Not as outlandish an idea as it might seem to some, by any means - 00 Works sold out their (admittedly, probably very small run of) the West Cork 472 class saddle tanks, about as obsure as you could get. And they made it vaiable as with a few detail alterations, it "became" several british prototypes too.

I made the suggestion quite tongue in cheek as I am quite unlikely to buy a rtr model of 299, more likely to enjoy assembling the Alphagraphix kit version of the loco if I ever move up to O Scale. 

I don't think the relative obscurity or the actual use of the prototype has any real effect on the potential volume of sales to an 'average modeller" who wants to buy an "Irish Steam" loco particularly if the price is kept at an affordable level by leveraging off an existing British Outline model as witnessed by Hornby  "Irish" Trainset GWR 0-4-0T, Hornby & Bachmann UTA & NCC Jinties, OO & O Gauge 'Woolwich' Southern Moguls.

Interestingly the OO Works West Cork Saddle Tanks were a variant of their existing LSWR 330 Class Beyer Peacock saddle tanks a popular loco among British Outline locos in addition to the LSWR and Southern an number of these locos were used on the Kent and East Sussex and East Kent Light Railways and also into industrial usage.

Producing a model of a specific small/medium tank/tender loco is likely to be a significant risk to a manufacture due to the large number of small classes leveraging off an existing British model largely eliminates this risk.

While the 12 ex-Midland Small Tanks were somewhat spread around in GSR/CIE days with examples eventually working on the Waterford & Tramore, Shillelagh Branch (closed 47?) West Cork system and Tralee & Fenit (redundant from Waterford & Tramore late 50s) they were practically unknown on the southern where the J11 was the dominant Shunting Banking loco.

Although the GSR built a prototype suburban/mixed traffic 2-6-2T 850 this loco remained unique, South Eastern suburban services were worked mainly by ex-DSER 4-4-2T and 2-4-2T and 5 GSR 0-6-2Ts to the end of steam, while Cork-Cobh services relied on GSWR 4-4-2T and 2-4-2T.  While not working suburban services as such Limerick retained a variety of ex-WLWR 2-4-2T, 4-4-2T and 0-4-4T locos for branch line and local services some of the ex-WLWR locos migrated to the West Cork.

I suppose the West Cork 4-6-0s 6 surviving towards the end of steam could be considered a 'standard' Class, apart from their work in West Cork one was allocated almost continuously to Dublin-Bray suburban services from 1929-56, different members of the Class rotating on these services incl 466.468,469 & 470.

A GER Buck or a LNER J72 in grey as a 'generic' GSR/CIE tank loco anyone?

Anyone for an Accurascale 'Buck' in grey with yellow numerals as a fictious CIE loco?

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

. 
It survived until 1957 latterly at Rocksavage but I don’t think it worked much (at all?) in the last few years. 

 

 

 

Work was done on it to send it to fenit, but that work was taken by something else.

16 minutes ago, Mayner said:

While the 12 ex-Midland Small Tanks were somewhat spread around in GSR/CIE days with examples eventually working on the Waterford & Tramore, Shillelagh Branch (closed 47?) West Cork system and Tralee & Fenit (redundant from Waterford & Tramore late 50s) they were practically unknown on the southern where the J11 was the dominant Shunting Banking loco.

I suppose the West Cork 4-6-0s 6 surviving towards the end of steam could be considered a 'standard' Class, apart from their work in West Cork one was allocated almost continuously to Dublin-Bray suburban services from 1929-56, different members of the Class rotating on these services incl 466.468,469 & 470.

 

 

 

The MGWR locos certainly would be a good shout. All the obscure Midland branches it got too….

 

On Bandon tanks, they certainly seemed well liked in Dublin. William McDonnell said he’d have preferred another batch of Bandons to the 670 and 850 class! 2 lasted until 1963, 4 or 5 made it to the 1960s. 2 locos got into CIE lined green. I’ve only found a colour photo of 467 heavily weathered but I suspect is wearing green under the filth. 466 is the other loco. 
 

There is also this Ex works photo on the archive. Appears to show 467 in green (look at the lining on the tanks)

https://flic.kr/p/2pwnTtN

the rebuilds of them can get a bit confusing though. Especially 463’s condition for its final 15 years.

Edited Wednesday at 09:31 by Westcorkrailway

[Mol_PMB]

57 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Work was done on it to send it to fenit, but that work was taken by something else.

The MGWR locos certainly would be a good shout. All the obscure Midland branches it got too….

Absolutely - it was MGWR tank 560 that took on the Fenit job instead of 299.

[Mayner]

13 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Work was done on it to send it to fenit, but that work was taken by something else.

The MGWR locos certainly would be a good shout. All the obscure Midland branches it got too….

 

On the Midland the 'small tanks' appear to have been mainly restricted to shunting and pilot work (Galway, Liffey Junction, possibly Mullingar and Athlone in CIE days.

The three surviving branch lines with mixed train service (Loughrea, Ballinrobe and Ballaghadreen) were worked by tender engines mixture of (Midland) Standard Goods, 650 Class 2-4-0 and 533 the last servicable Achill Bogie, the remaining short branches were closed to regular service by 1947.

Effectively looking 4  different versions of the Class to cover Midland, GSR & CIE eras, 1. Original as introduced version with tall chimney, flush smokebox, ornate smokebox door and front vaccum pipe looped around the smokebox front, 2. Post 1912 MGWR/GSR re-boilered version flush smokebox with tall chimney, dished smokebox door with handwheel, ross pop safety valves and front vacuum pipe in conventional location, some locos operated in this condition up to and possibly into the Emergency. 3. Post 1930s GSR/CIE version flush smokebox, tall chimney and dished smokebox door with handwheel replaced by Inchacore 'style" riveted smokebox, built up chimney, conventional smokebox door with solid hand wheel. Waterford & Tramore version with enclosed bunker inset cab steps version 2 or 3 smokebox.

Lot of variation in a simple almost 'standard" small tank loco.

Resource wise MGWR/GSR weight diagrams exist (similar level of info to drawings published in model railway mags, Padraig O'Cuimin prepared a nice large outline drawing of the loco (no dimensions) as part of his Broadstone Series drawings (more suitable for display in a picture frame than a working drawing, its possible the original Sharp Stewart GA drawings may exist in some museum in the UK.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

17 minutes ago, Mayner said:

On the Midland the 'small tanks' appear to have been mainly restricted to shunting and pilot work (Galway, Liffey Junction, possibly Mullingar and Athlone in CIE days.

The three surviving branch lines with mixed train service (Loughrea, Ballinrobe and Ballaghadreen) were worked by tender engines mixture of (Midland) Standard Goods, 650 Class 2-4-0 and 533 the last servicable Achill Bogie, the remaining short branches were closed to regular service by 1947.

Effectively looking 4  different versions of the Class to cover Midland, GSR & CIE eras, 1. Original as introduced version with tall chimney, flush smokebox, ornate smokebox door and front vaccum pipe looped around the smokebox front, 2. Post 1912 MGWR/GSR re-boilered version flush smokebox with tall chimney, dished smokebox door with handwheel, ross pop safety valves and front vacuum pipe in conventional location, some locos operated in this condition up to and possibly into the Emergency. 3. Post 1930s GSR/CIE version flush smokebox, tall chimney and dished smokebox door with handwheel replaced by Inchacore 'style" riveted smokebox, built up chimney, conventional smokebox door with solid hand wheel. Waterford & Tramore version with enclosed bunker inset cab steps version 2 or 3 smokebox.

Lot of variation in a simple almost 'standard" small tank loco.

Resource wise MGWR/GSR weight diagrams exist (similar level of info to drawings published in model railway mags, Padraig O'Cuimin prepared a nice large outline drawing of the loco (no dimensions) as part of his Broadstone Series drawings (more suitable for display in a picture frame than a working drawing, its possible the original Sharp Stewart GA drawings may exist in some museum in the UK.

 

 

Plus several livery variations - MGWR lined green, MGWR lined black, MGWR unlined black, GSR grey, CIE grey (painted number instead of cast numberplate). From Clements / O'Neills notes, it seems none were black in later days, though final photos of 560 do LOOK black - maybe it was belatedly painted black at the end. I posessed one of its numberplates at on e time, and when cleaned it was very definitely dark grey with faded pale yellow numerals. Like many an apparently-black loco in the last few years, oily rags could have been the culprit; but no matter - five variations of a livery is presumably plenty!

[Westcorkrailway]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Plus several livery variations - MGWR lined green, MGWR lined black, MGWR unlined black, GSR grey, CIE grey (painted number instead of cast numberplate). From Clements / O'Neills notes, it seems none were black in later days, though final photos of 560 do LOOK black - maybe it was belatedly painted black at the end. I posessed one of its numberplates at on e time, and when cleaned it was very definitely dark grey with faded pale yellow numerals. Like many an apparently-black loco in the last few years, oily rags could have been the culprit; but no matter - five variations of a livery is presumably plenty!

Didnt 560 have plates though rather then painted numbers? Did they paint the face of the GSR plates yellow? 

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Didnt 560 have plates though rather then painted numbers? Did they paint the face of the GSR plates yellow? 

Yes, she kept her GSR plates to the end, as did a very small minority of CIE locomotives.

Numberplates were always body colour, just painted over black on a black loco or grey on a grey loco (the majority).

The edging of the plate and raised numbers were picked out in a very pale yellow.

The only exceptions to this were the three 800s and two narrow gauge engines, the latter two having numerals edged in red.

560 looks black in its last 2 years or so, but those who recorded what engines were painted black don’t mention it, nor any other member of that class. The plate I had, though, when cleaned was a very dark grey. Numbers were faded pale yellow.

In GSR days, certainly, some engines had plates just completely painted over, with the numbers not picked out at all, and others had them as polished metal, which looked silver - the plates were not brass!

Senior took a photo of two 0.6.0s (a J18 and a J15) newly painted at Inchicore in the mid 1930s. Both had polished, rather than pale yellow, raised numbers on their plates, and that’s how they went back into traffic.

[Mayner]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Plus several livery variations - MGWR lined green, MGWR lined black, MGWR unlined black, GSR grey, CIE grey (painted number instead of cast numberplate). From Clements / O'Neills notes, it seems none were black in later days, though final photos of 560 do LOOK black - maybe it was belatedly painted black at the end. I posessed one of its numberplates at on e time, and when cleaned it was very definitely dark grey with faded pale yellow numerals. Like many an apparently-black loco in the last few years, oily rags could have been the culprit; but no matter - five variations of a livery is presumably plenty!

There is a serious risk of ending up in a diminishing returns even loss making situation tooling up to manufacture 4 physical variations of a relatively obscure steam loco with several livery variations in a considerably smaller market than for British outline. Based on population alone demand for model railways in England alone is likely to be 11 times higher than Ireland, hence the founders of IRM shift in focus from Irish to British Outline models. The popularity of the LNER and GER (with its own historic society alone) would have driven demand for ex-GER Locos including the Hornby Claude J15 and Accurascale Buck in all its variations.

My experience with the JM Design MGWR 2-4-0 kit, I produced the kit in three of the four main variations 1) late MGWR/GSR condition with round topped boiler and a choice or canopy or Inchacore Cabs  2) late GSR/CIE condition with roundtopped boiler, Inchacore cab and slotted valences, 3 late GSR/CIE condition with Y Belpair superheated boiler.

Interestingly while I received orders for equal numbers of the two roundtopped boiler versions of the loco, demand for the Y Boiler version was significantly lower. 

Although I considered producing the original Flyway Cab version of the loco, I did not receive a single enquiry request for the loco in its original condition.

My experiences with the JM Design rtr 20T Goods Brake were relatively similar while demand for the original as built version Planked & Aluminium sheeted duckets in 4 livery variations was quite good, demand for the 1960s upgraded version with modernised duckets in particular the ply bodied version were lower than expected.  Interestingly the upgraded versions of the Brake Van would have been more appropriate for the Black and Tan and early Supertrain diesels than my earlier versions of the Brake Van.

I suppose the WT is the most logical choice for a tank loco, no apparent requirement for costly major tooling variations, large 'go anywhere tank loco (in preservation anyway), loco still exists, apparently digitally scanned by RPSI (though scanning technology likely to have moved on) suitable rolling stock not really an issue.

Edited Thursday at 11:49 by Mayner

[Patrick Davey]

Interesting discussion folks - I am in awe of your knowledge!