Wanted IE / NIR GM OO Gauge

[IrishTrainScenes]

Would anyone have an 071, 101, 111, 121, 141, 181 or 201 Class model for sale OO Gauge? Please private message me if anything.

[DJ Dangerous]

Try contacting @WRENNEIRE and @Stoby here on the forum.

Mark’s Models have 141’s and 181’s.

Rails of Sheffield have 141’s and 181’s in stock, and the occasional 121.

Lots and lots of 121’s on eBay.

Try the Bray monthly show, too.

 

[Darren.d]

I picked up a 121 in black and tan from eBay few weeks back €165 including postage and vat.came in 10 days from china.

[Davenport]

DM you

[StevieB]

PM sent.

Stephen

[DJ Dangerous]

Another load of 121’s on eBay today, if you’re still looking.

[seagoebox]

are these 121's authorised by Murphy Models? or are they "extras" direct from the factory?.....

[flange lubricator]

I think its the factory  going solo.

[seagoebox]

what about the guarantee?, Mr Murphy will hardly stand over them.

[flange lubricator]

6 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

what about the guarantee?, Mr Murphy will hardly stand over them.

No not at all you would have to return them to China and good luck with that. 

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, seagoebox said:

are these 121's authorised by Murphy Models? or are they "extras" direct from the factory?.....

They’re indistinguishable. I bought one earlier this year to test, and they are identical inside and out.

@Westcorkrailway said that they are factory rejects, unfit for sale, but I believe these are over-produced by the factory.

How long is the guarantee on the 121’s valid for? If one bought a second-hand 121, would it be covered under guarantee by Murphy Models?

The Murphy Models website states:

“If you experience problems with your Class 121, 071, 141/181, Class 201, Craven Coaches or Mark IId Coaches, please contact your supplier in the first instance as they may be able to resolve the problem without having to return the model to Murphy Models. 

 

If the model does need to be returned to Murphy Models, please package it properly and securely and address it to:

 

Service Department

Murphy Models

2 Wexford St

Dublin 2 

Ireland

 

Please enclose a full description of the problem, a contact phone number and/or e mail address and a return postal address.

 

Enquiries can be e mailed to: customerservice@murphymodels.com”

[WRENNEIRE]

To the best of my knowledge they were extra models made by the factory with the intention of offering them for sale through a third party
P Murphy is trying to take legal action against the said manufacturer but dealing with China is worse than dealing with Trump
I would ask anyone considering buying one from China not to, as it will hinder further production from Murphy Models
Also I will have some for sale at Bray this Sunday, just saying.......

 

!
 

[Horsetan]

12 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

To the best of my knowledge they were extra models made by the factory with the intention of offering them for sale through a third party
P Murphy is trying to take legal action against the said manufacturer but dealing with China is worse than dealing with Trump
I would ask anyone considering buying one from China not to, as it will hinder further production from Murphy Models
Also I will have some for sale at Bray this Sunday, just saying.......

 

!
 

 Someone clearly wanted a slice of the action.

[Davenport]

On 2/8/2025 at 9:53 PM, Davenport said:

DM you

Why the anrgy face?? in my reply,  I have a 071 for sale which @IrishTrainScenes is looking for

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

To the best of my knowledge they were extra models made by the factory with the intention of offering them for sale through a third party
P Murphy is trying to take legal action against the said manufacturer but dealing with China is worse than dealing with Trump
I would ask anyone considering buying one from China not to, as it will hinder further production from Murphy Models
Also I will have some for sale at Bray this Sunday, just saying.......

 

!
 

How will buying these hinder further production from Murphy Models?

I assume he has put safeguards in place to prevent this happening again.

Clearing the market of these (and the 141’s) before Paddy’s next loco will BOOST his sales, not hinder them.

The only ones who would benefit from people being afraid to buy them are out for their own interests.

 

[Ironroad]

12 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

How will buying these hinder further production from Murphy Models?

I assume he has put safeguards in place to prevent this happening again.

Clearing the market of these (and the 141’s) before Paddy’s next loco will BOOST his sales, not hinder them.

The only ones who would benefit from people being afraid to buy them are out for their own interests.

 

Hi Dave, In my view this is at very least highly unethical behaviour on the part of the factory and should be boycotted to discourage it.  I take your point that there are vultures who might attempt to benefit from this but at the prices they are currently being offered the incentive is marginal.  On the warranty question, there is nothing to distinguish them, so regardless as to any stipulation on the part of Murphy Models, in the final analysis I the ball ends up with Murphy Models and that is a very real problem for Paddy.

Serial numbers might be a good idea going forward.

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Hi Dave, In my view this is at very least highly unethical behaviour on the part of the factory and should be boycotted to discourage it.  I take your point that there are vultures who might attempt to benefit from this but at the prices they are currently being offered the incentive is marginal.  On the warranty question, there is nothing to distinguish them, so regardless as to any stipulation on the part of Murphy Models, in the final analysis I the ball ends up with Murphy Models and that is a very real problem for Paddy.

Serial numbers might be a good idea going forward.

That’s an assumption on the ethics. We don’t know if there was wording in the contract that permitted the sale of the extras. If it IS permitted, it’s not unethical, it’s just bad luck.

Price difference between the extras and original models for sale is quite extreme. Around €150 including postage, for mine, with a similar example quoted elsewhere by @Darren.d.

I had been hoping that my experimental one would have been different internally, cheaper motor or something, or wouldn’t run, or would sound like a bag of spanners, to help identify the different models, but that was not the case.

Hopefully, Murphy Models publish an official statement on their website, explaining how this happened, and what steps they have taken to prevent future occurences. In the absense of such a statement, it’s prudent to at least be open to the possibility that the extras have been legally produced, albeit to the disdain of some.

I think it’s about two years now since the extras appeared for sale online, but I’m open to correction.

On the bright side, the originals were long sold out everywhere before the extras appeared, so there was no harm caused to sales of the originals.

I’ve used the terms “originals” and “extras” as they seem to encompass the models well, without making any accusations.

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Ironroad said:

....Serial numbers might be a good idea going forward.

Yes, but almost anything can be forged nowadays. Who's to know unless the model goes pear-shaped?

4 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

That’s an assumption on the ethics.....

You can have business, or you can have ethics.

[Ironroad]

53 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

That’s an assumption on the ethics. We don’t know if there was wording in the contract that permitted the sale of the extras. If it IS permitted, it’s not unethical, it’s just bad luck.

Price difference between the extras and original models for sale is quite extreme. Around €150 including postage, for mine, with a similar example quoted elsewhere by @Darren.d.

I had been hoping that my experimental one would have been different internally, cheaper motor or something, or wouldn’t run, or would sound like a bag of spanners, to help identify the different models, but that was not the case.

Hopefully, Murphy Models publish an official statement on their website, explaining how this happened, and what steps they have taken to prevent future occurences. In the absense of such a statement, it’s prudent to at least be open to the possibility that the extras have been legally produced, albeit to the disdain of some.

I think it’s about two years now since the extras appeared for sale online, but I’m open to correction.

On the bright side, the originals were long sold out everywhere before the extras appeared, so there was no harm caused to sales of the originals.

I’ve used the terms “originals” and “extras” as they seem to encompass the models well, without making any accusations.

It would be helpful if Paddy himself would comment on the matter. But on the face of it, it's a copyright issue and since these "new" items are not sold through the channels used by the copyright owner it is reasonable to assume that they represent theft of the copyright.  Following the principle of copyright established in Ireland as early as the 6th century, the items on offer by the factory technically belong to Murphy Models.

https://opensource.com/law/11/6/story-st-columba-modern-copyright-battle-sixth-century-ireland

In this case what we seem to be seeing is excess production being offered by the manufacturer. That excess production is a necessary part of the production process as it is unlikely every item produced will pass quality control, but the likelihood is that some of the excess will be perfect. It is not uncommon for example for  a printer to turn over the excess production of a book to the publisher, otherwise the excess is destroyed, and that should  be the principle here. It is important to keep in mind that the cost of producing that excess was factored into the price quoted for the production run and therefore was paid for by the producer, in this case Murphy Models.

All of this has been discussed before on this forum.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

20 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

It would be helpful if Paddy himself would comment on the matter. But on the face of it, it's a copyright issue and since these "new" items are not sold through the channels used by the copyright owner it is reasonable to assume that they represent theft of the copyright.  Following the principle of copyright established in Ireland as early as the 6th century, the items on offer by the factory technically belong to Murphy Models.

https://opensource.com/law/11/6/story-st-columba-modern-copyright-battle-sixth-century-ireland

In this case what we seem to be seeing is excess production being offered by the manufacturer. That excess production is a necessary part of the production process as it is unlikely every item produced will pass quality control, but the likelihood is that some of the excess will be perfect. It is not uncommon for example for  a printer to turn over the excess production of a book to the publisher, otherwise the excess is destroyed, and that should  be the principle here. It is important to keep in mind that the cost of producing that excess was factored into the price quoted for the production run and therefore was paid for by the producer, in this case Murphy Models.

All of this has been discussed before on this forum.

 

Assuming that the small print has permitted these extras be produced, how is that a copyright issue?

In the absence of a statement from Murphy Models, it is equally fair to assume that the extras are fully legal.

One can choose to assume that they are legal, based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty, or one can choose to assume that they are illegal, based on personal preference.

[WRENNEIRE]

DJ you are missing the point
Look at all the other items the seller has listed

17 hours ago, Davenport said:

Why the anrgy face?? in my reply,  I have a 071 for sale which @IrishTrainScenes is looking for

It was actually meant for  @IrishTrainScenes, I sent him a couple of DM's but no reply, sorry man 

[DJ Dangerous]

17 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

DJ you are missing the point
Look at all the other items the seller has listed

It was actually meant for  @IrishTrainScenes, I sent him a couple of DM's but no reply, sorry man 

My point is that nobody knows the full story, so we are left to assume one thing or another.

No point assuming the worst. If somebody can’t get their hands on the 121 that they want, buying one of the extras is akin to buying a used one.

I just hope that the 121’s, and the 141’s, sell out before the 071’s or 201’s arrive.

[Warbonnet]

36 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Assuming that the small print has permitted these extras be produced, how is that a copyright issue?

In the absence of a statement from Murphy Models, it is equally fair to assume that the extras are fully legal.

One can choose to assume that they are legal, based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty, or one can choose to assume that they are illegal, based on personal preference.

The design is Paddy's intellectual property, as is his branding. Both are being used here to sell something that has not been paid for by Murphy Models.

When you give the go ahead to a factory you enter a contract with them with the specified a set amount you want delivered to you. This is made using your moulds that you own. Anything after that is sold is in breach of that contract, and just unethical. This is certainly a factory that we will never use. 

I find it in bad taste personally, especially when you see the RPSI special in there. A limited edition model made to raise funds for them. You can bet that not one penny of these models will support Irish preservation. 

I know Paddy himself is very upset about this. The trust is broken with a factory, which will now delay new projects as you probably do not work with them again, so that's how it affects us as modellers. It disrupts the future income of Murphy Models in this manner too. 

If you care about the hobby, then you wont buy these models. 

[skinner75]

China doesn't recognise IP unfortunately

[DJ Dangerous]

4 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

The design is Paddy's intellectual property, as is his branding. Both are being used here to sell something that has not been paid for by Murphy Models.

When you give the go ahead to a factory you enter a contract with them with the specified a set amount you want delivered to you. This is made using your moulds that you own. Anything after that is sold is in breach of that contract, and just unethical. This is certainly a factory that we will never use. 

I find it in bad taste personally, especially when you see the RPSI special in there. A limited edition model made to raise funds for them. You can bet that not one penny of these models will support Irish preservation. 

I know Paddy himself is very upset about this. The trust is broken with a factory, which will now delay new projects as you probably do not work with them again, so that's how it affects us as modellers. It disrupts the future income of Murphy Models in this manner too. 

If you care about the hobby, then you wont buy these models. 

Have you seen the proof that these extras are in breach of contract, or is that an assumption based on your experience?

Murphy Models have already released a loco since the 121’s, so your statement on this delaying new projects seems flawed.

I agree that it is sad, specially the RPSI limited edition, but I’d like to know, rather than assume, what the legality is.

[Warbonnet]

9 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Have you seen the proof that these extras are in breach of contract, or is that an assumption based on your experience?

Murphy Models have already released a loco since the 121’s, so your statement on this delaying new projects seems flawed.

I agree that it is sad, specially the RPSI limited edition, but I’d like to know, rather than assume, what the legality is.

1. Paddy Murphy has told me. We have an employee in Hong Kong who is helping him with his enquiries.

2. The 141s were made in a different factory and were delivered before this carry on emerged. It will of course affect any new Murphy Models projects going forwards as you can no longer perhaps trust the factory and have to move CAD, or tools. Having done this ourselves I can assure you it's an unbelievable pain in the bollocks which costs you money, time and deferred earnings.

3. This stinks to high heaven sadly and is a question of morals as well as legality. 

[DJ Dangerous]

10 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

1. Paddy Murphy has told me. We have an employee in Hong Kong who is helping him with his enquiries.

2. The 141s were made in a different factory and were delivered before this carry on emerged. It will of course affect any new Murphy Models projects going forwards as you can no longer perhaps trust the factory and have to move CAD, or tools. Having done this ourselves I can assure you it's an unbelievable pain in the bollocks which costs you money, time and deferred earnings.

3. This stinks to high heaven sadly and is a question of morals as well as legality. 

So we can take your post here as an official notice on the extras being illegal?

If so, based on facts rather than speculation, then boycotting the extras makes sense.

But, how can they be removed from the market before the next loco arrives, if nobody buys them?

And, how can the boycott be effective if the only potential buyers who are aware of it are here on the forum?

I doubt that the sellers will remove them from sale, and would assume that they have covered their backs by “laundering” the locos through several companies, first.

If I recall correctly, the 121’s were Paddy’s first project with this factory.

For the 071’s and 201’s, he planned using the original tooling with no changes.

That implies that he wouldn’t have been going back to the 121 factory until after those two locos, at the very earliest, so project delays are unlikely to be due to that.

Not saying that the A/S delay wasn’t caused by this kind if behaviour, just that based ln what we know, delays to the next two MM locos are unlikely to be caused by this.

I suppose my main question, now that you have publicly stated the legality, is where to go from here?

[IrishTrainScenes]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

DJ you are missing the point
Look at all the other items the seller has listed

It was actually meant for  @IrishTrainScenes, I sent him a couple of DM's but no reply, sorry man 

I have been very busy lately mate 

[Warbonnet]

Email in from Murphy Models to his retailers includes this. 

Quote

"Hello Customers,
It has come to my attention, again, that contraband Class 121 locos are being offered for sale on ebay. These have no warranty and will not be serviced by me nor spares supplied under any circumstances. I intend approaching ebay and requesting that they take down this site."

Just passing on info. 

[DJ Dangerous]

13 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

Email in from Murphy Models to his retailers includes this. 

Just passing on info. 

Excellent, delighted to see this!

Thank you!!!

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, skinner75 said:

China doesn't recognise IP unfortunately

Imitation is sincerest form of flattery.

The Chinese: a great bunch of lads.

[irishmail]

@IrishTrainScenes Just seen this of facebook if any good to you??    One loco sold, but couple of others left at time of posting this.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1111393745593442/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=24564477206525099

 

[Thomas]

I have 2 x 121 with sound, one 141 Black and tan DCC ready. Also 4 x Craven coaches populated and with lights a Craven buffet car and snack car, populated and with lights. If interested PM me