Interesting not-so-early Irish Railway photos

[GSWR 90]

9 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

A nice sentiment, but Not the same whistle! 90s rebuild in Tuam was drastic a Complete nut and bolt rebuild lot a loco already tired at the end of service, and left outdoors for 25 years!  The whistle currently on 90 is said to have originated from the GWR. 

Whistle on 90 in the 1990s was a BR one. Stolen while it was stored in Tuam. The RPSI made a replica of 186’s original GSWR one, so 90 will sound like it did 150ish years ago 

[David Holman]

Interesting to read that bits of Sprite linger on in No 90. Have often tinkered with the idea of building Sprite and its pay coach, because they travelled far and wide in their time and would make a novel addition to my 1900s scenes on Northport Quay. Thus far have only got round to making an outline drawing, using info in the Green Bible, but if anyone has anything else, it might just be the nudge I need...

[Galteemore]

4 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Interesting to read that bits of Sprite linger on in No 90. Have often tinkered with the idea of building Sprite and its pay coach, because they travelled far and wide in their time and would make a novel addition to my 1900s scenes on Northport Quay. Thus far have only got round to making an outline drawing, using info in the Green Bible, but if anyone has anything else, it might just be the nudge I need...

Have a vague idea that Roger offered a kit many moons ago? He may have some ideas….

[Mol_PMB]

I bought a few old Irish prints on ebay recently and I think this one is sufficiently 'interesting' to put here as it is a nice contrast of old and new.

The date is 1957 and the location is Skibbereen. The passenger train is topped and tailed by the new order of shiny silver C class and tin van, both looking pretty clean at this time although the excreta from the Crossley engine is starting to show. 

In between, 3 old 6-wheel coaches probably of MGWR parentage form the passenger accommodation. Two seem to be two lav compos or former lav firsts, with an all-third (now second) in the middle.

Lightweight track, low-quality ballast and some weeds growing by the rails. I think the poster on the left is advertising CIE bus or coach services.

Come on IRM, we need a C class!

 

[Colonel]

Splendid! C class in 7mm scale, anyone?

[jhb171achill]

15 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I bought a few old Irish prints on ebay recently and I think this one is sufficiently 'interesting' to put here as it is a nice contrast of old and new.

The date is 1957 and the location is Skibbereen. The passenger train is topped and tailed by the new order of shiny silver C class and tin van, both looking pretty clean at this time although the excreta from the Crossley engine is starting to show. 

In between, 3 old 6-wheel coaches probably of MGWR parentage form the passenger accommodation. Two seem to be two lav compos or former lav firsts, with an all-third (now second) in the middle.

Lightweight track, low-quality ballast and some weeds growing by the rails. I think the poster on the left is advertising CIE bus or coach services.

Come on IRM, we need a C class!

Midland coaches, yes, of 1890s parentage - some 60-70 years old then! 
 

 

[leslie10646]

Well done @Mol_PMB for getting the interesting Skibbereen photo.

What a train?

Most photos of that era on those branches show an old bogie coach as the passenger accommodation, so a string of six wheelers is quite a find.

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Well done @Mol_PMB for getting the interesting Skibbereen photo.

What a train?

Most photos of that era on those branches show an old bogie coach as the passenger accommodation, so a string of six wheelers is quite a find.

In general, old branch lines that survived the fuel crisis suspensions of passenger service (Clonakilty, Baltimore, Valentia Hbr, Loughrea, Kenmare, Ballinrobe, Ballaghaderreen, Foynes, Ballina*) tended to go on using the same six-wheelers they had when they opened, well into the early diesel era. Sights of brand-new tin vans and "C" class locos with elderly six-wheelers became commonplace between 1957 and 1961.

However, as Mol mentions, during the fifties these were increasingly replaced by a bogie composite, a six-wheel brake or brake 3rd, and a tin van.

Once someone markets RTR tin vans, I predict good sales - as with few exceptions (one being summer weather and long daylight!), a "genny van" is NEEDED as much as a locomotive on a train of that time, and later times.

It is worth commenting here on coach types and uses between 1945 (formation of CIE) and the early 1970s, when the last timber-bodied pre-CIE passenger stock was withdrawn, especially in the light of recent moves for our community here to place orders with Alphagraphix for MGWR six wheeled types.

When the GSR was formed, they basically had four types of "main line" stock. In some cases these stayed very much where they had always been. In others, they ended up widely spread, often as far away from "home" as they could be; e.g. a MGWR coach at Baltimore, or a DSER dining car on a Knock special at Claremorris. So if we fast forward into the later days of the grey'n'green era, we get a pattern, which is this....

1. Ex CBSCR stock.

Fewer numerically, and most examples never operated anywhere but home territory. A train mostly of CBSCR stock in Sligo was something seen about as often as a Lough Swilly brake van on the Orient Express. Just didn't happen. So, of modelling these obscure types, only appropriate for a West Cork themed layout; so no J15 haulage!

2. Ex DSER stock.

As long ago as 1925 when the GSR came into being, it was evident that there were arrears of maintenance on both locos and coaching stock. jhbSenior personally recalls that within months of the GSR taking over, ex-GSWR & MGWR locos and coaching stock (and a Bandon tank eventually) migrating into the south-eastern section, even his local Harcourt Street line. When CIE came into being, the process of sorting out old stock accelerated and within only a couple of years a standardisation drive had added to the woes of ageing south-eastern stock, and substantial withdrawals took place bettwen 1946 and 1950. Thus, by the time the early diesels came along, DSER six-wheelers were gone (or as good as), and even bogie stock from that company was rare - and not to be seen off its home turf.

3. Ex GSWR stock.

Numerically superior by far, and with its home base as Inchicore, hardly surprising that stock from this company survived to include the very last six wheel vehicles of all - a couple of full brakes only withdrawn in 1969 and 1970; and a number of old third class bogies, including several non-corridor ones, still in use in the Dublin area on busy days until 1972. However, as for the specifically six-wheeled, PASSENGER-carrying stock, by the time the last of those were withdrawn in 1963, we had the curious situation that most of these were gone, replaced by MGWR types, and yet passenger brakes had survived - both bogie and six-wheeled. However, most BOGIE stock by 1963 were ex-GSWR (only a handful of ex-MGWR bogies ever saw black'n'tan).

4. Ex MGWR stock.

Opposite of GSWR; their six-wheelers survived, while their bogies were gone by about 1965 - few enough of these having even seen the 1960s in.

 

In summary, if authenticity is sought in diesel days, the following would be typical for pre-1963.

Branch lines - mostly Midland six wheelers, with either a Midland full brake or a GSWR one, or maybe an old brake 3rd of either company - OR - an old GSWR bogie composite with a tin van and maybe one old six-wheel brake of some sort.

Main lines - mostly GSWR bogies, mixed in with Bredins, various types of laminate, and Park Royals, plus old GSWR six-wheeled full brakes on mail trains. All with tin vans! On the DSER the odd ex-GNR coach too, after 1958.

After 1963: Well, after 1963 there was only the Ballina branch - so a wooden, Bredin or laminate bogie with a tin van.

Main lines - same as above. Of all the six-wheelers of all types, only about half a dozen survived 1963 in traffic, and they were all (a) full brakes, and 9b) GSWR types. Two were withdrawn and gone within 18 months, and of the others three were painted black'n'tan, the only six-wheelers ever to have this livery. Last credible record of them in traffic was on the up and down Galway mails in 1968, but one was withdrawn officially in 1969. The other was withdrawn in 1970, but a picture of it a year earlier that I saw some time ago shows it looking as if it hadn't been used for some time.

As an aside, this is why the Hattons Genesis six-wheel range only offered a full brake in black'n'tan. Every single other type was withdrawn before black'n'tan became the official livery. Thus, it's historically impossible to run a black'n'tan six-wheeler with green passenger-carrying ones; the former only received the new livery after the latter were all withdrawn! So, a BnT 6-wheel van lives at the back of a mail train of Bredins, old wooden bogies and laminates - not old six-wheel coaches!

 

 

(* The only one left!!)

[Mol_PMB]

It's also worth noting that most of the 6-wheel full brakes that lasted beyond 1963 were gangwayed ('hooded') for working in those mail trains. 

I think 18 may have been the only non-gangwayed 6-wheel coaching stock to receive BnT livery, and it was the early variant of that livery with a shallower band of tan and the numbers on a black background.

I'm happy to be proved wrong especially if you can post a photo in this thread:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19723-gswr-6-wheel-full-brakes/

 

[cheesy_peas]

On 26/11/2025 at 4:50 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Nice view of one of the few Belgian locos to run in Ireland, on eBay at present:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/pt0AAeSwBnVpJySs/s-l1600.jpg

CSE Carlow and its denizens were rather camera-shy.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

It's also worth noting that most of the 6-wheel full brakes that lasted beyond 1963 were gangwayed ('hooded') for working in those mail trains. 

I think 18 may have been the only non-gangwayed 6-wheel coaching stock to receive BnT livery, and it was the early variant of that livery with a shallower band of tan and the numbers on a black background.

I'm happy to be proved wrong especially if you can post a photo in this thread:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19723-gswr-6-wheel-full-brakes/

 

There was one other - number began with 1xxx series. I've a note of it somewhere. Got the BnT, but I don't think it ever had gangways. No. 69 of 1888, now being rebuilt into a (non-prototypical) brake first at Downpatrick, had a gangway at one end only!

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

There was one other - number began with 1xxx series. I've a note of it somewhere. Got the BnT, but I don't think it ever had gangways. No. 69 of 1888, now being rebuilt into a (non-prototypical) brake first at Downpatrick, had a gangway at one end only!

Most likely 1075 then. According to the 1961 CIE carriage register, 69 had 2 gangways at that time:

I have found clear photos of 18, 79 and 1077 in BnT livery, and would be interested to see photos of others. 

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Most likely 1075 then. According to the 1961 CIE carriage register, 69 had 2 gangways at that time:

I have found clear photos of 18, 79 and 1077 in BnT livery, and would be interested to see photos of others. 

 

Could well have been 1075, yes. 69, though, didn’t have two gangways at the end…. one blank end!

Diagram might be wrong…. 

[Mol_PMB]

This photo has been posted on Flickr by the KDH archive and it's a nice high-quality image that you can zoom right in on:

Kenmare in County Kerry on the 15th of April 1955 and in view is MGWR 6 wheel coach 38M.

This is quite an interesting image when considering liveries on the old coaches. At first glance the livery is entirely plain, with only a barely-legible running number visible. There are no obvious snails or class designations. I would have said this was early 1950s 'plain green'.

But if you zoom in closely on the area around the running number, you can see traces of lining (both the broad eau-de-nil and the fine gold lines either side) which can compared to the similar vehicle on the left margin of Ernie's photo below.

So 38M in the first photo shows traces of the original CIE dark green scheme with elaborate lining, but is it:

(a) badly faded and weathered to a state where the lining is barely visible, and the snail and class designations disappeared entirely?

(b) overpainted in plain green, which is starting to wear off and reveal traces of the lining underneath?

 

Having added Ernie's photo for comparison (also 1955), this then begs the question of the livery of the GSWR coach that forms the main subject of Ernie's image. Look at the 3's and the other 3's underneath, which have a very GSR look to their shape.

 

If only colour film had been affordable in the 1950s! 

[Westcorkrailway]

Some more from Colm’s collection 

Ulster transport stock Far from home

 

some more rarely seen E 401 class action on the quays at cork. A lot of this track is still there but may not be in the medium term  

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Some more from Colm’s collection 

Ulster transport stock Far from home

 

some more rarely seen E 401 class action on the quays at cork. A lot of this track is still there but may not be in the medium term  

Most interesting-I do like a dockside railway scene! A couple of my own photos from my visit to Cork last year - one on each side of the river:

I must plan another trip before all this disappears. 

[leslie10646]

Wow, after that shot of Colm's at Cork, I'll expect a rush to buy my Brown van!

A pigeon special? Quite a fiind, as are the shots of an E Class on the docks. 

Thanks @Westcorkrailway

[Westcorkrailway]

https://flic.kr/p/2pww8YK

 

silver laminate, Park Royal and 6 wheel coach shunted by a filthy C class out in Bantry 

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

https://flic.kr/p/2pww8YK

 

silver laminate, Park Royal and 6 wheel coach shunted by a filthy C class out in Bantry 

The date is given as 1950s, but can be narrowed down to post-1956 by the laminate, the '2' class digits and the presence of C219 itself. Given that the laminate and the loco are already a bit shabby I'd say maybe 1958?

That may be the last surviving GSWR 6-wheel brake third. 

I have ambitions to model one of those laminates by fitting new etched sides and roof details to an IRM Park Royal. The underframe and interior were near-identical.

[Mol_PMB]

5th April 1952 and here are some freshly-painted carriages at Inchicore in 'plain dark green' livery:

https://www.thetransportlibrary.co.uk/-/galleries/rail/lens-of-sutton-association/lens-of-sutton-association-irish-railways-part-2/-/medias/d694a9fe-c7f9-4823-9d78-e63ec4c947d9-cie-37m-6-wheel-birdcage-brake-third-coach-and-cie-185m-6-wheel

From 1945 to 1950 CIE used the dark green with elaborate EdN lining, snails, and class digits 1 and 3.

In 1950 under the new nationalised CIE board, the livery was dramatically simplified with no lining or snails, and only 1 class digits. This 'plain dark green' livery appeared on CIE's new-built stock in 1951-52 such as this composite 2135:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508722781

It was also applied to older stock as seen in the first photo linked above. Seen also here, in colour, in June 1953:

And here, looking a bit work-worn in 1956:

As you can see, this plain dark green wasn't just a 'West Cork' curiosity but was applied at Inchicore and to a wide variety of carriages including MGWR, DSER, GSWR and CIE vehicles. 

 

The extremely plain livery was revised slightly around 1952/3 to include a thin 2" waist line in EdN, which matched the AEC railcars being delivered at that time:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507832507

 

[Galteemore]

This is most interesting. I have a few 6w ex MGW coaches to build. Am dithering about GSR maroon or green…..I have suitable GSR style transfers (LMS but they’ll pass) but no CIE green numerals. If only someone had some 7mm CIE number transfers ……and the RAL no for the green  

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

This is most interesting. I have a few 6w ex MGW coaches to build. Am dithering about GSR maroon or green…..I have suitable GSR style transfers (LMS but they’ll pass) but no CIE green numerals. If only someone had some 7mm CIE number transfers ……and the RAL no for the green  

I have (or can easily produce) the transfer artwork for what you need, I think. And a supplier. Are you looking for the dark green numbers to go on a broad EdN waistline, or the EdN numerals to go on a plain dark green carriage? Do you need 'GUARD' and/or the EdN tonnage lettering for the ends?

[Galteemore]

24 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I have (or can easily produce) the transfer artwork for what you need, I think. And a supplier. Are you looking for the dark green numbers to go on a broad EdN waistline, or the EdN numerals to go on a plain dark green carriage? Do you need 'GUARD' and/or the EdN tonnage lettering for the ends?

Thanks Paul. EDN numerals for a dark green coach I think. I’ll take your advice for what’s needed for an ex MGW 6w c1955

[Westcorkrailway]

An interesting one posted by Ed O’Neill on Facebook. Shows 90 and 800 as “sanctioned for scrap” !

[Mol_PMB]

Interesting - I’m surprised it’s undated though I’m sure the date could be estimated based on the list. 
With 90 shown at Fermoy and 800 at Thurles I assume that ‘Depot’ is the place they are stored, rather than an allocation as a working loco. 
In which case they were already set aside bi CIE for preservation and perhaps it was necessary to sanction them for scrap so that they could be disposed of for preservation? 

[Galteemore]

It’s plausible that scrapping was considered. 800 was in the process of being dismantled when it was decided to save her - several parts had been removed and had to be reinstated. This document is probably dated c1960 as GNR 150 is listed - this was a very early casualty of the CIE takeover of GN stock. 

[GSWR 90]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

It’s plausible that scrapping was considered. 800 was in the process of being dismantled when it was decided to save her - several parts had been removed and had to be reinstated. This document is probably dated c1960 as GNR 150 is listed - this was a very early casualty of the CIE takeover of GN stock. 

As far as I can tell, 90 was withdrawn in October 1959 along with 100. 90 was reinstated for the IRRS railtour to Courtmacsherry in August 1960; it was still used until around October 1961. The IRRS then negotiated with CIÉ in late 1961-early 1962 to have it put on display. So since it was withdrawn twice, and the first time it was out of use for quite a while, it's very possible CIÉ genuinely wanted to get rid of it at some point – but the fact that the location is Fermoy implies that it was already on display by the time that letter was written.

Edited Sunday at 09:22 by GSWR 90

[Westcorkrailway]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Interesting - I’m surprised it’s undated though I’m sure the date could be estimated based on the list. 
With 90 shown at Fermoy and 800 at Thurles I assume that ‘Depot’ is the place they are stored, rather than an allocation as a working loco. 
In which case they were already set aside bi CIE for preservation and perhaps it was necessary to sanction them for scrap so that they could be disposed of for preservation? 

90 was saved by a lobby of IRRS members at the time. It was small, very old, and wasn’t worth as much in terms of scrap value! The IRRS of course also managed to convince CIE to do a half baked overhaul of 90 which allowed to work for 6 months.

 

if I was to guess this letter dated from mid 1961. As around that time the 1961 all Ireland tour had used a handful of these locos. And by November 1961 - 90 was refurbished at inchicore 

 

 

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, GSWR 90 said:

As far as I can tell, 90 was withdrawn in October 1959 along with 100. 90 was reinstated for the IRRS railtour to Courtmacsherry in August 1960; it was still used until around October 1961. The IRRS then negotiated with CIÉ in late 1961-early 1962 to have it put on display. So since it was withdrawn twice, and the first time it was out of use for quite a while, it's very possible CIÉ genuinely wanted to get rid of it at some point – but the fact that the location is Fermoy implies that it was already on display by the time that letter was written.

Also worth remembering that such organisations as CIE were a little less monolithic in those days. There was still a little scope for employee deviancy…..this was certainly how BCDR 30 survived. The price of copper had soared and the UTA accountants wanted to scrap it. Harold Houston at York Road arranged for 230 as it then was to be hidden at Cookstown Junction shed until the copper market stabilised ! 

[Westcorkrailway]

https://flic.kr/p/2pwdkLN

90 in inchicore, must have been there since around the time the west cork closed 

 

https://flic.kr/p/2qUUb7w

90 on the way to Fermoy on st Patrick’s day 1962! 
 

800 in Thurles June 1961

https://flic.kr/p/2pry8aH

In Adelaide in September 1961

https://flic.kr/p/2qUTqag

801 in June 1961 

https://flic.kr/p/2psSqf4

301 in September 1961

https://flic.kr/p/2qUML9k

 

 

 

 

[Mayner]

6 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Also worth remembering that such organisations as CIE were a little less monolithic in those days. There was still a little scope for employee deviancy…..this was certainly how BCDR 30 survived. The price of copper had soared and the UTA accountants wanted to scrap it. Harold Houston at York Road arranged for 230 as it then was to be hidden at Cookstown Junction shed until the copper market stabilised ! 

Probabably still goes on, I understand that about 30 years ago loco maintenance staff at Inchacore were severely pissed off when bogies from withdrawn 001 Class locos kept as spares were scrapped without consulting maintenance during a scrap drive. Often stopped/withdrawn locos/rolling stock are used as a source of spares, with usable parts removed 'as required" rather than removed and stored.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

17 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Probabably still goes on, I understand that about 30 years ago loco maintenance staff at Inchacore were severely pissed off when bogies from withdrawn 001 Class locos kept as spares were scrapped without consulting maintenance during a scrap drive. Often stopped/withdrawn locos/rolling stock are used as a source of spares, with usable parts removed 'as required" rather than removed and stored.

 

The spare non push pull 201s are used like this due to long wait times for EMD parts 

 

2609 was also used like this until it was recently taken away from Cork. My understanding is that in inchicore it was also stripped of anything that could be used and then given to the scrap man 

[Broithe]

14 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Probabably still goes on, I understand that about 30 years ago loco maintenance staff at Inchacore were severely pissed off when bogies from withdrawn 001 Class locos kept as spares were scrapped without consulting maintenance during a scrap drive. Often stopped/withdrawn locos/rolling stock are used as a source of spares, with usable parts removed 'as required" rather than removed and stored.

 

It goes on everywhere. When I had a 'proper job', I had an old pressure vessel that had been used for development work and became surplus. I saved it from scrapping and it was used for all sorts of work for a good few years after, but it was spotted by a 'seagull manager' who declared it made the place look untidy and must be scrapped. I bet him £10 that we would buy another one within a year.

It was just six weeks later when one blew up on site and a spare vessel was urgently needed. For various reasons, including general disorganisation, factory closures and a general history of not paying bills, it took about eight months to get one.

I never got the ten quid.

[Westcorkrailway]

329 

[Galteemore]

One of the most glaring gaps in Irish preservation is the absence of a ‘southern’ 4-4-0. This would have done nicely !