Rob R Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) Following on from the excellent talk last night I thought I would post up what little I have gathered about the wagonry of the erstwhile SL&NCR. I have no primary sources, just the late Mr Sprink's books and keen eye when trawling through the internet. The IRRS of course does have a small selection of Manorhamilton drawings available in the SLNCR Wagon Compendium, absolutely invaluable but as is so often the way with these it raises almost as many questions as it answers! I suspect most, if not all the SLNCR goods vehicles were rebuilt, probably more than once, so it is likely that there were 153 unique and very individual wagons at the end. I am slowly compiling a spread sheet,trying to match numbers to wagon types as well as indexing known photos. It will be some time before this is anything like presentable but in the meantime I will try and outline the different varieties of wagons that were running in the SLNCR last 30 years or so. The starting point for any research is the list of extant wagons at closure to be found in the Sprinks history. This gives an overview of the surviving wagons and their numbers but only breaks things down to a basic description such as Opens, Cattle, Vans etc. II must thank Ernie for his excellent collection of SLNCR photos on Flickr and I hope he doesn't mind if I use a few here. To start with I will pick the low hanging fruit - the Open wagons. The Sprinks list gives the numbers of the surviving 30 vehicles and from photos I have identified 6 more which faded from the scene before the end. I have identified 6 types of open wagons including the 6 wheel P Way wagons. The numbers quoted below are those I have confirmed from photographic evidence. 4 1/2 ton 3 plank No 1 Illustrated in the Sprinks album 7 ton 3 plank Nos 3, 7, 9, 23 7 ton 3 plank dropside Nos 143, 145, 148 7 ton 4 plank Nos 3, 67, 133, 134, 137, 139, 196, 198 Note the buffers differ to the unidentified example above. 7 ton 3 plank drop end "Flat Truck for Road Vehicles" No 201 possibly more, an unidentified vehicle shown here. Similar to, possibly modified from, the 3 plank. The chain on the end door latch is clearly visible. Drawing has only 1 side post, this (and possibly 197) has 2. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507893712/in/album-72177720314924700 201 - seems to match the drawing https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507892097/in/album-72177720314924700 Possibly 197 The IRRS Drawing Compendium has the Manorhamilton GA of these vehicles. 6w P Way Nos 5, 25 No 5 illustrated in the Spinks history book and else where. The IRRS Drawing Compendium has the Manorhamilton GA of these vehicles. That's it for now. Please feel free to add anything else you can and please don't hold your breath for the next installment because vans and cattle seem to be a lot more complicated. Rob Edited January 19 by Rob R Additional information. 8
Mol_PMB Posted January 18 Posted January 18 Excellent post, thank you! I look forward to the next installments once you have worked them out. 3
Colonel Posted January 19 Posted January 19 SLNCR wagons all seem to have lots of chunky details. Remember using a lot of 60 and 80 thou microstrip when building mine (in 7mm scale) 1 1
Rob R Posted January 19 Author Posted January 19 Cattle Wagons Mr Sprinks says there were 68 7 ton and 2 6 ton Cattle Wagons at the end. Photos show a bewildering variety of designs and details when you take a closer look, so bite sized chunks is the way to go I think, so first off:- Open Cattle Wagons (Crate Wagons) The IRRS SL&NCR wagon compendium has just one Cattle Wagon drawing, Standard Covered Cattle Wagon, signed off by Mr Sparks 19/11/20. On this drawing there is a note:- "Brake gear, Underframe Ironwork and Corner Straps, etc to be re-used for all Crate Wagons (Nos 36 to 65) re-built to this design" So we know that in 1920 there were 30 Open Cattle wagons numbered in one block and a plan to rebuild to a standard design. I suspect with the departure of Mr Sparks that plan, to an extent, fell by the wayside. The majority seem to have been rebuilt, but not necessarily to the intended design and I will deal with them in the next installment. Photos of Sligo Open Cattle wagons are a bit thin on the ground but Ernie has come to the rescue again (thank you). This wonderful Casserley view of Hazelwood in 1929 is the best view I have found showing the number, 52 in this case. I am very grateful that Manorhamilton copied the GNR practice of placing the number on the ends as well as the side! The other view which is dated 22nd April 1953 does not show the number but the details differ enough to presume it is not the same vehicle and there is a photo of what may be 52 as rebuilt in the next installment. Taken the same day Rebuilt Open Cattle wagons next (as and when) 5 1
Colonel Posted January 20 Posted January 20 Have long wondered about Sligo cattle wagons because I built mine using Alphagraphix card kits as drawings. Made several as a batch build, but they've always seemed very small compared to similar types like box vans. Studying photos in the Sprinks book, there only seems to be one size, but maybe the AlphaG one is the six ton version, which seemed to disappear earlier? 1 1
Galteemore Posted January 20 Posted January 20 7 minutes ago, Colonel said: Have long wondered about Sligo cattle wagons because I built mine using Alphagraphix card kits as drawings. Made several as a batch build, but they've always seemed very small compared to similar types like box vans. Studying photos in the Sprinks book, there only seems to be one size, but maybe the AlphaG one is the six ton version, which seemed to disappear earlier? There are various sizes I think. I found a pic in my dads collection which seems smaller than others 5 2
Mol_PMB Posted January 20 Posted January 20 If you search on Flickr within the IRRS archive for SLNCR you’ll get a few hundred images at least. A fair proportion of those include cattle wagons, mostly with legible numbers, and several types. Usually the wagons aren’t the main subject of the pic but still useful views. 1
leslie10646 Posted January 20 Posted January 20 For what it is worth, mine is built on a 9ft wheelbase, copying my GNR one. When we did it, Richard had not scanned the SLNCR wagon book. We used photographs available to us. The wagon IS shorter than any of my vans (on 9ft6in or 10ft wheelbases), even the 9 ton one is larger. I think, from memory of photos I've seen that large cattle wagons didn't make an appearance until the CIE 1948 ones which seem huge beside the tiny GN one. In one of his writings, the late Kevin Murray remarked on how tiny and box-like were Irish wagons in general. 3
Rob R Posted January 20 Author Posted January 20 There seems to be a bit of optical distortion on the photo of 57. The wheels are not round by a fair margin with the whole wagon appearing shorter than it really is.
jhb171achill Posted January 20 Posted January 20 3 hours ago, leslie10646 said: For what it is worth, mine is built on a 9ft wheelbase, copying my GNR one. When we did it, Richard had not scanned the SLNCR wagon book. We used photographs available to us. The wagon IS shorter than any of my vans (on 9ft6in or 10ft wheelbases), even the 9 ton one is larger. I think, from memory of photos I've seen that large cattle wagons didn't make an appearance until the CIE 1948 ones which seem huge beside the tiny GN one. In one of his writings, the late Kevin Murray remarked on how tiny and box-like were Irish wagons in general. This is true; the long-wheelbase ones commonly used in Britain were entirely unknown on any Irish line (as were long-wheelbase horse boxes). This is why repainted LMS cattle wagons just won’t do! As always, the waggonage of Provincial Leslie are in cattle terms, literally the only show in town. 2 1
MOGUL Posted January 20 Posted January 20 On 19/1/2026 at 9:25 AM, Rob R said: Cattle Wagons Mr Sprinks says there were 68 7 ton and 2 6 ton Cattle Wagons at the end. Photos show a bewildering variety of designs and details when you take a closer look, so bite sized chunks is the way to go I think, so first off:- Open Cattle Wagons (Crate Wagons) The IRRS SL&NCR wagon compendium has just one Cattle Wagon drawing, Standard Covered Cattle Wagon, signed off by Mr Sparks 19/11/20. On this drawing there is a note:- "Brake gear, Underframe Ironwork and Corner Straps, etc to be re-used for all Crate Wagons (Nos 36 to 65) re-built to this design" So we know that in 1920 there were 30 Open Cattle wagons numbered in one block and a plan to rebuild to a standard design. I suspect with the departure of Mr Sparks that plan, to an extent, fell by the wayside. The majority seem to have been rebuilt, but not necessarily to the intended design and I will deal with them in the next installment. Photos of Sligo Open Cattle wagons are a bit thin on the ground but Ernie has come to the rescue again (thank you). This wonderful Casserley view of Hazelwood in 1929 is the best view I have found showing the number, 52 in this case. I am very grateful that Manorhamilton copied the GNR practice of placing the number on the ends as well as the side! The other view which is dated 22nd April 1953 does not show the number but the details differ enough to presume it is not the same vehicle and there is a photo of what may be 52 as rebuilt in the next installment. Taken the same day Rebuilt Open Cattle wagons next (as and when) Not an exact match, but the NER V4 Brake Van recently announced by TMC looks fairly similar to SLNCR No.6: https://www.themodelcentre.com/article/new-tmc-exclusive-ner-v4-brake-van-revealed?srsltid=AfmBOooSYrR7TJO0qAloJShZ5KjukJWibOsCsiAM56ou7pSdM_uTozmU 1
leslie10646 Posted January 20 Posted January 20 I think that the NER one is actually shorter and of course has vertical planks (a thin Plasticard overlay might hide it?) where the SLNCR one has horizontal ones. Also it would need doors - more Plasticard ...... Brake Van No.6 is a remarkably large-looking (sturdy even) brake and looks like the SLNCR looked after their guards - at least when they were sent out in this one!!!!! What do the experts think? 1
Rob R Posted January 20 Author Posted January 20 If you must start from a rtr one then cutting down a hornby LMS BV might be easier (and cheaper!). No use to me, I need something 119% bigger.... 2 1
Mayner Posted January 20 Posted January 20 As far as I recall cattle wagon length was increased to 14' over headstocks as a result of a Board of Trade (animal welfare) requirement during the 1890s and later adapted as an Irish Railway Clearing House Standard. While covered wagons appear to have been gradually in creased from 14' to 15'2" to 16'11" the standard for an Irish cattle wagon remained 14' until CIE introduced its longer KN wagons. Its just about possible that some earlier shorter wagons may have survived on the cash strapped SLNCR, the MGW introduced some 13'6" convertibles in the early 1890s shortly before the BOT "changed the rules" and its possible the SLNCR may have found itself in a similar perdicament and may have been allowed to continue using the shorter wagons until they were due for 'renewal/replacement" which may have been a long time with the SLNCR. Cattle wagons are likely to have remained at 14' in order to avoid the wholesale replacement of loading pens spaced for 14' wagons, in practice stations that handed cattle traffic tended to have a long loading bank with a continuous fence on the rear (non-rail side) and sometimes two or three pens close to one end of the bank (Carlow had stoned walled pens, though generally fences and pens formed in old rail on GS/CIE, though sometimes old sleepers. 3 3
Colonel Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Interesting stuff, though it is the height of the Alphagraphix wagon kit that I now wonder about, as it seems low compared to any photos in the Sprinks album.
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 Mr Spark's "Standard Cattle Wagon" drawing of 1920 gives a 9ft wheelbase, 15ft 6in over headstocks and 11ft 1 1/2 high. Not huge but not unusually small either. The "Standard Wagon Underframe" drawing is pretty much the same, with a note that it was also used on the "Crate Wagons" ie open cattle. Obviously it would be a bit rash to say all SLNCR cattle wagons were the same, but as Ernie kindly shows below, old age and saggy springs also play a part. 3 1
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 The HMRS drawing of the Waterford and Limerick "Iron Cattle Wagon Underframe" of 1894 shows 14ft over Headstocks on a 8ft 6in wheelbase. The MGWR open cattle wagon of 1894 is 14ft 2in over headstocks on a 8ft wheelbase. The C&MDR cattle wagon (undated) is 15ft 8 over headstocks on a 9ft 2in wheelbase. The "standard" Sligo cattle wagon wasn't much different to the norm. 1 1
Irishswissernie Posted January 21 Posted January 21 I have added to my Archive Topic some views at Manorhamilton showing rolling stock, might be some new numbers. 3
Mol_PMB Posted January 21 Posted January 21 1 minute ago, Irishswissernie said: I have added to my Archive Topic some views at Manorhamilton showing rolling stock, might be some new numbers. Very nice. Cattle wagons 117 and 59 shown in those images are clearly a different design with more vertical ribs on the sides. 1
Mol_PMB Posted January 21 Posted January 21 The SLNCR cattle wagons in these IRRS images all look moderately 'standard', although some have the numbers on the sides and others on boards just under the roof: No.65: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509202374/ No.104: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253261304/ No.132: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511366156/ Number not visible: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508883771/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53500846351/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253260779/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53501149394/ But No.132 seen here is entirely different, and has a shape more in common with a convertible van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783401/ 3
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 (edited) Thank you Ernie, Van 100 is a new one for the list and a much better view of 59. The Sparks "Standard Cattle Wagon" drawing shows 2 stanchions per quarter panel as per 59 and 117 but that was going to be part 3..... Please keep them coming. If only we could go back for a day with a digital camera and a flipping great big memory card..............(and batteries!) Mol-PB you have of course spotted the elephant in the room. Sprinks mentions that the number 27 appears on a cattle wagon and a van but here we have a pair of 132 cattle wagons. Edited January 21 by Rob R spelling 3
Mol_PMB Posted January 21 Posted January 21 52 minutes ago, Rob R said: The HMRS drawing of the Waterford and Limerick "Iron Cattle Wagon Underframe" of 1894 shows 14ft over Headstocks on a 8ft 6in wheelbase. The MGWR open cattle wagon of 1894 is 14ft 2in over headstocks on a 8ft wheelbase. The C&MDR cattle wagon (undated) is 15ft 8 over headstocks on a 9ft 2in wheelbase. The "standard" Sligo cattle wagon wasn't much different to the norm. There's a sketch of GSR cattle wagon number 7592 (most likely ex-GSWR?) in 'The Farranfore to Valentia Harbour Railway vol.2' (O'Sullivan) which gives a body length over corner pillars of 174.5" which is just over 14'6". The sketch appears to be based on measurements of a wagon rather than an official drawing. Given that the corner pillars are partly beyond the headstocks I suspect this is also close to 14'0" over headstocks. 1
Northroader Posted January 21 Posted January 21 I’ve been taking an interest in a NCC cattle van featured in the New Irish Lines for May 2023. It looks a bit odd because it has a nearly 14’6” body on 16’ solebars, so there’s quite step at the ends. The wheelbase is 9’ and its vac fitted. I guessed possibly it was an old body that had a lengthened chassis and wheelbase done when it had vac brakes added? 1
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 They certainly look like someone wanted Vac Fitted (they have Vac Cylinders, not just through pipes) cattle wagons on the cheap. A traditional sized body on a re-purposed, already fitted underframe. No doubt the paper work that would help us identify the thought processes behind this batch went up in smoke back in 1941. Different, would make an interesting model. 2
Antony Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Her are three drawings - and there's more! When the SLNCR closed, Des Coakham bought all the drawings! Myself, Andy Crockart and Derek Young sorted them out in Des's loft. After he died, I thought most of them went to Headhunter's Museum. However, Andy had quite a collection which is from where I've got these. Some are still in his house and some are at Whitehead Railway museum (RPSI) 7 1 3 1
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 Antony, Thank you very much. An absolute gold mine. When the dust has settled do you mind if I copy them into a dedicated thread in the resources section so they are easier to find in the future? The SL&NCR is rapidly becoming one of the best documented Irish lines. 2 1
Antony Posted January 21 Posted January 21 3 hours ago, Rob R said: When the dust has settled do you mind if I copy them into a dedicated thread in the resources section so they are easier to find in the future? Yes, of course. 1
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 Just noticed. The drawing of the High side wagon shows 5 planks. The unidentified wagon to the right of 143 that I posted above shows a 5 plank end whereas almost all the later views of these wagons show 4 wider planks. 1
Antony Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Here are a couple of pages from Des Coakham's sketch book relating to SLNCR cattle wagons. The GBV is a bonus! (I've assumed the second page does actually relate to the first). His sketchbooks are a real treat and display his dedication and enthusiasm. 5 1
Rob R Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 (edited) Thank you once again. The second sketch looks to me as if it is details for coach No 4? Will look on the big screen tomorrow, phone isn't the best place for that sort of work. Edited January 21 by Rob R
Galteemore Posted January 21 Posted January 21 Just now, Rob R said: Thank you once again. The second sketch looks to me as if it is details for coach No 4? Will look on the big screen tomorrow, phone isn't the best place for that sort of work. Yes, he rather liked coach 4. As do I - first SLNC coach I modelled! 1
Horsetan Posted January 21 Posted January 21 16 hours ago, Rob R said: ....Obviously it would be a bit rash to say all SLNCR cattle wagons were the same, but as Ernie kindly shows below, old age and saggy springs also play a part. It's not just the springs which are saggy; parts of the body structure are too....
.png.c363cdf5c3fb7955cd92a55eb6dbbae0.png){kind=logo}
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now