Brass kits for Irish prototypes

[jhb171achill]

Having arrived very late indeed to the party as far as brass is concerned, I see that manufacturers of this type of kit are becoming fewer and fewer, and those folks I've got to know in recent times who are old hands at this dark art tell me that they feel they're the last generation that will do such things, has me thinking.

Worsley is packing up. They had a good range of Irish stuff. SSM have less available than they used to. Their Bredin thirds and composites seem to no longer be available - and just when the IRM 800 class is about to appear too! They'd have been ideal.

There are an impressive number of manufacturers of brass kits over in Starmerland, but they are either too expensive or too complex for anyone but the experienced, or both. Plus, even there they seem to be thinning out. I found one website online - can't remember which - and it said they were taking no new orders and packing up due to retirement. Plus, in almost every case, the prototypes offered look no more like anything that ever ran in any corner of this island, than an ICR looks like the Lartigue.

So - to the future. Many brassers that I know are already of the view that this medium is a dinosaur about to die out. I dunno, but simply to parrot-like repeat what they say, the feeling seems to be that 3D is absolutely the future, and indeed we've seen this medium going from completely unacceptably crude to very high-end in a very short few years. The future for 3D seems very much assured and when we see the excellent quality from the likes of CK Prints, who could argue that.

So, my brass-ish thoughts. I spent a few evenings bumbling about on the internet to see what I could find. The answer was nothing whatsoever that even with considerable alteration and artistic licence would be the slightest use to any Irish modeller - other than the REMAINING Studio Scale kits, and this:

https://mousa-models.co.uk/scales/4mm-scale/coaches/bck1671-4-nsr-family-saloon/?v=25400724d737

A very GSWR-esque design; would go well with SSM GSWR kits as a first class saloon, or with "Genesis" six-wheelers, as being a British prototype it would be the same "narrow gauge" width, as all things from that area. They do many other kits from the same era, but they are of Midland (England) prototypes, so they are far too long and have curved ends - not remotely like anything here.

Personally I am not interested in attempting a locomotive. I won't live long enough to finish it at my rate of output. As for wagons, British wagon design has always been quite unlike any company here, with the exception of many standard OPEN wagons, and I suppose much modern container stuff. Even British Rail 1960s palvans weren't like ours. So I have therefore drawn a blank regarding wagon stock.

With the superb output of Provincial / CK Prints, SSM, IFM and of course IRM, I don't think there's any point in pursuing wagons in brass, but as for carriages - I wonder does anyone know of any brass kit etch makers who produce anything that would suit any pre-CIE / UTA Irish company?

And finally, any thoughts on getting etches MADE for some sort of prototype HERE? Doubtless the market would be minute, with a production run possibly of less than ten items. Can things like this be done?

Thoughts?

 

[Andy Cundick]

Judith Edge do the NCC Harland and Wolff  in both LMS and NCC  form,went together well even though i don't have a use for it Andy

[jhb171achill]

I've seen that website and pics of models made up - they look very well indeed. I think it would be more carriages I'd be looking for. Some LMS types were similar to those of the NCC, of course.

[Darius43]

Wizard Models sell the former Comet range of brass coach sides, some of which may be suitable for a conversion or two…

Whilst not brass, I have used MTK punched aluminium coach kits to make ex LMS/NCC coaches…

Cheers

Darius

[jhb171achill]

Those look extremely well, Darius.

[Horsetan]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

....does anyone know of any brass kit etch makers who produce anything that would suit any pre-CIE / UTA Irish company?...

In a word, no. There's nothing other than SSM and maybe the occasional batch run by @Maynerfocusing on purely Irish stock. The Bredin kits might become available again if Des can be assured of between minimum 6 and 10 orders - preferably paid-for upfront - for each type. I'm just disappointed to have missed out on a Bredin 3rd; that avenue is dead unless anyone has an unbuilt kit they might sell.

Etching still has a place because nothing else represents sheet metal as well as...sheet metal!

Edited Monday at 20:48 by Horsetan

[Tullygrainey]

Mousa Models do actually offer etched kits for Irish coaches. Finding the list is the hard bit. First you need to be signed into the Mousa site. Then,

Starting from the menu bar on the home page choose

- Scales

- Lists

- Coach etching lists, Irish

- Download now

You should get this list.

 

I've built the 3 BCDR coaches. They make up into nice models. Don't expect instructions though

Alan

Edited Monday at 22:17 by Tullygrainey

[Horsetan]

34 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

Mousa Models do actually offer etched kits for Irish coaches. Finding the list is the hard bit. First you need to be signed into the Mousa site. Then,

Starting from the menu bar on the home page choose

- Scales

- Lists

- Coach etching lists, Irish

- Download now

You should get this list.

 

I've built the 3 BCDR coaches. They make up into nice models. Don't expect instructions though

Alan

Ah, I forgot Bill Bedford still had a few etches. He used to do rather more than that, but never any instructions.

I ran into Bill at ExpoEM; his focus is on 3D prints rather than etches. His output seems to be quite low these days and he hasn't been in the best of health in recent years.

I'm hoping he might revisit his experimental range of 3D printed P4 driving wheels in the next few years, as there's one type I particularly need.

[Colonel]

You could always change to 7mm scale JD - Alphagraphix do a good range of six wheelers, plus their card kits of course

 Can only agree with you on the way etched kits seem to be going, however, if it is coaches you want, what about plasticard? Basic tools only are needed - pencil, ruler, snap off bladed craft knife, plus time of course.

 The worst job with scratchbuilding coaches is marking out, then cutting out the sides and (especially) windows. A bit tedious and repetitive, likewise adding toplights and/or panelling from microstrip. Plastic seats are available and so also must be bogies, buffers and the like. Roofs can be something solid, like balsa, sanded to shape.

 Maybe worth a try?

[Mol_PMB]

2 hours ago, Colonel said:

You could always change to 7mm scale JD - Alphagraphix do a good range of six wheelers, plus their card kits of course

 Can only agree with you on the way etched kits seem to be going, however, if it is coaches you want, what about plasticard? Basic tools only are needed - pencil, ruler, snap off bladed craft knife, plus time of course.

 The worst job with scratchbuilding coaches is marking out, then cutting out the sides and (especially) windows. A bit tedious and repetitive, likewise adding toplights and/or panelling from microstrip. Plastic seats are available and so also must be bogies, buffers and the like. Roofs can be something solid, like balsa, sanded to shape.

 Maybe worth a try?

We're still hoping that Alphagraphix will produce some MGWR six wheelers in 4mm scale. 

My GSWR 50' bogie coach etches are complete and will be sent to me soon. I put them on hold while I was away on holiday. I'll do a thread on the build and there will be an opportunity for others to buy them direct from the etchers.

[commerlad]

As this new thread has started, I will merely add,

That I am still waiting on Allen Doherty to get back to me, with information and more importantly price.

[GSR 800]

7 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

We're still hoping that Alphagraphix will produce some MGWR six wheelers in 4mm scale. 

My GSWR 50' bogie coach etches are complete and will be sent to me soon. I put them on hold while I was away on holiday. I'll do a thread on the build and there will be an opportunity for others to buy them direct from the etchers.

Sent Roger an email this morning so hopefully we'll have an update soon!

Edited yesterday at 07:21 by GSR 800

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

And finally, any thoughts on getting etches MADE for some sort of prototype HERE? Doubtless the market would be minute, with a production run possibly of less than ten items. Can things like this be done?

Thoughts?

There are a number of businesses in the UK that will produce one off or small production runs; MOL_PMB E401 & GSWR Bogie Coach are excellent examples. The etcher has a one off fee for setting up a photo tool & a charge per sheet of metal. 

Basically a case of finding a designer capable of preparing the artwork/CAD for the planned model or developing the CAD skills yourself https://ppdltd.com/artwork-guide.html. I basically followed the artwork guide on the PPD  site https://ppdltd.com/artwork-guide.html using a cheap CAD package and a lot of trial and error.

At the end of the day it takes me a similar amount of time to prepare the artwork for an etched model as it would take me to transfer/mark out a design from a drawing to a set of components on a sheet of metal or plasticard, the big advantage is that a set of etched parts largely avoids the tedious cutting out & finishing process.

From memory one off tooling cost for an A4 sheet of metal worked out round £25-30, etched sheet of 0.4 brass £15 approx.

Personally I think sheet metal is superior to an injected molded plastic (or 3D printed) for a model of a flush side coach. 

These day I mainly assemble etched/3D printed models to my own design, my hands are not as steady as they once were and generally faster than scratchbuilding for multiple items.

Though scratchbuilding in plasticard should not be dismissed for one off or unusual items (David Jenkinsons "Carriage Modelling Made Easy" is an inspiration, better than waiting in anticipation of someone releasing a RTR model. 

"Back in the day" 30 or so years ago I scratchbuilt a MGWR goods brake and a pair of IRCH "Standard Open" wagons using plasticard, applying individual rivets to the brake and cast detail parts to the wagons, it took me about a year & opens still havent fitted brake gear to the opens. More recently I produced a batch of one piece C&L open wagon bodies cast in resin in a rubber mould using a master formed using etched brass parts.  David (the Colonel) recently described casting covered wagon/van bodies in resin from plasticard masters.

 

[Maitland]

I'm just getting started with 3D printing, but I'm beginning to understand the limitations, particularly with low end printers. I'm forming an idea that you need to use multiple technologies, exploiting the characteristics of each and not trying to enter elephants for the Grand National or ferrets pull logs around. And when it comes to finicky detail in the nearly- flat, etched metal is best. Cavan and Leitrim or Leek and Manifold end platform railings would be remarkable in resin (though I bet someone's done it), but diesel bodies or semi- domed carriage roofs are begging for resin. 

It also strikes me that railway modelling is a generational thing, and that the boom from the 70s to present is unsustainable. Many of us are approaching or beyond retirement age, and many younger people just haven't got the time, space or disposable income for what can be an expensive hobby. House prices and childcare costs perhaps. The next generation of modellers may well be thrown back on their own resources, and kitchen- table modelling (from recycled scrap like the 40s- 50s) could be the future. So things that "democratise" modelling could be useful. The drift of 3D printers towards affordable is encouraging, so can something similar be done for etched metal?

So in quite another context I came across a  DIY photoresist exposer for PCBs. It uses standard mechanism components as used in 3D printers. The electronic required is widely and cheaply available, cheaper than when the project was active 8 years ago. It needs upgrading to double- sided for metal etches. The project creator is still around, and much respected, having moved on to be the backbone of the grbHal CNC controller project (he lives in Norway). I have many of the electronics and programming skills required to take the project on; I'm decidedly deficient in mechanical nous. I know little about precision etching, though my wife once tried to make marrow chutney with ferric chloride, believing it to be vinegar.

Any others here with interests in that direction? I used to be in MERG but seceded because they seemed to get a bit stuck in a rut.

[lucas]

There is also an EU-based etcher I have in the past, Hauler Ltd in the Czech Republic (https://www.etchworks.eu). Their standard sizes and artwork requirements are a bit different from PPD but it's not too difficult to convert.

I've always used the old Hollywood Foundry guides to creating artwork. They don't seem to be available online anymore but I'll upload my copies to the resources section later this afternoon.

 

Of all the etched kits out there, I reckon only a small portion of those have been digitised, while I doubt any etching place will accept any new artwork in anything other than a digital format these days. So any slight tweak or alteration, or moving to a new etcher, or whatever else would probably require digitising the whole thing. I reckon this might well be one of the reasons we're seeing some etched kits disappearing.

Many of the people who were skilled in designing hand drawn etched kits in the past may not be familiar with the digital methods used today. I think we could well see an uptick eventually as the amount of digital artwork starts to fill the gaps left by the shrinking number of hand drawn kits.

Of course there are many other reasons such as the rapid improvements in 3D-printing, the increasing number and detail of RTR models, etc.

 

Personally I'd love to have a go at making some etched kits at some point, although I have too many other projects going on right now.

[Northroader]

Have you tried Connoisseur models? Mainly 7mm, but Jim does a few 4mm, and his kits are not overly complicated, and decent value.

www.jimmcgeown.com

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Northroader

[Mol_PMB]

I've built a lot of etched kits, and designed a few.

One thing I would say is that to design a good etched kit takes a lot of time and expense, and for me the stages include:

Research - acquiring drawings and photos (often at a money cost as well as time), understanding the history of the vehicle and the variations.

Model Planning - which thicknesses and materials will be used? What other parts (detail castings, wheels, etc) are needed, and are they available? How will the parts go together, what can be done to align them and strengthen the assembly? Where are multiple layers needed to capture the contours of the prototype? How I can I help the builder assemble it neatly, e.g. access to solder parts from the inside. How can the model be split into bolt-together sub-assemblies so it easier to paint? Am I going to include interior detail? How can I make it suitable for 16.5mm gauge as well as 21mm?

Etch Design - actually drawing up the parts in CAD or other artwork package (I use CorelDraw) making sure that the dimensions and details are correct, the correct allowances for kerf and fold lines. Placing and tabbing the parts in a fret that will be strong enough to handle in the manufacturing process, but also easy to cut the parts from when building it. Can I make provision for variants in the prototype? 

At that point I can create a PDF of the artwork to send to the etchers. I use Arch60 (formerly 4D Modelshop) and find their service, quality and speed to be excellent. They are a bit more expensive than some, but I think it's worth it because the price of the etches is relatively small compared to the total effort I put in. They will also check the artwork and sometimes make some recommendations for minor changes to ease manufacture or reduce the risk of damage when handling. There are a number of one-off setup charges such as making the filmwork before the first etch can be produced.

In an ideal world the first etch is perfect, but in practice there may be minor errors or omissions. These are usually only found when building (or attempting to build) the model. If the errors are not tolerable, there's another loop of editing the artwork, paying for some more filmwork, and second variant of the etch.

By this time I've probably spent at least a couple of hundred pounds and perhaps 50 hours of my time. In my day job my employer charges me out at £142+VAT per hour (I don't get anything like that myself!), but even at minimum wage that time would be worth over £500. Fortunately, modelling is my hobby and I enjoy designing things, so I don't charge myself.

And what have I got? One, maybe two nice models of an unusual prototype, and the enjoyment and satisfaction of the process. It's very satisfying when it all goes together as planned, but if not there can be frustrations!

 

If you're just after a set of etched sides for a coach and nothing else, then the process is rather simpler and quicker, but basically the same stages are still required.  

 

I don't do this on any sort of commercial basis and I wouldn't want to; I've got plenty of other things to keep me busy in life. But I do allow others to order copies of my etches from Arch60 and a few members of the forum have done that. One day I hope to see some other examples of models built from my etches and I hope they go together well and don't cause so much frustration that they end up in the bin. I make no money at all from these sales. Equally, I don't provide any sort of warranty or after-sales service.

Another thing that takes a lot of time is writing good, illustrated instructions. Not necessary if I'm building only for myself, but these are needed if others want to build the model. Posting them on here also allows people to see what's involved in building the model and to decide whether it's something they would like to try.

 

So, to design and make a good etched kit is a labour of love, and I'd only put this level of effort into something that I want for myself, and that is unlikely to be in IRM's medium-term plans.

Even if I was to do this on a commercial basis it's unlikely that the sales volume of a niche Irish model would ever come close to repaying the effort I put in to design the etch. I don't know how Allen Doherty made a business of it!

 

I've probably waffled on long enough now. For Irish prototypes, I've done the E401 class complete, and some alternative sides and roofs for the SSM GSWR 6-wheel coaches to make a sleeping car and a full brake (these need the SSM kit as a basis). 

In a week's time I'll have first etches for the GSWR 50' gangwayed open third to build. There were 10 of these built in 1902 and most lasted into the 1960s in traffic, with several modifications including the addition of lavatories to some, others converted to snack cars (which were also through-wired to run with AEC railcars), and some remaining as-built. One became a camping coach and two survived into preservation after departmental use. So it's a versatile prototype and I'll build at least two variants for myself.

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/19825-gswr-50-open-gangwayed-coaches/

What's on my radar for the future? No promises, I am prone to whims and changes of direction. But some of the more likely possibilities are:

• Alternative sides for the IRM Park Royal underframes, e.g. the 1954 conventional-bodied stock, or any of the laminates (I've draughted a couple already, but I'm wary here, it may be a gamble to avoid clashing with an IRM project)
• GSWR 'Big Boy' goods van and perhaps the flat wagons on the same chassis.
• Other carriage bodies similar to the GSWR 50' gangwayed open third, which could use the same chassis - obvious examples being a brake open third and a full brake.
• G601 class
• Wedgehead railcar (possibly a powered intermediate variant too?) but the design and desirability of this would be strongly influenced if IRM decided to do a normal AEC railcar.

Occasional flights of fancy lead the silly side of my brain towards:

• GSWR Ivatt 2-4-2T
• Other GSWR carriage types
• D301 class
• E421 class
• GSWR 0-6-0T 90 / 100
• GSWR single Fairlie (this is completely out of period and a real model design challenge, but I like Fairlies)
• CC1 (silly, I know!)
• Upscaling the E class to 7mm scale

But probably none of those will see the light of day.

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Much to think of there, folks. Mol, I'm intrigued by your 50ft coach; I would certainly take one of those etches if and when available from your supplier. Can I ask, will it be body on;y or will there be chassis, bogies, etc., with it?

 

[Westcorkrailway]

I’m thinking of doing an F6 myself, but that’s years down the road, and it likely won’t be a brass kit! 

[Mol_PMB]

8 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Much to think of there, folks. Mol, I'm intrigued by your 50ft coach; I would certainly take one of those etches if and when available from your supplier. Can I ask, will it be body on;y or will there be chassis, bogies, etc., with it?

 

It will include chassis, bogies and interior. 
The bogies are designed for 21mm gauge but could be modified for 16.5mm or you could replace with suitable RTR bogies often available as spares.