The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[jhb171achill]

He may have thought of if all right, but if he did, it never got any further than a thought. Jhb171senior's father was the chief draughtsman under Bredin and his own plans never had anything other than a 4.6.0.

 

However, had funding been available (which it wasn't), a fourth and fifth 800 class were on the cards. It is likely that they would have been named Deirdre (803) and Grainne (804).

 

There was, however, a 4.6.2T (TANK engine) design prepared by senior - I've a copy somewhere but can never find it! There would have been between 2 and 5 of these, and their planned stamping ground was to have been the DSER.

[GSR 800]

Chief draughtsman?

[jhb171achill]

Correct.....

[GSR 800]

not in the gsr days by any chance ...... or is it the CIE days...

[jhb171achill]

Both. He joined the GSWR in 1900 or 1901, and retired two weeks into the CIE era, having been in Inchicore throughout the 20 years of the GSR.

 

In terms of "might have beens", information passed down through the family included the above which I referred to, and a few other odds and ends, like a production run of Drumm trains, early talk of exploring other forms of electrification, and a specialised lorry design for carrying turf! Another was a standard design of 3ft gauge coach for the T & D, WCR, & C & L. Had this come into being, I believe it was to be based more or less along the design of the standard C & L balcony-end coach. However, it chould be added that this is pure speculation and no plan was ever drawn up, or design made; there was no money.

[GSR 800]

So did he prepare the drawings for the 800s?

[jhb171achill]

Indeed he did, GSR. And the passenger bodies for the Drumm trains (2nd lot), the Bredin coaches and various other things including several locomotive rebuilds.

[Mayner]

JHB.

 

The GSR appear to have been plans to develop a 2-4-4T as its final steam design. The proposal is mentioned in "A Decade of Steam", the view was that it was a well thought out modern design similar in principal to the LMS 2-6-4T locos.

 

Do you know if any drawings exist of this loco.

[jhb171achill]

I don't know for sure, Mayner, but I'm pretty sure they don't exist even if they were drawn up in outline.

 

Within my own family history there's no talk of it, not that this is proof it never happened, of course. As a "might-have-been", it might be expected to follow what was then the house style for new designs. Had it come into being it could have vaguely resembled a Stanier type of design, I would imagine.

 

What DID happen was that in early CIE times, when BR was researching the best ways to design their standard classes of steam locomotives, they wanted to take the best ideas from the LMS, LNER, SR and GWR. They extended their research to Ireland and consulted in detail with Inchicore. Family tradition has it that they took back with them some design features from the 800 class, but I've no idea which.

 

The 2.4.4T sounds like an excellent project for a "might-have-been" GSR / early CIE layout!

 

Now there's an idea.

[jhb171achill]

Here's a what-if layout scenario, based on things which might have happened - or indeed, were actively planne at one stage.

 

It's 1965-70, and steam as not been consigned to the bin. CIE has under it's ownership the following:

 

A large fleet of D class, as they were considered perfectly adequate.

A reasonable fleet of modernised J15s on secondary or shunting duties.

A fleet of fast modern 2.4.4.T locos for suburban and branch traffic

Five 800 class on the Cork line along with twin-engined Sulzer diesels and inherited ex-GNR diesels of American and German origins.

Ex GNR 4.6.0 steam locomotives on the Enterprise

A fleet of B113 types....

On the DSER and Waterford lines, ex-GSR 850 class 4.6.2T locomotives; these, along with the 2.4.4T types, and possibly a modern mixed traffic 2.6.0, being a standard "modern" GSR / CIE set of classes, the last of which would be destined to remain in traffic until about 1990....

[GSR 800]

What would it be like if the great famine had never happened,railway wise, with a population of 10 or 12 million?

[Garfield]

What would it be like if the great famine had never happened,railway wise, with a population of 10 or 12 million?

 

While the famine accounted for around a million dead, it was not the trigger for people leaving the country (although it caused a spike in numbers). Mass emigration was under way for a few decades prior to the Great Hunger, with around a million having left by the time it struck, so regardless of whether or not the famine occurred, the population would likely not have been much greater than it turned out to be.

[GSR 800]

Despite " mass emigration " before the famine the population was still growing by roughly 1 million a decade, mass emigration or not

[minister_for_hardship]

The population would have risen to unsustainable levels so there would certainly be emigration, no question, but more at a steady slower pace.

 

Perhaps things like many of the relief public works (roads/bridges/piers etc) would have been scaled down or not happened at all. Don't see railways being affected much, if at all.

Edited August 20, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[minister_for_hardship]

A fleet of B113 types....

 

Bet drivers would have loved those, horrible uncomfortable things by all accounts and serious lacking in the brakes staying on dept.

[Junctionmad]

What would it be like if the great famine had never happened,railway wise, with a population of 10 or 12 million?

 

a graph is always useful , I suspect the population would not have grown and the emigration in the 1900-> would have had the same net effect , the fall in population actually took well in excess of 50 years and was not all directly attributable to the famine

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Weshty]

So it's been 165 years since our population has been at present levels? Wow.

[jhb171achill]

Correct.

 

Emigration did exist prior to the famine (economic migration) but nothing like the post-1847 levels.

 

If there had been no famine, cue a double tracked Tralee & Dingle, with Beyer Garratts for the Glenagalt climb!

[jhb171achill]

The greatest "might have been" of all time has got to be the proposed Ulster & Connaught Railway, from Warrenpoint to Clifden. Nothing but a bridge at Keady was ever built of it.

 

It would have been 3ft gauge and along its tortuous and inevitably TOTALLY unremunerative meandering route it would linked the Clogher Valley and C & L.

 

Doubtless Indian or Lough Swilly style large tender locomotives would have been needed, but what an eternity it would have taken to cover the whole route. Probably not in a single day? Would the necessary large engines have managed the street running in Aughnacloy? There, for sure, is a highly imaginative layout crying out to be built!

[GSR 800]

Here's a what-if layout scenario, based on things which might have happened - or indeed, were actively planne at one stage.

 

It's 1965-70, and steam as not been consigned to the bin. CIE has under it's ownership the following:

 

A large fleet of D class, as they were considered perfectly adequate.

A reasonable fleet of modernised J15s on secondary or shunting duties.

A fleet of fast modern 2.4.4.T locos for suburban and branch traffic

Five 800 class on the Cork line along with twin-engined Sulzer diesels and inherited ex-GNR diesels of American and German origins.

Ex GNR 4.6.0 steam locomotives on the Enterprise

A fleet of B113 types....

On the DSER and Waterford lines, ex-GSR 850 class 4.6.2T locomotives; these, along with the 2.4.4T types, and possibly a modern mixed traffic 2.6.0, being a standard "modern" GSR / CIE set of classes, the last of which would be destined to remain in traffic until about 1990....

Very interesting idea, I'd say there would be some very interesting designs, but why would this scenario happen?, and what of the turf burner? I'm almost tempted to have this scenario on my layout. I'd love to see a model of a GNR 4-6-0, a good donor would be a LNER B12.

[jhb171achill]

It could have happened a lot more easily than one might think. Let's take a few scenarios: first, either Ireland is a single entity with a pro-rail government, or Stormont and the Dublin government both are. Funding for GNR 4.6.0 and diesels is available. Within CIE, quite simply different management decisions are made, and let's say diesel fuel is a lot dearer, and coal a lot cheaper, than was the case in real life.

 

Now - who's for building five 800 kits!

[jhb171achill]

At one time a proposal was made for a railway to Belmullet to serve transatlantic traffic (which, like Clifden, never materialised). Depending on what set of plans would have been used, it would have either left the Achill branch between Mulrany and Tonragee, or run via Crossmolina from Ballina.

 

The "West Mayo Railway", with 141s?

[Broithe]

At one time a proposal was made for a railway to Belmullet to serve transatlantic traffic

 

The proposed terminus building.

 

[Broithe]

And more views.

 

 

[GSR 800]

My god that's a stunner! That'd be one hell of a layout:drool:

[Dhu Varren]

I believe that the GNR, when deciding on building the VS class, had considered something bigger like a 2-6-0 or possibly even a 4-6-0. However, the decision on a 4-4-0 was made due to the limited size of the works at Dundalk, which was not capable of handling anything bigger. In fact, when the 4-4-2T locomotives were in the works, I believe the buffers had to be removed in order to be able to shut the doors.

[Broithe]

My god that's a stunner! That'd be one hell of a layout

 

Somebody was talking about it once - I can't find it now, though - maybe it was on the old site...?

[GSR 800]

I believe that the GNR, when deciding on building the VS class, had considered something bigger like a 2-6-0 or possibly even a 4-6-0. However, the decision on a 4-4-0 was made due to the limited size of the works at Dundalk, which was not capable of handling anything bigger. In fact, when the 4-4-2T locomotives were in the works, I believe the buffers had to be removed in order to be able to shut the doors.

Also the crane at Dundalk could not cope with the weight of such a large loco, and as you said the narrow works would have a hard time fitting it. a 4-6-0 would be costly and wasn't really needed plus by the time they would have been built (1953-4?) it would be obsolete within a decade

[Broithe]

Somebody was talking about it once - I can't find it now, though - maybe it was on the old site...?

 

Found it - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/1416-New-Recruit!!?p=21672#post21672 .

[josefstadt]

My god that's a stunner! That'd be one hell of a layout:drool:

 

Building a model of the terminal building in an average railway room you wouldn't have much space for the trackwork!

[jhb171achill]

Where did you get that, Broithe? Did it give any further information?

[Broithe]

Where did you get that, Broithe? Did it give any further information?

 

Mostly here - http://ionaddeirbhile.ie/deirbhiles-blog/blacksod-bay-railway-terminus - and Google searches - it looks like WW1 put paid to it initially and, of course, it wasn't resurrected after the war, for many reasons.

[jhb171achill]

Fascinating!

 

The original terminus proposed about 1906 was a more conventional thing. Obviously, they went off and thought in grander terms!

[Broithe]

Fascinating!

 

The original terminus proposed about 1906 was a more conventional thing. Obviously, they went off and thought in grander terms!

 

At the time, it will have probably seemed quite plausible - then, after the delay of the war, Alcock & Brown, Lindberg, bigger and faster liners, and the general economic state will have caused people to think again.

 

And the fact that it would be located in a different state from a lot of its market......

 

Trans-Atlantic flights to Knock may be its modern legacy?

[GSR 800]

A scenario in which the black sod bay terminus had been built to its earlier designs, finished just before the war the bay receives good traffic in the 20s but the 30s and 40s bring little traffic and after years of neglect it's closed. Possibly reopened in the 80s but scaled down to a one or two platform station, it now receives a couple of 22000s a day but nothing more.