Goods raffic on CIE

[patrick]

I am looking for some information about fertilizer traffic on CIE in order to better represent it on my layout. Spring was always a busy season but was there traffic year round? Apart from the 4 wheel flats and bogie wagons what other wagons were used for this traffic, opens with tarps, covered vans? Also Oil traffic. Where did the traffic originate? I am aware of Shell in Alaxender Road but were there more depots there and what facilities were in Cork? Thanks. Patrick.

[jhb171achill]

A glimpse at any old CIE WTT will show up a massive amount of information - on what traffic there was, where it originated and went to, at what times, and with what motive power. If you're an IRRS member, have a look on any Tuesday night in the Society's place in Heuston Station.

 

Have a look at the section on this website "for sale". I offered a few surplus copies some time ago for sale and while I got rid of most, I still have even a few duplicates of those; I'll re-post what's still available tonight.

[Mayner]

Up to the block train era fertiliser and possibly agricultural lime would have been sent in individual wagon loads in sheeted opens. There was probably more competition in the market before NET Shelton Abbey came on line in the 60s. Beside Gouldings North Wall, NET and Albatros, there were also rail linked feriliser factories at Foynes and Wicklow quay operating in the 1960s.

 

Oil and petrol would have also been transported in individual wagon loads into the 70s with stations in medium sized towns having oil depot since the 1930s. The Irish Shell and ESSO tank wagons seem to have been mainly the older Pre-WW2 cradle mounted tanks though Caltex had a fleet of more modern anchor mounted tanks similar to the new Bachmann wagon http://www.bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/38-776.jpg&cat_no=38-776&info=0&width=650&height=461

 

 

I am not sure about Cork, Foynes and Dublin Ports seem to have been the main originating points before the opening of the Whitegate Refinery.

 

Foynes nearly closed in the early 60s with the loss of oil and fertiliser traffic before the revival with the starting of heavy fuel oil traffic to the Cement factories and Silvermines ore traffic.

 

One scenario could be a rail or pipeline from Whitegate to the Youghal/Waterford line and supply most of the countrys petrol and diesel by rail rather than road or coastal shipping.

 

The transportation of tar by rail tanker seems to have been pretty much a 50-60s thing before that tar and bitumen seems to have been mainly delivered in open wagons in 45gal drums, another interesting load for an open wagon

[Riversuir226]

There was oil traffic from Cork, Creedon mentioned it in his CBSC trilogy. It was brought to Albert qy by truck from the nearby esso depot and loaded in the yard, i'm pretty sure it was to do with the oil traffic to the Magnesite works in Ballincourty. As far as i remember it went via the city railway till it was transferred to another Cork depot (water street).

Seen as your layout is West Waterford based a lot of fertiliser traffic from Albatross New Ross to Cork & fertiliser from Net at Marino point could also be justified, the last traffic on the Cork city railway was from Albatross New Ross. Jbh posted up pics of both types of fertiliser wagons in Cork kent yard a while back. Suppose it would also be possible for earlier types of ammonia traffic to go via Waterford even though in reality it was the mid/late 1970's when it started.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Riversuir226

[Kirley]

I used some Bachmann Tankers with homemade decals.

 

 

[Mayner]

I suppose it depends on whether you prefer the post or pre 1970s block train era with individual wagon loads distributed by rail loose coupled goods trains often to most villages and towns or the block train era.

 

The Texaco siding at the tank farms in Tivoli seems to have been busy with oil traffic in the 70s with heavy fuel oil for Ballinacourty and Burmah oil traffic (petrol & diesel) for Limerick, and presumably Texaco traffic.

 

The siding was the terminal for the oil and magnesite trains and had a connection into the Quigley Magnesite Roofchrome factory, which eventually became the siding to the Tivoli container terminal.

[Old Blarney]

Patrick,

 

If you want to have additional Fuel Wagons on your railway, you could add MEX to your stock list. In Ireland MEX was a separate company to Shell-Mex. It is owned by the McMullan family and trades today as MAXOL. Mex wagons were stabled at CIE and UTA depots throughout the country.

 

Old Blarney.

[minister_for_hardship]

Re fert, you would expect farmers to be applying it in summer if they wanted a second cut, hence there would want to be a supply flowing to the co-ops and obviously there would be no activity during the winter.

[David Holman]

Was turf ever carried by broad gauge lines & if so, what type of wagons were used?

[jhb171achill]

Yes.

 

Some open wagons, but in the "Emergency" old six wheelers were used. Doors and windows were boarded up or screwed shut, and roofs were removed. This practice died out in the early 50s though a line of these, in badly faded GSR livery (plus bare boards!), was kicking about in Heuston for ages - maybe until the late 50s.

 

I never saw any evidence of Bullied opens being used for turf, but it's theoretically possible, however unlikely. Doubtful.

[minister_for_hardship]

I imagine turf traffic was at its height during the Emergency and perhaps a year or so afterwards until things got back to normal?

 

Maybe a brief burst in conjunction with Mr Bullied's turf-burning experiments and of course the Turfburner itself before tailing off again.

Edited October 6, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

Correct, Minister.

[Riversuir226]

Theres a book called "Trains, coal & Turf" by Peter Rigney, its well worth getting a copy of it as it goes thru the emergency fuel crisis in detail.

[Broithe]

Some open wagons, but in the "Emergency" old six wheelers were used. Doors and windows were boarded up or screwed shut, and roofs were removed. This practice died out in the early 50s though a line of these, in badly faded GSR livery (plus bare boards!), was kicking about in Heuston for ages - maybe until the late 50s.

This sort of thing..

 

 

From - https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/turf-train-in-ireland.517242/

[Riversuir226]

Thats the one Broithe, its even in the book along with a loading/unloading pic.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Riversuir226

[Broithe]

Thats the one Broithe, its even in the book slong with the loading/unloading pic.

 

If you ever had an exhibition layout featuring this, you would have to carry documentary evidence for the doubters...

[jhb171achill]

It would make a fascinating train on a layout!

 

I always thought round about 1947-51 would be a very interesting period to model accurately.

 

If only the time.....

[Broithe]

It would make a fascinating train on a layout!

 

I always thought round about 1947-51 would be a very interesting period to model accurately.

 

If only the time.....

For a few quid, you could make a reasonable "Artist's Impression" with some Hornby four-wheelers.

 

[jhb171achill]

Dead easy! Make 2 six wheelers out of three of these - botch them up with liberal weathering, rough planks over doors and windows and all-bran for turf (!)

 

Interesting that virtually all of those in the pic are ex-GSWR; Inchicore's traditional mistrust of anything Broadstone tended to extend only to locomotives. Despite GSWR six wheelers probably equal at least, if not superior in numbers, most six wheelers surviving into the sixties were ex-MGWR.

[Riversuir226]

Have a few of them in the spares box might be a nice and easy project.

[dave182]

Once again I marvel at the ingenuity of the railway men on this island over the years. Pity it didn't carry over in to the new millennium! Mk3s anyone? Could have been boarded up, roof peeled off and used for sugar beet!

[Broithe]

Dead easy! Make 2 six wheelers out of three of these - botch them up with liberal weathering, rough planks over doors and windows and all-bran for turf (!)

 

Interesting that virtually all of those in the pic are ex-GSWR; Inchicore's traditional mistrust of anything Broadstone tended to extend only to locomotives. Despite GSWR six wheelers probably equal at least, if not superior in numbers, most six wheelers surviving into the sixties were ex-MGWR.

 

Didn't Mike 84C do something along those lines a while back...?

[Broithe]

Didn't Mike 84C do something along those lines a while back...?

 

Here - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/4325-A-six-wheel-coach .

[jhb171achill]

He did indeed - and one of the most amazing conversions I've ever seen on this website. A rake of those behind a SSM J15 would look stunning.

[David Holman]

What a fabulous picture! Just checked the calendar to make sure it is not April 1st...

Am wondering if such a train would have run on the Sligo Leitrim? However, what prpted the question was see the turf railways on the Belmullet headland. JHB's book on Achill Island details the projected lines, so turf trains could have been a real possibility then.

Food for thought!

[minister_for_hardship]

Am wondering if such a train would have run on the Sligo Leitrim?

 

You might have to delve into the records of the SL&NC of that period, unless they happen to be mentioned in passing in the Turf & Trains book.

Don't think there would be too many toting cameras in that neck of the woods around the time of the Emergency/WW2 (delete as applicable, depending on what jurasdiction you're in)

[jhb171achill]

It's 99% certain that no turf traffic of this nature - if any at all - ran on the SLNCR main line.

 

However, it might have on the Arigna Road branch ;-) In fact.....

[Broithe]

It's 99% certain that no turf traffic of this nature - if any at all - ran on the SLNCR main line.

 

However, it might have on the Arigna Road branch ;-) In fact.....

 

1% is three and a half days a year - that's almost a hundred hours of running time. I can't see David managing to do all of that....

[Mike 84C]

I found several photos of Bord na Mona workers and trains carrying peat in my copy of"Father Brown"s trains and Railways" by E.E.O"Donnell. I liked the photos because many of them show people and train crew just going about their business. Some of which I find very moving every time I look at them.

Riversuir 226; they are an easy project and I can almost guarantee you will not look at a six-wheel coach in the same light again!

[jhb171achill]

Fr. Browne was indeed a master photographer. I wonder where his archives are - the may be many more gems there.

[Broithe]

Fr. Browne was indeed a master photographer. I wonder where his archives are - the may be many more gems there.

 

http://www.fatherbrowne.com/

[minister_for_hardship]

Fr. Browne was indeed a master photographer. I wonder where his archives are - the may be many more gems there.

 

This company (Davison & Associates) selling prints of his photos, seem to own their copyright.

 

http://www.fatherbrowne.com/

 

There's a pic of what may be Portarlington, of a GSR staff member trying to manhandle a calf onto a train which is priceless.

Edited October 7, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

Fantastic archive - contains a pic of 800 at speed in 1947, still in (tatty) GSR mid green, and a lovely shot of a train at (I think) Emalough crossing the Tralee & Dingle.

 

The are several showing these turf "wagons" plus one of a turf train consisting of a mixture of these old six-wheelers and also standard opens with slatted extensions to the sides, enabling the loading of turf to carriage roof level.

 

Incidentally, on a different point, what we all (including me) refer to as "six wheelers" were never, ever, referred to as such by railwaymen; they were always "thirty foot" carriages, as most were 30ft (about 27m) in length.

 

And, while on THAT subject, not only was Limerick to Sligo / Ballina never referred to as the "Western Rail Corridor" by railwaymen, it didn't even have that title among enthusiasts until long after it was closed!

 

Check out the turf train pics of Fr. Browne's. I must look for one of jhbSenior's - I'm sure I have one somewhere which he took himself.

Edited October 7, 2015 by jhb171achill

[David Holman]

Still amazed by that photo of the turf train. What a superb piece of adaptability & as already commented, a model of such would perforce need an explanatory label.

My aging, but much treasured copy of S Maxwell Hajducki's Railway Atlas of Ireland shows two Bord na Mona systems in north Mayo - Oweninny [1958] & Bangor Erris [1964]. Had the line to Belmullet been built, then perhaps this resource might have been tapped earlier & provided a reason to keep the line open into the 1950s. Sadly, can find no turf railways anywhere near Arigna & with a half decent coal supply the locals would perhaps not need the turf anyway?

In 7mm scale, Alphagraphix do a range of etched brass 6 wheel coaches, plus there are their cardboard kits [with chassis available too]. This has certainly become a possible project for me, as the stock wouldn't be too difficult to construct, though a proper weathering job might take some effort and as to a turf load, I wonder what could be used in this scale? Certain types of rabbit food perhaps? Am sure the fertile mind out there will soon come up with suggestions!

[Glenderg]

Someone mentioned Bran Flakes earlier, which made me chuckle at it's sheer ingenuity

[jhb171achill]

'Twas me, Glenderg, as there's a long disused packet of them in the cupboard behind me....

 

I'll sell each piece of all bran for €2 each, how about that....

 

Re modelling turf trucks, slatted wooden extensions to the sides are easy. For converted six wheelers, old wooden-body type bogies of just about any type can be cut up. Look at the photos and you'll see that in some cases, what are obviously sides falling apart have been put together again by nailing on several old doors, side by side. Hence the adjacent "3" figures, which were generally on doors only and never beside each other. In other cases, plain planks.

 

Naturally, my thoughts turn to livery!

 

Seriously weathered wood planks, unpainted, with patches of old maroon, long faded to a nondescript pinky reddish brown, with very faded and worn numerals. Ends just a mess of weathering. Chassis similar.....