Mixed gauge

[Maitland]

There weren't that many examples of mixed gauge in Ireland, but I found a couple of photos in a book picked up in a charity shop.

 

Turntable at Strabane:

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/asset.php?fid=19396&uid=1160&d=1449835271

 

This would make a good model, mixed gauge, grooved rails, gauntletted track in stone setts on Derry quay:

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/asset.php?fid=19395&uid=1160&d=1449835254

[jhb171achill]

Larne Harbour, Ballymena and Ballymoney stations had it too at one time.

 

I don't know offhand of any other examples....

[minister_for_hardship]

Ennis had mixed gauge as well.

[Noel]

Interesting but it looks a bit of a mess. Wonder how reliabley it worked with those interlaced crossings and points. Must have been a bit of a maintenance nightmare, but I guess the stock only moved at walking pace so not as many derailments as one might expect, or easy to fix if any occurred.

[jhb171achill]

I'm sure there would have been crossings at least of the narrow gauge track and broad gauge sidings within the Guinness complex in Dublin.

 

In India, there were places with metre gauge, 2ft 6 and 5ft 6 all in the one station....and in mainland Europe, especially Germany / Austria / Switzerland, the standard gauge often meets, and has mixed gauge tracks with, 700mm, 750mm, and metre gauges...

[tonybonneyba]

In Spain, they have a standard gauge of 5ft 6 & a few express service from France which has the world standard gauge of 4ft 8 & 1/2 (known as UIC gauge in Spain), to adopt this, CAF came up with a system for the bogies so that they can change between the two gauges (above) in under 60seconds at high speeds.

 

I'll leave a link to this when I get home.

 

Excause any spelling mistakes.

Edited December 11, 2015 by tonybonneyba
Buckion spelling

[minister_for_hardship]

I'm sure there would have been crossings at least of the narrow gauge track and broad gauge sidings within the Guinness complex in Dublin.

 

The broad gauge sidings out of Kingsbridge indeed appear to be crossed by the Guinness tramways in a number of places.

One BG siding seems to transform into narrow gauge, must be the place where the NG locos were lifted into BG convertor yokes to shunt BG stock. http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/22/Guinness_17.jpg

[Maitland]

Changing bogies is for wimps. There was through running between the Leeds and Bradford tramway systems at one time- despite Leeds being 1435mm gauge and Bradford 1220mm. The wheels slid on the axles.

 

Has anyone any idea where the Derry photo was taken? I'd like to know what it was that stuck out to make the track swerve like that. Or maybe they were under the affluence when they built it.

[WRENNEIRE]

Belturbet?

[jhb171achill]

Yes, Belturbet - also Dromod.

[tonybonneyba]

Changing bogies.... http://www.caf.es/en/innovacion-tecnologia/productos-tecnologicos/brava.php

 

A animation of how it works is also on the weblink

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21651[/ATTACH]

Hit refresh (F5) to re-watch the animation

[Mayner]

Larne Harbour would be an interesting challenge with broad and narrow gauge running lines into the passenger station and goods yard, including mixed gauge platform roads and sidings. The Londonderry Port & Harbour Commissioners (LPHC) lines were interesting in that the LPHC used broad gauge locos to work narrow gauge wagons to and from the Donegal & Swilly over the port railway system.

 

The mixed gauge siding and turntable at Strabane was originally provided for swapping wagon bodies between the broad and narrow gauge as part of an Edwardian Swap Body system that worked on a similar principal to modern roll off containers.

 

There was mixed gauge diamond crossings rather than true mixed gauge track at Ballymena, Ballymoney and Maguires Bridge (CVR) where broad gauge sidings crossed narrow gauge running lines and sidings.

 

Ballymena loco shed was used by both the broad and narrow gauge and would have been an interesting sight with BNCR Green or NCC Crimson lake narrow gauge compounds and Whippets.

 

 

 

There is no evidence that I am aware of mixed gauge trackage or crossovers on the C&L at Dromad or Belurbet.

 

One of the more interesting crossings was one where a BNM line crossed the Banagher branch line and BNM normally had the right of way!

[airfixfan]

Hi Maitland the Derry photograph was taken on the Cityside where the LPHC line in the photo ran alongside the Quays on one side and commercial buildings and warehouses etc on the other side of the line which fell out of use by 1962. The last 2 steam locos from the LPHC are both preserved NO 1 is at Cultra and No 3 is owned by the RPSI. Finally from which book did you get those photos from?

[Dhu Varren]

Has anyone any idea where the Derry photo was taken? I'd like to know what it was that stuck out to make the track swerve like that. Or maybe they were under the affluence when they built it.

 

Judging by how narrow it is at this point (no pun intended), I would suggest that the picture was taken in the vicinity of the Burns Laird Line shed which would be on the right behind the wagons. This would now be in the vicinity where the current bus station is. At the top centre of the picture is open quayside, probably near the Guildhall, where there were steam cranes for unloading the likes of coal. The presence of open wagons would also suggest that. I have no idea why the track on the left is like that, unless it curved off into a building on the left.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Dhu Varren

[Dhu Varren]

Judging by how narrow it is at this point (no pun intended), I would suggest that the picture was taken in the vicinity of the Burns Laird Line shed which would be on the right behind the wagons. This would now be in the vicinity where the current bus station is. At the top centre of the picture is open quayside, probably near the Guildhall, where there were steam cranes for unloading the likes of coal. The presence of open wagons would also suggest that. I have no idea why the track on the left is like that, unless it curved off into a building on the left.

 

Below is a picture of Derry docks with an arrow showing where I believe the original picture was taken.

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/XAW027080

 

Here are also two pictures of the LPHC locos, No1 in what has to be a posed shot with both broad gauge and narrow gauge wagons behind it, at the entrance to the loco shed. Also No3 taken towards the L&LSR Graving Dock Station further along the quay. Note the offset NG coupling on the buffer beams. Note the rope wound round the buffers of No3, used for dragging wagons into parallel tracks.

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Dhu Varren

[Mayner]

 

Larne Harbour 1936 photo taken 3 years after narrow gauge passenger services ended.

 

Irish Standard Gauge Railways (D&C)

Photo L&GRP

[jhb171achill]

The picture with LPHC No. 1 probably is posed all right - they could pull a rake of either gauge, but not a rake of MIXED gauge, because the wagons didn't have couplings compatible with each other!

 

If that picture isn't posed, then the loco has probably just backed the narrow gauge truck up close to (but not against) the broad gauge one behind, maybe to set back before changing tracks, or to avoid road traffic.

[Maitland]

Finally from which book did you get those photos from?

 

The Swift Book of Transport Oddities, 1962. It's also got a photo of an MGWR brake van with the top windows blanked off.

 

Thanks for the location everyone.

[Maitland]

I'm not sure the photo has to be posed. The loco has offset NG couplings, so no problem with the van. All it needs is something on the van to attach the SG wagon chain (or hook) to, and especially if it's an empty it doesn't have to be very substantial. Perhaps just a rope? After all they are doing that for parallel track shunting. And no need for anything much if they are pushing them somewhere.

[jhb171achill]

As far as I know, there was an unwritten rule not to mix stock. Maybe there was some sort of mishap many moons ago!

[Jawfin]

Wonderful photos of Derry, I've only seen a few pics of LPHC No. 1 (before the museum of course). Any pics of No. 2?

[Dhu Varren]

Wonderful photos of Derry, I've only seen a few pics of LPHC No. 1 (before the museum of course). Any pics of No. 2?

 

 

I have never come across a No2, but I am sure there must have been one. I only ever saw No1 in the flesh languishing in the loco shed, but never working. Latterly No3 was only used in the winter, when there was ice & snow, Fordson Major tractors were used most of the time. I was lucky enough to get a cab ride on No3 in the early 60s.

[Dhu Varren]

Whilst studying Mayner's and Maitland's excellent photos of mixed gauge track, it came to me that while TT/HOm track is perfect for 3ft gauge track, when used in conjunction with OO gauge track to form mixed 3ft and 5ft 3in gauge track, the proportions are totally wrong. N gauge track is almost perfect for 3ft/5ft 3in mixed gauge track when using OO gauge track. 12mm (3ft) track with 21mm (5ft 3in) track gives a ratio of 1 - 1.75. 9mm track with 16.5mm track gives a ratio of 1 - 1.8. 12mm track with 16.5mm track gives a ratio of 1 - 1.375.

[airfixfan]

The LPHC operated mixed gauge trains along the Cityside quays and see Saga by Rail Ireland. There were two no 2's but they were gone by the 1920s

[jhb171achill]

Ive never seen pictures of either of the No. 2's, Airfix - any ideas?

[Dhu Varren]

The LPHC operated mixed gauge trains along the Cityside quays and see Saga by Rail Ireland. There were two no 2's but they were gone by the 1920s

 

There is a reference to a No2 in 'Saga By Rail' on P56 & P57, but it is an error, as the loco referred to as No2 is, in fact, No3.

[jhb171achill]

Believe it or not, I have that book somewhere but have yet to read it..... wouldn't be like James Boyd to make an error like that - but none of us are perfect!

[Dhu Varren]

Believe it or not, I have that book somewhere but have yet to read it..... wouldn't be like James Boyd to make an error like that - but none of us are perfect!

 

I did a double take when I read it, but the text refers to No2, an 0-6-0 saddle tank of 1928, R.H.Smith. The spelling of Smith is as written. Unfortunately, not the only errors regarding the LPHC. It also states that the only connection the GNR had was via a connection into a platform in the GNR station, but there was, in fact, a direct connection, passing under the Craigavon bridge. It is possible, of course, that the direct line would not have been suitable for locomotives, as it would involve crossing the wagon turntable under the bridge.

[Andy Cundick]

If its of any help Agenoria Models do a kit which is suitable for No3 which is a standard Avonside design.The intriguing thing about the harbour line is in at least photos the train is of both 3' and 5'3" stock couplings and buffer all over the place! Andy.

[Garfield]

If its of any help Agenoria Models do a kit which is suitable for No3 which is a standard Avonside design.The intriguing thing about the harbour line is in at least photos the train is of both 3' and 5'3" stock couplings and buffer all over the place! Andy.

 

Here's a link to the kit: http://agenoria0gauge.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/product&path=65&product_id=130

 

Looks like an exact match, alright. It's just a pity it's only available in O gauge.

[jhb171achill]

Is there anything in 00 which would approximate to the RPSI's "Harvey"?

 

Or, the ex-Allman's Distillery loco which the GSR bought for shunting Cork docks? I always thought a layout based on an Albert Quay style setting, with a siding out onto a dock would be of great interest to operate or watch...

[Maitland]

http://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/product&path=65&product_id=127

Avonside 0-6-0ST in 4mm scale.

[airfixfan]

Looks very like RPSI No 3 and will update details on LPHC No 2 tomorrow.

[airfixfan]

There were 2 LPHC No 2s and the first one was ex LLSR and was quite short lived. From my research the second No 2 was identical to LPHC No 1 built by RS in 1896 and withdrawn in 1928 being replaced by the RPSI No 3 which was built in 1928. Therein lies the mystery!

[Dhu Varren]

A bit of research has revealed that the LPHC appears to have had a number of locomotives over the years.

The first No 1 was ex L&LSR No 3 by Robert Stevenson, purchased by LPHC in 1869. Scrapped in 1888.

The first No 2 was ex L&LSR No 2, previously No 4, by Robert Stevenson, purchased by LPHC in 1882. Scrapped in 1891.

The above locos were 5’ 3” gauge, and were the same. A picture of one of them, while with the L&LSR, is opposite P17 of E M Patterson’s ‘The Lough Swilly Railway’.

The second No 1 was by Robert Stevenson, purchased in 1891, preserved in UFTM.

The second No 2 was by Robert Stevenson, purchased in 1896, scrapped in 1928.

These two locos were also the same.

No 3 was by Avonside Engine Company, purchased in 1928, preserved by RPSI.