OO Works J15

[leslie10646]

Or maybe sooner?

 

See -

 

http://www.ooworks.co.uk/products

 

Just the thing to pull my corrugated opens, H van etc.

 

My next offerings planned to suit the newly available motive power!

 

I'll have flyers at the SDMRC Exhibition in October, but you steam men will all have your order in by then?

 

Leslie

[leslie10646]

[jhb171achill]

Wow!!!!!

 

Count me in......

 

I note he's offering them in black as well as grey - either this is pre-1915 (thus with GSWR red lining) or not? If not, it's worth noting that none were ever black in GSR or CIE days, according to the likes of Bob Clements, Drew Donaldson and Jack O'Neill; this would also concur with the perambulations of jhb171senior.......

[jhb171achill]

 

My next offerings planned to suit the newly available motive power!

 

 

 

Leslie

 

Wow!!!!!! Cattle trucks at last????

 

Six wheel carriages?

 

Sez he hopefully........cue drooling icon.......

[Noel]

Wow!!!!!

 

Count me in......

 

I note he's offering them in black as well as grey - either this is pre-1915 (thus with GSWR red lining) or not? If not, it's worth noting that none were ever black in GSR or CIE days, according to the likes of Bob Clements, Drew Donaldson and Jack O'Neill; this would also concur with the perambulations of jhb171senior.......

 

So what era/company did the grey livery run in? I understand from ooworks that neither black nor grey livery versions are lined.

[jhb171achill]

Hi Noel

I've just written out a comprehensive summary, and due to connectivity problems of this this computer, I lost what was a lengthy post before I got a chance to post it! Frustrating.... I will write out and post shortly. Suffice to say, for J15s, everthing grey after about 1915. Will resume radio silence shortly.........!

[jhb171achill]

LIVERY OF GSWR 101 (J15) CLASS LOCOMOTIVES

 

Initial building or earliest examples – approx. 1880/5

 

Lined olive green, as (accurately) depicted on No. 90 at Downpatrick, or the model of the 2.4.0 in the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London. Lining: light green, red and black. Numberplate background – black, polished numerals.

 

1880/5 until approx. 1895

 

Same olive green with lining simplified to cream and black. Numberplate background remained black, polished numerals.

 

Approx. 1895 – 1915

 

Glossy black with red lining (some evidence suggests that at least initially, the lining was red and white in places). The numberplate appears to have been red-background, polished numerals.

 

1915 - end GSWR era (1925), and on right through GSR days (1925-45) and into CIE days until approx. 1949

 

Plain battleship grey, including wheels, connecting rods, all motion, inside frames, smokebox and chimney. In most cases, cab interior too, though it would appear that some locos had a mid-brown cab interior on the loco, but not the tender. Numberplates were sometimes painted over completely in grey, sometimes with polished numerals*, but mostly the same grey background with numerals picked out in pale yellow or dark cream. (* loco numberplates were almost always cast iron or steel, so polished numerals may have been a short lived idea! Few GSR locos ever had brass numberplates. A few of some classes did have, but I am as good as certain that none were J15s!). Tenders were entirely grey in every area and detail, with no relieving features or markings at all. Any small tender end numberplates were just painted over. Wheels, brakes, the lot. One very excellent publication tells us that numberplates were black-backed with red numerals. This is incorrect, as is an assertion that smokeboxes were black.

 

1949 – end of steam operation (1963)

 

CIE came into existence in 1945, but was nationalised in 1950. About 1949, “flying snails”, already being applied to publicity, carriages and buses, began to appear on locomotives. As we know, some passenger locos were to be painted green – these got them straight away – and soon, they began to appear on the tenders of the standard grey steam engines. At the same time, CIE started removing cabside numberplates and substituting these with larger painted numbers in the same pale yellow, sometimes a slightly darker shade. Thus, for some years, a mix is appropriate in the model world of plated / painted cabside numbers, paired with tenders with or without snails. It is important to remember here that in no cases were the snails yellow on any steam loco. They used the same standard transfer used on buses and carriages; thus all snails on all locos without exception were pale green with gold lining. The modern myth of the yellow snail is as accurate as a pink roundel on a 141, or a bright blue and tartan roof on a Mk 3 coach! It appears to have arisen due to the unfortunate turning out of both 184 and 461 in black with yellow snails in the 1990s.

 

So, throughout the entire 1915-63 period, as far as J15s are concerned, if one wants accuracy it’s plain grey only. With a numberplate and no snail, the loco will fit any year within this time. With a snail and / or a painted number, post 1950 or so only. It’s worth pointing out that not every tender repainted in the 50s received a snail. Some remained plain grey.

 

Of course, there’s an exception to ever rule. One solitary CIE loco received a repaint as late as 1962 – probably the last CIE steam loco ever to be completely repainted. It carried a unique variation (well, it WAS done in Cork, boy!). And – it was a J15!

 

In spring 1962, J15 No. 193 received a repaint in the standard grey livery, but with a BLACK smokebox and chimney (and NO snail, incidentally). It was withdrawn from use months later.

 

A final word about the black and green liveries. The lined green, as seen on 461 (though the shade is wrong) was a very attractive livery which was applied after about 1946 or so to some main line passenger locos and some suburban tanks, but nothing else with the exception of one old GSWR 4.4.0 (No. 60, perhaps, I forget). One 400 class loco appears to have had it unlined. Numberplates were red-backed on green locos with polished letters on 801/2, dark blue backed on 800, and painted in eau-de-nil (not yellow) on others.

 

From about 1957, some locos which were repainted received all over black. From Clement’s recollections, there were no more than a couple of dozen thus treated, therefore grey remained the standard until the end. For the record, no J15s ever were painted black, even this late. No. 90, one Bandon Tank, at least two Woolwichs and possibly a 400 were thus treated. I have a list somewhere but have never been able to find it.

 

I hope that this lengthy tome assists; in summary, therefore:

 

All over grey with plates (picked out yellow, grey-backed) and plain tenders: appropriate 1915-63

 

Any tender with a snail, or painted number: 1949-63.

 

All other colours or decorations: the modeller’s prerogative, of course, but incorrect historically, like our yellow, light blue and brown ICR…….!

[leslie10646]

Thanks, John, for the livery treatise.

 

You're absolutely right about the grey, but in a very short time, they LOOKED BLACK.

 

As Lord White of this County famously said "It's my layout and I'll run what I like on it" -

 

so I'll go for black.

 

Now, I believe you missed one repaint - No.184 was repainted in 1958 and displayed at Inchicore for the Institution of Locomotive Engineers' visit that Spring. Dare I say it, nicely illustrated in "Steaming in Three Centuries", Page 98. A super photo by the late John Dewing - and pulling a transfer freight over Islandbridge Jct with, of all things, a GNR(I) 20 ton brake van at the front of the train!

[jhb171achill]

That's very true, Leslie - I had omitted that because it was a "half-enthusiast" thing. As an approximation of GSWR livery, it was utterly wrong in every way, but looked well!

 

Grey livery on locos did tend to darken largely due to oily rags and coal smoke. It would have looked almost (but not quite) dirty black when, well, dirty and weathered, but on a newly painted loco was said to have a "bluish sheen".

[Noel]

LIVERY OF GSWR 101 (J15) CLASS LOCOMOTIVES

 

Initial building or earliest examples – approx. 1880/5

 

Lined olive green, as (accurately) depicted on No. 90 at Downpatrick, or the model of the 2.4.0 in the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London. Lining: light green, red and black. Numberplate background – black, polished numerals.

 

1880/5 until approx. 1895

 

Same olive green with lining simplified to cream and black. Numberplate background remained black, polished numerals.

 

Approx. 1895 – 1915

 

Glossy black with red lining (some evidence suggests that at least initially, the lining was red and white in places). The numberplate appears to have been red-background, polished numerals.

 

1915 - end GSWR era (1925), and on right through GSR days (1925-45) and into CIE days until approx. 1949

 

Plain battleship grey, including wheels, connecting rods, all motion, inside frames, smokebox and chimney. In most cases, cab interior too, though it would appear that some locos had a mid-brown cab interior on the loco, but not the tender. Numberplates were sometimes painted over completely in grey, sometimes with polished numerals*, but mostly the same grey background with numerals picked out in pale yellow or dark cream. (* loco numberplates were almost always cast iron or steel, so polished numerals may have been a short lived idea! Few GSR locos ever had brass numberplates. A few of some classes did have, but I am as good as certain that none were J15s!). Tenders were entirely grey in every area and detail, with no relieving features or markings at all. Any small tender end numberplates were just painted over. Wheels, brakes, the lot. One very excellent publication tells us that numberplates were black-backed with red numerals. This is incorrect, as is an assertion that smokeboxes were black.

 

1949 – end of steam operation (1963)

 

CIE came into existence in 1945, but was nationalised in 1950. About 1949, “flying snails”, already being applied to publicity, carriages and buses, began to appear on locomotives. As we know, some passenger locos were to be painted green – these got them straight away – and soon, they began to appear on the tenders of the standard grey steam engines. At the same time, CIE started removing cabside numberplates and substituting these with larger painted numbers in the same pale yellow, sometimes a slightly darker shade. Thus, for some years, a mix is appropriate in the model world of plated / painted cabside numbers, paired with tenders with or without snails. It is important to remember here that in no cases were the snails yellow on any steam loco. They used the same standard transfer used on buses and carriages; thus all snails on all locos without exception were pale green with gold lining. The modern myth of the yellow snail is as accurate as a pink roundel on a 141, or a bright blue and tartan roof on a Mk 3 coach! It appears to have arisen due to the unfortunate turning out of both 184 and 461 in black with yellow snails in the 1990s.

 

So, throughout the entire 1915-63 period, as far as J15s are concerned, if one wants accuracy it’s plain grey only. With a numberplate and no snail, the loco will fit any year within this time. With a snail and / or a painted number, post 1950 or so only. It’s worth pointing out that not every tender repainted in the 50s received a snail. Some remained plain grey.

 

Of course, there’s an exception to ever rule. One solitary CIE loco received a repaint as late as 1962 – probably the last CIE steam loco ever to be completely repainted. It carried a unique variation (well, it WAS done in Cork, boy!). And – it was a J15!

 

In spring 1962, J15 No. 193 received a repaint in the standard grey livery, but with a BLACK smokebox and chimney (and NO snail, incidentally). It was withdrawn from use months later.

 

A final word about the black and green liveries. The lined green, as seen on 461 (though the shade is wrong) was a very attractive livery which was applied after about 1946 or so to some main line passenger locos and some suburban tanks, but nothing else with the exception of one old GSWR 4.4.0 (No. 60, perhaps, I forget). One 400 class loco appears to have had it unlined. Numberplates were red-backed on green locos with polished letters on 801/2, dark blue backed on 800, and painted in eau-de-nil (not yellow) on others.

 

From about 1957, some locos which were repainted received all over black. From Clement’s recollections, there were no more than a couple of dozen thus treated, therefore grey remained the standard until the end. For the record, no J15s ever were painted black, even this late. No. 90, one Bandon Tank, at least two Woolwichs and possibly a 400 were thus treated. I have a list somewhere but have never been able to find it.

 

I hope that this lengthy tome assists; in summary, therefore:

 

All over grey with plates (picked out yellow, grey-backed) and plain tenders: appropriate 1915-63

 

Any tender with a snail, or painted number: 1949-63.

 

All other colours or decorations: the modeller’s prerogative, of course, but incorrect historically, like our yellow, light blue and brown ICR…….!

 

Thanks for that excellent info JB. Really appreciated. Order placed.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Noel

[DiveController]

According to Rebecca, they are doing the re built version, which has the single smoke box door, ...

[Horsetan]

Wonder if this will have much impact on sales of the SSM kit?

[leslie10646]

According to Rebecca, they are doing the re built version, which has the single smoke box door, ...

Kevin

Not surprising really, as the sloped front, double-doored version disappeared when the original locos got new boilers - the last of those appears to have been around 1921.

 

The model has the so called 4ft 4in Boiler, first introduced in 1902 and carried by No.184 into preservation.

 

I feel sure that WHEN this run proves a massive success, the Z Boiler-ed, Belpaire version will appear.

 

Ivan, I've no idea how many J15 kits Des sells in a year, but the kit will continue to be attractive to those who like building, rather than running locos? Of course, the kit is a better bet for guys like you modelling in 21mm.

 

Leslie

Edited September 6, 2017 by leslie10646

[David Holman]

Don't know if this has featured elsewhere, but current Railway Modeller has a rather nice picture of the forthcoming J15 on p896 Rather nice price too, at £295, but this looks a high quality model. Shame it will be 16.5mm gauge, or I could be (very) tempted...

By the by, two new locos from Hattons also look interesting - an SECR P class and. Barclay 0-4-0T. Info about the new Peco points too.

[Noel]

Don't know if this has featured elsewhere, but current Railway Modeller has a rather nice picture of the forthcoming J15 on p896 Rather nice price too, at £295, but this looks a high quality model. Shame it will be 16.5mm gauge, or I could be (very) tempted...

 

Hi David.

 

Good idea though to post with its own thread title for future readers. Leslie posted a link last month http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/6433-Order-now-for-Christmas-2018!-At-last-a-Ready-to-Run-J15. I was tempted and looking forward to getting delivery next year in grey livery. Will just need DCC conversion. It's a pity they didn't also release it in lined preservation green livery like 184.

 

Noel

 

 

 

Photo from

 

Photo RPSI https://steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/10/no-184

[Garfield]

Threads merged.

[jhb171achill]

Wowwww!

 

00 works, I'll have one. I did email you but no answer.

 

Constructive comment; it beggars me belief that one option is black - none were ever black in that form! GNR blue would actually be nice.... ;-)

 

Grey. Put me down for one.

[DiveController]

Don't know if this has featured elsewhere, but current Railway Modeller has a rather nice picture of the forthcoming J15 on p896 Rather nice price too, at £295, but this looks a high quality model. Shame it will be 16.5mm gauge, or I could be (very) tempted...

By the by, two new locos from Hattons also look interesting - an SECR P class and. Barclay 0-4-0T. Info about the new Peco points too.

The price is much stiffer at GBP295 plus P&P with a weakening dollar but ordered one nonetheless

 

Wowwww!

 

00 works, I'll have one. I did email you but no answer.

 

Constructive comment; it beggars me belief that one option is black - none were ever black in that form! GNR blue would actually be nice.... ;-)

 

Grey. Put me down for one.

Doubt you can order on here unless Zivan happens by. Maybe a PM also?

 

... the video showing the i3 running didn't impress me, the chassis did not appear to be running free and started and stopped rather abruptly in an unprototypical manner. Could have been the hand on the controller or the apparent lack of double flywheel on the chassis. IMHO models need to be able to appear to operate prototypical accelaration and braking speeds smoothly and capable of ultra low speed running as well as look prototypical. One without the other seems expensive. In this day and age not having online payments on the web site seems an omission. Good luck to them.

 

...when I saw the photo of the chassis on Kirley's post and the lack of things like a fly wheel I wondered if this was going to be another case of a fine scale model that looks great but not capable of running well and certainly not scale smoothness. However I decided not to post a query about the chassis as I didn't want to appear negative about a new product. Unfortunately your feedback confirms my suspicions. IMHO higher priced fine scale models need to run as well as they look and especially smooth slow running and scale acceleration and deceleration without any porpoising or jerking. No point in a model looking authentic if it runs like a childs toy. However I'm glad you have managed to improve the running with the weight. 4-4-0 chassis really need to be all wheel pickup rather than one side on chassis and one on tender. Does the front bogie have pick ups or just the two driving wheels?

 

Noel, I'm surprised they accepted your order!

 

I was tempted and looking forward to getting delivery next year in grey livery. Will just need DCC conversion. It's a pity they didn't also release it in lined preservation green livery like 184. Noel

 

I guess you're a OOworks convert now

Edited September 23, 2017 by DiveController

[Noel]

I guess you're a OOworks convert now

 

Hi Keven

yes because it's GSWR and the difference is a hand built metal bodied 0-6-0 chassis should run much better than a 4-4-0 in 00 gauge due to weight balance, electrical pickup, and driving wheels, which seemed problematic for the 4-4-0 out of the box until some folk modified them retrospectively. That 4-4-0 was a beautiful looking model and I vowed then if they ever produced an 0-6-0 I'd get one. DCC frequency pulsing should compensate for the lack of a flywheel.

 

The GSWR 101 was such a numerous example of the Irish steam era. Imagine the pic of 184 above in its original all over grimey grey livery hauling green or crimson coaches, with DCC steam sound. You know me Kevin, if a loco doesn't drive well, accelerate and decelerate prototypically, and run smoothly at ultra low speed I couldn't care less how well or detailed it looks. Prototypical function over form every time for me. Personally I 'play' and drive model trains around a layout, not look at them in a display case, and I accept that's just my personal preference, not right nor wrong, just me.

Good night.

 

Noel

[leslie10646]

Just a short update.

I had a chat with Roderick this evening and he tells me that the loco is on track to be ready by the Raheny exhibition in the Autumn. 

I'll admit that I was surprised at how few had been ordered - more than the UG, but less than the U Class, at present.

If you want one, now's the time to act, as Roderick will make a small number over his order book, but that's usually that.

Order yours now, if you want a member of Ireland's most numerous class for your railway. Later may be too late.

Now, to make Beaumont's head swell a bit (see above), Roderick admitted that he realised that GREY really was the only colour these engines were in latterly, bar the last year or two of CIE steam when a FEW were painted black (I think for the 1964 All Ireland Tour). I realised that a while ago and changed my order to grey.

Time to act?

[jhb171achill]

One (I think 193) became grey with, uniquely for ANY CIE loco, a black firebox and chimney but grey elsewhere.

I'm aware that Roderick has done painstaking research on these locos, not just on livery but on a bewildering array of the many detail differences involved in Ireland's largest class by far. I would have no hesitation in highly recommending it, and Roderick deserves our support.

I've my order in and may get two. I already have a very nice SSM one - an excellent model which in my case is weathered within an inch of its life. It will share beet specials at Dugort Harbour with its OO Works companion(s).

I suspect that no more than two or three J15s were black, and these only for a very short time between maybe 1958 and 62.

[Noel]

Really looking forward to this GS&WR 101 class loco later this year. I ordered the grey livery last year.

http://www.ooworks.co.uk

[Georgeconna]

13 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Just a short update.

I had a chat with Roderick this evening and he tells me that the loco is on track to be ready by the Raheny exhibition in the Autumn. 

I'll admit that I was surprised at how few had been ordered - more than the UG, but less than the U Class, at present.

If you want one, now's the time to act, as Roderick will make a small number over his order book, but that's usually that.

Order yours now, if you want a member of Ireland's most numerous class for your railway. Later may be too late.

Now, to make Beaumont's head swell a bit (see above), Roderick admitted that he realised that GREY really was the only colour these engines were in latterly, bar the last year or two of CIE steam when a FEW were painted black (I think for the 1964 All Ireland Tour). I realised that a while ago and changed my order to grey.

Time to act?

I'm not surprised about the order quantity, €350 is a large spend on a non DCC ready, Non Sound Equipped Loco. There so much Irish RTR this year coming out people are spending their cash on the Wagons etc. I ordered one loco myself as it does look pretty nice.

 

 

[Noel]

Yes at £295 they are rather expensive but I felt worth it if the quality was as good as their previous RTR projects, and it is a unique and classic Irish steam era loco. OO Works have a good track record. Commissioning a top job on a brass kit would have cost more, and there is no way I could build a brass kit to a standard that would look as good as this and equally important run as freely and smoothly as this hopefully will. I doubt we will ever see RTR versions done in finely detailed injection molded plastic due to economics. 

[leslie10646]

I can understand the comments about price, when you could once get a 141 for the ludicrously cheap price of £80. However, they were made in the thousands.

Noel makes a very good point in that you wouldn't get a brass kit built for anything like that price - maybe closer to double that, kit costs included.

Anyway, I simply wanted to remind you all that if you want one, get it now. Quite a few guys failed to grab a U Class or a UG two years ago and have been regretting it since.

[Zivan Bruce]

Hi chaps,

The model we will be producing will be the later round top version with the single smoke box door. During this period when freshly out-shopped from the works, they were always painted in grey. A few locomotives were individually treated, for example Cork shed out-shopped one with Black edging plus the occasional locomotive with Black Smokebox and chimney. 

The Black version is due to Customer demand for those who would more likely be weathering them as seen in a lot of colour photographs, These would have been painted grey to start with.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Zivan Bruce

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Zivan Bruce said:

.....A few locomotives were individually treated, for example Cork shed out-shopped one with Black edging plus the occasional locomotive with Black Smokebox and chimney......

 

 

 

 

A single one (193 from memory?) was repainted all-grey about 1961/2, only months before withdrawal. Uniquely, it had a black smokebox and chimney, but was otherwise "sheep-dipped" grey.

None were lined in any way, ever, but many had black edging around the crimson buffer beam. No other black at any stage.

[GSR 800]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:35 AM, Noel said:

Really looking forward to this GS&WR 101 class loco later this year. I ordered the grey livery last year.

http://www.ooworks.co.uk

I've just noticed the smokebox is missing it's handle.

It has the wheel, but no handle

[Noel]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

I've just noticed the smokebox is missing it's handle.

 Ah there is probably an iPhone app that automatically opens the smokebox door  

[leslie10646]

Ah there is probably an iPhone app that automatically opens the smokebox door

Oh, nice one, Noel!

I wonder what Alexander McDonnell would have made of the world as we know it today?

More entertaining would be to see a locomotive designed by the Apple folk?

Back to the missing lever - I am sure the picture is just a 3D image of intention and does not show EVERY detail - I'm sure Zivan has warned his Dad, just in case it got missed!

[jhb171achill]

A good accessory for a model J15 is a crew: driver and fireman in overalls, plus a tall figure with a black beret and long brown overcoat - Bob Clements hitching a lift as he often did!

Once I get the present layout up and running, various well known characters will appear about the place in the form of little figures..... 

[Weshty]

I'd have a word with Aidan Campbell on that..  A good man for the figures.

[popeye]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A good accessory for a model J15 is a crew: driver and fireman in overalls, plus a tall figure with a black beret and long brown overcoat - Bob Clements hitching a lift as he often did!

Once I get the present layout up and running, various well known characters will appear about the place in the form of little figures..... 

I have been looking around for figures. Some are better than others with regards to the fine detail and painting.

Here is a pic of the Bachmann set. 36-047.

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, popeye said:

I have been looking around for figures. Some are better than others with regards to the fine detail and painting.

Here is a pic of the Bachmann set. 36-047.

 

It's soooo tempting to say that they're the "wrong livery", as their overalls should be filthy!!!!

[Broithe]

The two on the right would be clean - they are actually off-duty and are boogieing in a night club.