burnthebox Posted March 16, 2018 Author Posted March 16, 2018 4 hours ago, jhb171achill said: Yes, it's the planning process and long term vision that is the issue. Irish politicians (north and south) are a shower of self serving gombeen men, without the education, let alone the will, to plan anything sensibly; let alone again to do so with any sort of long term strategy in mind. The Port Tunnel and Ardnacrusha Dam are about the lot! We can all, politicians included, witter on interminably about preference for this, that or the other; rearranging tram lines, bus lanes, private car routes, electric car charging points, blah blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. However, a brain-dead dung beetle would be able to grasp a solitary important truth: the amount of land available for anything from bus lanes to tooth fairies is finite, and already heavily saturated. The only way to actually increase capacity to get people from A to B in a large and crowded city is to do what other cities do. Take Vienna. It is marginally larger than Dublin, but has a very much larger amount of traffic everywhere as it is a an important international crossroads. Traffic moves freely. Virtually every street in the city has trams, with a network of bewildering array, but more importantly, there are eight separate underground lines operating almost 24 hours a day with in some cases four or five minute frequencies. There's the clue: underground. Dublin's railways were constructed by commercial companies so the imperatives then, in planning them, were utterly different from now. Thus, where a railway route suits modern traffic, it's an accidental benefit rather than anything relating to deliberate good planning. Docklands to anywhere is crass. Connolly and Heuston operate to near capacity. Harcourt Street, even if still open, would be no good as a final terminus. Buses are saturated, so are the city centre trams. Closing the entire city centre to road traffic is not practical. Some years ago, Dublin Bus reorganised itself so that the quays were not clogged with bus termini - that was a good move. What's past is past, and good riddance; what's future MUST be underground railways. Yes, it'll cost a fortune, especially when billions are squandered on endless consultants and appeals. CPOs must be handed out all over the place where necessary once and for all, and I would say the northside needs probably three routes; one towards the Coolock / Baldoyle / Airport / Swords area - and that, with an extremely regular frequency. Another via a different route to the Broombridge LUAS somewhere in the general area of Finglas / Clonee, and perhaps curving back to Blanchardstown, interconnecting with one of a number of west-side routes to serve Ashtown / Blanch / Castleknock / Clonsilla / Clondalkin - maybe even to Lucan. Other underground routes need to serve Donnybrook / Rathmines / Ranelagh / Rathgar / Terenure / Rathfarnham / Kiltipper / Knocklyon / Tallaght areas. The LUAS and DART should suffice for south east Dublin. By my estimation, you're looking at maybe an absolute minimum of five routes there, possibly six or seven. There would need to be a central underground station, maybe under St Stephen's Green, but with connections to Heuston, Connolly and Pearse stations, Busaras and the airport. Another thing that could be done is to get rid of Dublin port, sell off all that land, and shift the entire port operations to somewhere like Mornington outside Drogheda. No, I know, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of this happening. But otherwise, we will all end up in forty years Thank you, jhb171achill, & with that, I rest my case... 1 Quote
Garfield Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, burnthebox said: Thank you, jhb171achill, & with that, I rest my case... You're still cherry-picking, I see. Quote
Noel Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 They are working on solutions (see IT piece below). Hopefully one day it will all gel together. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/longer-luas-trams-withdrawn-due-to-fault-in-system-1.3429510 Far in the future I would love to be able get to Heuston from Bray by rail in 30 minutes, change platform and be in Cork by rail two hours later. That would be 10 minutes quicker than I can do it by road at the moment point2point. Quote
Mayner Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Noel said: They are working on solutions (see IT piece below). Hopefully one day it will all gel together. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/longer-luas-trams-withdrawn-due-to-fault-in-system-1.3429510 Far in the future I would love to be able get to Heuston from Bray by rail in 30 minutes, change platform and be in Cork by rail two hours later. That would be 10 minutes quicker than I can do it by road at the moment point2point. Teleportation might be the solution. If its any consolation Auckland is about 30 years behind Dublin in terms of public transport infrastructure despite having a City Transport authority with power to manage road, rail and ferry services. The city is going through the same soul searching as Dublin between a heavy and light rail connection from the CBD to the Airport, while roading projects are funded directly by central government. Recently completed heavy rail electrification and roading projects simply add to congestion as demand quickly exceeds capacity with increasing population in a rising economy. Ho for the good old days of a stagnant economy when there was little traffic on the roads and public transport ran half empty Quote
murrayec Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, Mayner said: Teleportation might be the solution. Nail on the head, John, with Noel and his 30mins Eoin 1 Quote
leslie10646 Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) No, I know, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of this happening. But otherwise, we will all end up in forty years time going round and round and round and round and round in the same discussion.... Ah, Jon, ye never know - when all the overseas companies leave London before and after Brexit, and take themselves to Dublin - Ireland could eventually find the end of the rainbow (how much Gold is in a Crock, anyway?). Noel did provoke a interesting thought in my mind when he talked of sticking LUAS in a tunnel and I thought - would a "Cut and Cover" tunnel in the City centre have caused any more disruption than building LUAS totally above ground? Like it or not underground railways cost an unholy amount of money these days. When London built hers Britain ruled half the World; Moscow's Metro (utterly wonderful) was built by a dictator who didn't give a hoot about cost, his people or anything - I could go on ...... Edited March 16, 2018 by leslie10646 Quote
burnthebox Posted March 16, 2018 Author Posted March 16, 2018 20 hours ago, Garfield said: You're still cherry-picking, I see. Oh, you're so clever....... Quote
Noel Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 2 hours ago, murrayec said: Nail on the head, John, with Noel and his 30mins Quad track from Bray to Howth Junction and t'would be no problem except for finance. Then commuters from Louth, Wicklow, Wexford could get quickly into Dublin city centre instead of tail gating Darts congestion. A train journey that is slower than a car seems rather like a broken pencil - pointless. 1 Quote
brianmcs Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 13 hours ago, leslie10646 said: No, I know, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of this happening. But otherwise, we will all end up in forty years time going round and round and round and round and round in the same discussion.... Ah, Jon, ye never know - when all the overseas companies leave London before and after Brexit, and take themselves to Dublin - Ireland could eventually find the end of the rainbow (how much Gold is in a Crock, anyway?). Noel did provoke a interesting thought in my mind when he talked of sticking LUAS in a tunnel and I thought - would a "Cut and Cover" tunnel in the City centre have caused any more disruption than building LUAS totally above ground? Like it or not underground railways cost an unholy amount of money these days. When London built hers Britain ruled half the World; Moscow's Metro (utterly wonderful) was built by a dictator who didn't give a hoot about cost, his people or anything - I could go on ...... the port tunnel was built to allow HGVs easy and quick access to the port . same could be done for commuters et al. Money is not the problem. 1 Quote
Garfield Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 9:39 PM, burnthebox said: Oh, you're so clever....... Excuse me? It's not about being 'clever', it's about you only picking the points you agree with and ignoring the other points being made in the above posts. Pretty sure you're doing nothing more than trolling at this stage. Quote
burnthebox Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Garfield said: Excuse me? It's not about being 'clever', it's about you only picking the points you agree with and ignoring the other points being made in the above posts. Pretty sure you're doing nothing more than trolling at this stage. Well now, I said as I beleved of the way things go in this country, I said the morans " planners, " who are responsible for the issues relating to the LUAS & many other modes if transport go unchallenged as it's the way things are. Yes we need a proper working intergrated public transport system, with LUAS or its equalivent & no more cockups like what we've had over the past decade or so. I had not mentioned the fact that thanks to the " engineeres " we have 90 seater double deck buses puffing their way around the Capitol & the outer country narrow roads of the areas of it endeavouring to fulfill a public service yet they on so many occasions have no more than 7 / 8 passengers. I started this tread by highlighting yet another LUAS broke down been towed by another & escorted by a police car, not exactely indicative of a working transport system ! Well I guess I could give you some years, that said, I have no idea whatsoever as to what you mean by, trolling !! I say what I feel & believe in. BTB 1 Quote
Garfield Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/18/2018 at 9:04 PM, burnthebox said: Well now, I said as I beleved of the way things go in this country, I said the morans " planners, " who are responsible for the issues relating to the LUAS & many other modes if transport go unchallenged as it's the way things are. Yes we need a proper working intergrated public transport system, with LUAS or its equalivent & no more cockups like what we've had over the past decade or so. What have the planners got to do with sanctioning funds to actually build the transport links? That's the actual problem! Quote I had not mentioned the fact that thanks to the " engineeres " we have 90 seater double deck buses puffing their way around the Capitol & the outer country narrow roads of the areas of it endeavouring to fulfill a public service yet they on so many occasions have no more than 7 / 8 passengers. You answered your own question there. Incidentally, which routes only have 7/8 passengers, and is ridership that low on a consistent basis? Have you stats to back this up? I've hopped on the 16 on occasions where there's no one else on it, yet a lot of times I get on and it's standing room only. Are you saying routes such as that should be operated by minibuses!? Quote I started this tread by highlighting yet another LUAS broke down been towed by another & escorted by a police car, not exactely indicative of a working transport system ! The new Luas trams are experiencing some teething problems, which is not uncommon (even some new cars get recalled!). It'll be fixed. It has absolutely nothing to do with the overall suitability of the system! Quote Well I guess I could give you some years, that said, I have no idea whatsoever as to what you mean by, trolling !! I say what I feel & believe in. Inconsistency in your argument, ignoring questions, cherry-picking points you agree with and ignoring points that don't suit you... that's what makes it look like you're trolling. 1 Quote
burnthebox Posted March 20, 2018 Author Posted March 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Garfield said: What have the planners got to do with sanctioning funds to actually build the transport links? That's the actual problem! Nothing, but with without a plan you have nothing...even a bad plan deserves discussion & acceptance or refusal... You answered your own question there. Incidentally, which routes only have 7/8 passengers, and is ridership that low on a consistent basis? Have you stats to back this up? I've hopped on the 16 on occasions where there's no one else on it, yet a lot of times I get on and it's standing room only. Are you saying routes such as that should be operated by minibuses!? No I don't have stats, just eyes in my head... The new Luas trams are experiencing some teething problems, which is not uncommon (even some new cars get recalled!). It'll be fixed. It has absolutely nothing to do with the overall suitability of the system! Inconsistency in your argument, ignoring questions, cherry-picking points you agree with and ignoring points that don't suit you... that's what makes it look like you're trolling. Well sir, you're making me out to be a politician.. I take that as a compliment..! with regards to this trolling, tweets, Twitter, or any of that other Immature stuff, I leave that to the teenagers of this world...so no I don't do trolling. Quote
Garfield Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, burnthebox said: Well sir, you're making me out to be a politician.. I take that as a compliment..! with regards to this trolling, tweets, Twitter, or any of that other Immature stuff, I leave that to the teenagers of this world...so no I don't do trolling. The jury's out. Quote What have the planners got to do with sanctioning funds to actually build the transport links? That's the actual problem! Nothing, but with without a plan you have nothing...even a bad plan deserves discussion & acceptance or refusal... You do realise these projects are subject to planning permission and objections and observations can be lodged at the relevant stage, during which the plans can also be viewed? Quote No I don't have stats, just eyes in my head... So no answer then? Quote
RedRich Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 40 minutes ago, burnthebox said: Well sir, you're making me out to be a politician.. I take that as a compliment..! Screaming Lord Sutch comes to mind . Rich, Quote
Noel Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 An urgent remedy seems needed while they debug the hardware and find a mathematical traffic model that will work optimally with bus and other road traffic. I'm sure in time it will improve somewhat. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/call-for-alternative-transport-to-luas-during-rush-hour-1.3432987 Most of us are possibly closer to the same hymn sheet than we might think, and I'm sure can respect one another's differing opinions on the solutions needed. As Monty Pythons black knight might say, "tis but a scratch!" Quote
Broithe Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 43 minutes ago, RedRich said: Screaming Lord Sutch comes to mind . Rich, A great chap, I have a £1,000,000 note that he signed for me. Quote
dave182 Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 I see another one failed yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGbpHVMDhcc&sns=em Quote
burnthebox Posted March 22, 2018 Author Posted March 22, 2018 7 hours ago, dave182 said: I see another one failed yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGbpHVMDhcc&sns=em Enough said.... Quote
hurricanemk1c Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 Failures are all about visibility. The Enterprise appears to have appalling reliability, yet 98-99% of services are operated as planned with the DD stock. A MKIV failure on the Cork line is incredibly easy to hide, a DD failure not. I'm not denying that there has been an increase in issues on the Green Line as a result of Cross City opening, but I would suggest that, in terms of actual failure rate, that it is a lot lower than preceived 1 Quote
Mayner Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 There are reliability issues with every new and old piece of equipment, Altsom will sort out the teething problems with the longer trams otherwise they will face heavy penalties and loss of reputation I think road traffic having priority over the trams at the crossings and the level of segregation of street running is one of the biggest draw backs of the LUAS, no such issues in Vienna where some streets with shared two way street running are as narrow as the LUAS cross city line 1 Quote
Barl Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) As one of the silly, overpaid consultant "engineers" who worked on the construction phase of the LUAS Cross City, I always find it funny reading comments from armchair planners and engineers criticising the designs. Do you honestly think that every route option for the LUAS Cross City wasn't examined in detail. The project began planning not long after the red line was finished, and the final route was decided upon following public consultation and agreement between all stakeholders; including DCC, NTA, RPA (now TII) Grangegorman Development Authority etc. These projects are designed with long term thinking in mind (the new metro and other proposed lines for example) not the short term that many seem to criticise. The chosen route serves the largest agglomeration and provides the most conveniently located stops. It is no coincidence that many large cities around the world - such as Edinburgh and Sydney - are returning to light rail as an option for public transport. As Mayner mentioned above, the grass is not always greener. Having lived in Auckland for a year it makes Dublins public transport look like a well oiled machine! As for the underground options, Dublin is sitting on a bed of limestone covered by boulder clay and other glacial till deposits. These make it a nightmare to tunnel through as there are many fissures and water pockets which are difficult to pick up during site investigation works. Other tunnelling projects in Dublin, such as the Port Tunnel and the Greater Dublin Drainage Scheme were far from smooth sailing and encountered many difficulties, but none that couldn't be resolved by the "clueless" designers involved. For the LUAS to work as intended, it requires the cooperation of other road users which, unfortunately is not always the case - how many incidents involving trams are the fault of the trams/drivers? Look at how well the trams work in cities like Amsterdam as they have priority and car usage is reduced. Hopefully the proposed metro will resolve some of the issues with Dublins public transport but it is an old city with old, and hidden problems so it may take some time. Edited March 23, 2018 by Barl 11 3 Quote
Garfield Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Barl said: As one of the silly, overpaid consultant "engineers" who worked on the construction phase of the LUAS Cross City, I always find it funny reading comments from armchair planners and engineers criticising the designs. Do you honestly think that every route option for the LUAS Cross City wasn't examined in detail. The project began planning not long after the red line was finished, and the final route was decided upon following public consultation and agreement between all stakeholders; including DCC, NTA, RPA (now TII) Grangegorman Development Authority etc. These projects are designed with long term thinking in mind (the new metro and other proposed lines for example) not the short term that many seem to criticise. The chosen route serves the largest agglomeration and provides the most conveniently located stops. It is no coincidence that many large cities around the world - such as Edinburgh and Sydney - are returning to light rail as an option for public transport. As Mayner mentioned above, the grass is not always greener. Having lived in Auckland for a year it makes Dublins public transport look like a well oiled machine! As for the underground options, Dublin is sitting on a bed of limestone covered by boulder clay and other glacial till deposits. These make it a nightmare to tunnel through as there are many fissures and water pockets which are difficult to pick up during site investigation works. Other tunnelling projects in Dublin, such as the Port Tunnel and the Greater Dublin Drainage Scheme were far from smooth sailing and encountered many difficulties, but none that couldn't be resolved by the "clueless" designers involved. For the LUAS to work as intended, it requires the cooperation of other road users which, unfortunately is not always the case - how many incidents involving trams are the fault of the trams/drivers? Look at how well the trams work in cities like Amsterdam as they have priority and car usage is reduced. Hopefully the proposed metro will resolve some of the issues with Dublins public transport but it is an old city with old, and hidden problems so it may take some time. Excellent post, Barl. Looking forward to reading the response... Quote
brianmcs Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Barl said: As one of the silly, overpaid consultant "engineers" who worked on the construction phase of the LUAS Cross City, I always find it funny reading comments from armchair planners and engineers criticising the designs. Do you honestly think that every route option for the LUAS Cross City wasn't examined in detail. The project began planning not long after the red line was finished, and the final route was decided upon following public consultation and agreement between all stakeholders; including DCC, NTA, RPA (now TII) Grangegorman Development Authority etc. These projects are designed with long term thinking in mind (the new metro and other proposed lines for example) not the short term that many seem to criticise. The chosen route serves the largest agglomeration and provides the most conveniently located stops. It is no coincidence that many large cities around the world - such as Edinburgh and Sydney - are returning to light rail as an option for public transport. As Mayner mentioned above, the grass is not always greener. Having lived in Auckland for a year it makes Dublins public transport look like a well oiled machine! As for the underground options, Dublin is sitting on a bed of limestone covered by boulder clay and other glacial till deposits. These make it a nightmare to tunnel through as there are many fissures and water pockets which are difficult to pick up during site investigation works. Other tunnelling projects in Dublin, such as the Port Tunnel and the Greater Dublin Drainage Scheme were far from smooth sailing and encountered many difficulties, but none that couldn't be resolved by the "clueless" designers involved. For the LUAS to work as intended, it requires the cooperation of other road users which, unfortunately is not always the case - how many incidents involving trams are the fault of the trams/drivers? Look at how well the trams work in cities like Amsterdam as they have priority and car usage is reduced. Hopefully the proposed metro will resolve some of the issues with Dublins public transport but it is an old city with old, and hidden problems so it may take some time. A very good post . the current problems in the city centre show the great weakness of tramways - they have to share the road space with other users. A proper underground system will always be difficult and expensive to build but worth having . 1 Quote
burnthebox Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 Here's hoping this get's to completion.!! https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0322/949357-nta-unveils-3bn-underground-metro-plan/?utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=News_Daily_Headlines_Email Quote
Broithe Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 9 hours ago, Barl said: As one of the silly, overpaid consultant "engineers" who worked on the construction phase of the LUAS Cross City, I always find it funny reading comments from armchair planners and engineers criticising the designs. Do you honestly think that every route option for the LUAS Cross City wasn't examined in detail. The project began planning not long after the red line was finished, and the final route was decided upon following public consultation and agreement between all stakeholders; including DCC, NTA, RPA (now TII) Grangegorman Development Authority etc. These projects are designed with long term thinking in mind (the new metro and other proposed lines for example) not the short term that many seem to criticise. The chosen route serves the largest agglomeration and provides the most conveniently located stops. It is no coincidence that many large cities around the world - such as Edinburgh and Sydney - are returning to light rail as an option for public transport. As Mayner mentioned above, the grass is not always greener. Having lived in Auckland for a year it makes Dublins public transport look like a well oiled machine! As for the underground options, Dublin is sitting on a bed of limestone covered by boulder clay and other glacial till deposits. These make it a nightmare to tunnel through as there are many fissures and water pockets which are difficult to pick up during site investigation works. Other tunnelling projects in Dublin, such as the Port Tunnel and the Greater Dublin Drainage Scheme were far from smooth sailing and encountered many difficulties, but none that couldn't be resolved by the "clueless" designers involved. For the LUAS to work as intended, it requires the cooperation of other road users which, unfortunately is not always the case - how many incidents involving trams are the fault of the trams/drivers? Look at how well the trams work in cities like Amsterdam as they have priority and car usage is reduced. Hopefully the proposed metro will resolve some of the issues with Dublins public transport but it is an old city with old, and hidden problems so it may take some time. It would be interesting to have a ball-park figure for the relative costs per kilometre for tram-lines and underground railways. Tram stops are fairly cheap to provide - an underground station is a whole other scenario. Whether people like it or not, it's all about cost/benefit in the end. Even in the UK with its horrendous urban traffic conditions, there are only underground systems in three places outside London. Newcastle, Glasgow and Liverpool. I note that Enniscorthy has an underground railway, but I've never been able to find the entrance to the station escalator... Quote
Garfield Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, burnthebox said: Here's hoping this get's to completion.!! https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0322/949357-nta-unveils-3bn-underground-metro-plan/?utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=News_Daily_Headlines_Email Deflecting again... How about directly addressing the guy from the team of engineers and planners you called ‘morons’ who actually gave a very good explanation of the process involved in the Luas Cross City consultation process? Quote
leslie10646 Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 Thanks, Barl, for the explanation of the LUAS consultation and why tunnelling would be difficult in Dublin. Can I ask a question, regarding cut and cover tunnelling in the centre? Would it have been possible (if expensive) to have made some use of a sub surface line in the City Centre (Yes - I know that the river would get in the way!) - what I'm thinking of is that LUAS pops undergorund to avoid the busy centre city road junctions and pops above ground again further up O'Connell Street? The Strasbourg trams do something like this (albeit the tunnel is deep enough to withstand a thermo-nuclear blast). Anthony McDonald gave a great presentation to the IRRS London on LUAS recently and included a speeded up film of the laying of some of those city centre road junctions - brilliant engineering. Quote
Mayner Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) Due to challenging ground conditions cut and cover is being used on a section of the City Centre link in Auckland, the disruption to city center business and transport is pretty horrendous. The primary reason for building the cross city line is to relieve congestion at the Auckland down town passenger terminal opened about 15 years ago. At the time there was little Government faith in rail and only enough land was released for a double track line into the terminal. The basic funding model for commuter rail in New Zealand like the UK is that central government funds rail infrastructure, and City and Regional Councils are responsible for funding the trains and subsidising loss making services on the domestic and commercial rates Comparison of tunneling costs https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2016/10/05/the-costs-of-tunnelling Edited March 23, 2018 by Mayner 2 Quote
leslie10646 Posted March 24, 2018 Posted March 24, 2018 John, Thanks for that feedback. I have no doubt the disruption would be horrendous, but it seemed that the recent Luas building work to get across the Liffey was just as bad? The beauty of such a method, if practical, is that once it's down (and covered over) the trams run down the centre of the street, but without disrupting the traffic. The public just drop down an escalator and jump on a speedy public transport system. As I said, the one in Strasbourg is terrific and now that I've sussed it, when I lead tours through there, I save my elderly clients a long walk from our hotel near the station to the Cathedral etc by hopping on a tram for a few stops. 2 Quote
Mayner Posted March 24, 2018 Posted March 24, 2018 8 hours ago, leslie10646 said: John, Thanks for that feedback. I have no doubt the disruption would be horrendous, but it seemed that the recent Luas building work to get across the Liffey was just as bad? The beauty of such a method, if practical, is that once it's down (and covered over) the trams run down the centre of the street, but without disrupting the traffic. The public just drop down an escalator and jump on a speedy public transport system. As I said, the one in Strasbourg is terrific and now that I've sussed it, when I lead tours through there, I save my elderly clients a long walk from our hotel near the station to the Cathedral etc by hopping on a tram for a few stops. Leslie Cut and cover construction would probably have taken two to three times longer than building a surface section of tramway/light rail. The big additions in terms of time and cost over surface over a surface line include civil works and earthmoving in connection with forming the tunnel and mechanical and electrical services within the tunnel. Multiple piling rigs working within the city centre forming the retaining walls and the road traffic from a massive muck shift would result in a lot more disruption than that occurred with the LUAS. At least with a bored tunnel like the Port Tunnel most of the work goes fairly un-noticed with traffic congestion limited to a couple of sites, a bored tunnel from the airport or M50 to the city centre would create the least disruption material can be delivered/spoil may be removed by motorway, geologically Dublin is trick not impossible. Discouraging cars from entering the city center seems to have been part of a strategy for at least 40 years, starting with pedestrianising Grafton & Henry/Mary St in the 70s, restricting O'Connell St to public transport, closing streets for the LUAS and the port tunnel, certainly the days of the demolishing large areas of the city center and inner city to make ways for motorways are long. The LUAS was originally conceived as an affordable substitute for CIEs Dublin Metro, with Lines from the city centre to Tallagh, Stillorgan/Sandyford Ind Estate and Ballymun to be funded mainly by EU money as a bribe for voting for Maastricht Treaty. The LUAS was originally a CIE baby, but the LUAS was spun off the the Rail Procurement Agency (CIE light rail project team) politically CIE/IE was viewed as union ridden and in-capable of delivering the project. Being a Fianna Gael/Labour plan, the incoming Fianna Fail lead coalition got cold feet over the matter due to a lot of business opposition, the EU money went to doubling the Maynooth Line and new suburban rolling stock. The LUAS then morped into the Sandyford-Stephens Green & Tallagh Abbey St line with the construction of the city centre and Ballymun Lines postponed to minimise traffic disruption or avoid running out money as the Ballymun Re-generation and Dublin Port Tunnels were going on at the same time. The Ballymun line morphed into a light rail Airport Metro which incorporated the Green Line with an underground section through the City Centre from Harcourt St, the Metro was put on ice following the GFC. Quote
Noel Posted March 24, 2018 Posted March 24, 2018 One of the most disappointing aspects of all the plans is that there will still be no means to quickly get to Heuston main line rail connections from north or south Dart lines - unlike other European cities rail connections. Unfortunately the motorway to Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway will remain faster and more convenient than by rail because of the lack of a good rail connection to Heuston. A possible lower cost solution to this could have been a large through station where the ex-GSWR mainline intersects the M50 with large park and ride facilities. 1 Quote
Glenderg Posted March 24, 2018 Posted March 24, 2018 8 hours ago, Noel said: One of the most disappointing aspects of all the plans is that there will still be no means to quickly get to Heuston main line rail connections from north or south Dart lines The luas serves both Heuston and Connolly, 15 minutes between them. Are you getting mixed up with the metro North idea? Quote
Barl Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) On 3/23/2018 at 9:01 PM, leslie10646 said: Thanks, Barl, for the explanation of the LUAS consultation and why tunnelling would be difficult in Dublin. Can I ask a question, regarding cut and cover tunnelling in the centre? Would it have been possible (if expensive) to have made some use of a sub surface line in the City Centre (Yes - I know that the river would get in the way!) - what I'm thinking of is that LUAS pops undergorund to avoid the busy centre city road junctions and pops above ground again further up O'Connell Street? The Strasbourg trams do something like this (albeit the tunnel is deep enough to withstand a thermo-nuclear blast). Anthony McDonald gave a great presentation to the IRRS London on LUAS recently and included a speeded up film of the laying of some of those city centre road junctions - brilliant engineering. I think Mayner has covered most of the issues with cut-and-cover tunnel construction very well. As he mentions the dusruption to the city centre areas would be huge, not to mention the effects of the noise from the constant thumping of the sheet piling rigs. The sheer number of services under Dublins streets was also a factor. The sub-base for the LUAS was close to 1m deep in most places but it still required a separate contract to divert all services under the track. We still encountered huge issues with existing services including sewers, many of which are old Victorian brick arch culverts requiring rehabilitation works. Even finding space for something as small as a 150mm diameter gully connection was difficult. As you can imagine, cut and cover would require a greater number of sercive diversions and disruption to services when it occurred. I think the DART Underground project (whenever it happens) has some sections of cut-and-cover proposed in certain areas like St. James Gate but disruption could be minimised in these areas. The City Rail link example Mayner gives did cause huge disruption, as well as being an eyesore in one of the busiest streets in the city. It also made finding The Fiddler Irish pub very difficult 😂 Edited March 25, 2018 by Barl 2 Quote
Weshty Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) On 14/03/2018 at 12:53 PM, skinner75 said: Didn't people bash the Dart before it was launched? I remember that melt Myers in an Irishman's Diary pontificating about how the Dart was costing £2.20 for every £1 collected in fares, and so should be shut down. It gave me a great understanding of his complete lack of understanding. The head of the project was on Matt Cooper last week and covered off the project very well and didn't lose her cool as Matt did his manufactured "common man on the street" questions. It was a very poor interview from his persective, negative, snarky and patronising. A far cry from the gushing bonhomie he normally indulges in with his fav. contributors. Edited March 25, 2018 by Weshty Quote
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