CIE Laminate Coaches - Worsley Works - ECMbuild in 4mm

[murrayec]

9 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Great work, the four battery boxes make all the difference, the bogies are the puppies private’s . I’m currently finishing off an IFM bogie TPO but I’m am holding back in the hope that you might release a 8’0” commonwealth bogie . 

Hi fl

I'll include a set of sides for you the next time I go casting them.....

Eoin

[DiveController]

18 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

I’m currently finishing off an IFM bogie TPO but I’m am holding back in the hope that you might release a 8’0” commonwealth bogie . 

I'm not sure if it would be a viable small project or not (like a Rawie, I suppose) but it would probably be helpful if one could get complete common Irish bogies such as the commonwealth bogie to retrofit to existing/future rtr and scratch/kit built instead of trying to build these individually. BTW at the risk of echoing others comments, it's an exquisite build and I'v been watching this thread with interest. Some great information regarding battery boxes and vacuum cylinders and great prototypical and model photos

[murrayec]

Thanks all for the great comments

Next up, the body....

Body mounting brackets being soldered onto the ends with a spare bits of fret from the kit, underneath as spacers

Sides being soldered onto the ends-  because I soldered the roof access steps on the ends first! I had to do this mad jigging arrangement! Each side has an end soldered on like a 'L' and then the two are soldered together.

All together with the internal divisions soldered in- toilets and break/store compartments. These bits don't come with the kit, their home spun.

Test fit of body and roof.

Some small adjustments required- I forgot to put fret spacers under the dividers when soldering them in! their low and hold the body up off the chassis, got to do that again.

Looking good though

Eoin

 

[Noel]

Fabulous work. You have become a brass master Eoin and seem expertly tooled up for working with it. Those coaches are superb, trust they are routed for a good home.

[flange lubricator]

That is one of the finest laminate coaches I've have seen and  the bogies bring it to the next level.

 

[flange lubricator]

Just one minor detail the Inchicore coach builders who put these coaches together were real craftsmen the rib's on the body work always matched the rib's on the roof this is very well illustrated in josefstadt's pictures 

[Noel]

31 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

That is one of the finest laminate coaches I've have seen and  the bogies bring it to the next level.

 

Agree. Cant wait to see it painted, glazed, seating with seated pax inside. Eoin what are you planning to use for door handles and door hinges?

Edited January 19, 2019 by Noel

[murrayec]

17 minutes ago, Noel said:

Eoin what are you planning to use for door handles and door hinges?

Hi Noel

Not sure if doing hinges!

Handles will be bent up NS wire guards and filed down dress pin heads for handles- these will go on last after painting is complete.

Eoin

[KMCE]

2 hours ago, murrayec said:

because I soldered the roof access steps on the ends first!

Eoin,

Did the same thing myself on the 6 wheeler!

Ken

[Mayner]

32 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Just one minor detail the Inchicore coach builders who put these coaches together were real craftsmen the rib's on the body work always matched the rib's on the roof this is very well illustrated in josefstadt's pictures 

The Laminates & the Tin Vans were of modular pre-fabricated construction that could be assembled quicker and required less skill compared to the timber framed coaches built by CIE between 1951 &55. The introduction of the Park Royals & Laminates allowed CIE to speed up its carriage building construction during the mid-late 50s introducing a greater number of coaches more quickly that could be achieved with traditional carriage building techniques and the available pool of labour. Ironically Inchacore returned to traditional timber frame carriage construction in the early 1960s for the final batch of coaches designed and built by CIE shortly before the introduction of the Craven Coaches. 

Apparently it was intended to re-body the Laminates after 15-20 years (use due to the limited design life of the composite aluminium insulation body panels) but the concept of re-bodying the coaches became obsolete with the introduction of the stress skinned MK2 coaches from the 1960s onwards.

Interestingly some Laminate coaches were re-skinned with new sides and windows in the early 80s presumably as a stop gap measure to keep sufficient coaches in services until enough MK3 were in services to allow Cravens & Park Royals to be cascaded to suburban and secondary services. I was quite surprised to see several Laminate coaches stripped down to underframes, ends and roof during a visit to Inchacore in the early-mid 80s, the coaches looked distinctly odd with the sides and interior removed and roof supported by the ends and underframe. 

[josefstadt]

Absolutely outstanding workmanship Eoin! You have taken an already excellent model and elevated it to a level beyond belief.

[David Holman]

Beautiful.

Reminder to self to visit this section more often!

[murrayec]

Hi Guys,

Here is another question on the laminate coach;-

Does the public emergency break system come out both ends of the coach? looking at the laminate photos some ends do not have the system! which leads me to believe it's at one end only!! What do we reckon?

Eoin

[flange lubricator]

One end only. 

[murrayec]

14 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

One end only. 

Excellent fl, thanks

[Horsetan]

On 19 January 2019 at 9:43 AM, murrayec said:

Hi fl

I'll include a set of sides for you the next time I go casting them.....

Eoin

Put me down for a couple of sets of Commonwealth bogies, please.

[murrayec]

19 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Put me down for a couple of sets of Commonwealth bogies, please.

Will do Horsetan.

Eoin

[murrayec]

So then, I sorted out the partitions height by de-soldering, shimming up and soldering in again, now the body sits on the chassis beautifully. Next up was to prepare the roof by soldering in the torpedo vents, the roof was thinned with 180deg solder and the vents soldered in with 70deg lead solder.

A bit of a clean up on the underside of the vents if one should decide to install lights, I also left a cut-out in the top of the partitions and roof bracing for this.

The roof is now ready to be nailed on, but a bit of preliminary set-up for the internals is required- easier to test fit and adjust the bits while the roof is off. Internal sides and passenger floor were cut from .5mm styrene sheet.

Excellent fit, the inside window frames will work great with this idea and will be painted silver before the glazing and sides go in.

Seats and table parts have been made and moulds are cooking to plastic cast up the full set. After this is done and test fitted- its on with the roof and some small bits, then I can start painting.

Has anyone got an idea on the toilet water tank fillers? I was thinking of a circular latch cap type of thing and wonder if there was two of them?

Eoin

 

[Noel]

Excellent precision work as ever Eoin. Just curious, are you planning to sandwich clear glazing sheets between the white styrene and the coach sides or inset in the plastic card openings, or some other form of flush glazing?

[murrayec]

Thanks Noel,

The glazing will be sandwiched.

Eoin

[murrayec]

The moulds for the seats n tables are complete and today I spent the morning plastic casting. I made two sets of moulds to speed things up and I will make a big mould from today's casting of 20 seats for the next coach.

First castings.

The lot cast.

A little bit of a clean up on the edges is required, but wont be stuck down until the floor is painted, also as said above I'll use these 20 seats to make a bigger mould first.

Eoin

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by murrayec

[JasonB]

Eoin, your work never ceases to amaze me. Top class as always. 

[Bentleypat]

Wonderful craftsmanship and amazing attention to detail Eoin. You’re the real deal. This is world class work! Very well done!

[Noel]

Class job and cleverly resourceful.

[murrayec]

Does anybody have a notion on the seat upholstery for the laminates, I read on the forum some time back and I think it was JHB's comment that the seats were 'grey with a blue fleck' or maybe 'charcoal grey with a blue fleck'?

Here is a test of both;-

Any input is welcome......

Eoin

[flange lubricator]

Pictures of the interior here 

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/35/1463-open-third

[murrayec]

43 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Pictures of the interior here 

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/35/1463-open-third

I went with the later seats as per Mr Brendan McCausland's photo of the interior of a Break Standard on flicker;-

I felt the material may have been by Downpatrick rather than CIE, but the seats were easier and quicker to make than the old type with arms!

I'll do the blue as per the RPSI photo

Eoin

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by murrayec

[Glover]

Eoin,

There was a reference in an early 1960s issue of Irish Railfans News (available on the RPSI website at one time) which said that standard CIE seat colours were maroon in second/standard class and green in first class.

I suspect that was the 'base' colour with floral type patterns giving a variety of shades. I'm trying to think back to CIE buses of that era; my memory would suggest that the coverings used on the RPSI coaches are rather too modern for the mid/late 1950s.

A rummage around old furniture shops/auction rooms might provide some clues.

Cheers,

Glover

[murrayec]

Hi Glover

Yes I think someone posted those photos on the forum somewhere- black n white photos if I remember correctly? The floral pattern is a bit hard to do, so I'm going to stick with the blue material in the RPSI website photo linked in FL's post above.

Eoin

[David Holman]

 Lovely stuff. There is so much we can learn here. Note to self: next time I build a coach, check out Eoin's clever jigs and other building aids!

[jhb171achill]

The green and red coloured upholstery (1st & 2nd class) mentioned in the 1960s had disappeared by, at a wild guess, about 1970/2.

The dark charcoal grey with blue fleck became almost universal, though the Loughrea coach had light brown plastic “leather”, and I seem to recall some old laminates with light greyish blue, like Dublin buses.

It’s important to note that NONE of the RPSI or DCDR carriages have upholstery which is like the original. A few are roughly similar, but most including those shown above are completely different, with even base colours as different as painting a model ICR in NCC maroon with yellow wheels and a tartan roof! 

Edited February 10, 2019 by jhb171achill

[murrayec]

Well, this is what I did?

Eoin

[Mayner]

Eoin

Lining the interior of the sides with plasticard appears to be a new development in terms of 4mm coach building.

Did you cut out the window opening by hand or use some form of profile cutter?

[murrayec]

12 hours ago, Mayner said:

Eoin

Lining the interior of the sides with plasticard appears to be a new development in terms of 4mm coach building.

Did you cut out the window opening by hand or use some form of profile cutter?

Hi John

I use a Cameo Silhouette cutter for cutting the plastic card, well it deep scores the card about 3/4 the way through, the blade cannot get through .5mm card, the side of the blade rubs on the side of the cut and wont go any further no matter how many times one re-cuts, so then out with the scalpel  to finish off by hand, but very easily done with deep guides to follow, with diagonal cuts in the window opes the waste card snaps out along the score. The Cameo Silhouette will cut through  .3mm downwards.

I now have a drag knife attachment for the cnc machine for cutting right through plastic card up to 1mm thick, I also cut the card with a 2 flute milling cutter but am experiencing heat problems with the card melting and sticking to the tool! I've just invested in an air cooling system to keep heat away from the tool- yet to run tests! But if all works OK I will be able to cut out large chunks of styrene...... 

The interior lining idea is so that I will get aluminium colour interior frames to the windows when painted up and complete

Eoin

[murrayec]

With the insides sorted its time for the roof to go on the coach body.

Stage one- tack solder the roof on in spots on the outside to get everything square.

Stage 2 - Solder the roof on from the inside, I worked in small runs of solder, alternating to each end and slowly working to the middle. This minimises heat distortion- taking short breaks gives the assembly a chance to cool down also.

The tack solder on the outside melted and some of it ran into the detail lines which will be removed with a scalpel blade.

Stage 3 - Clean off the tack solder- first with a solder sucker when the tacks are molten with the iron, then the Dremel with a sanding drum, then fine emery paper, and finally the trusty scratch brush.

Roof on and the body is not distorted.

A few bits to go on the ends, sort out the corridor connectors and we're painting

Eoin