Larne Harbour Station

[LARNE CABIN]

Hi there, all you expert modellers. I am new to this forum as a contributor, but have been reading lots of your topics for many, many months. I have always wanted to create a model layout, but have never had the time or space until now! When I say space, I have an alcove in a spare room and have a baseboard area of 6ft x 2ft. I have from time to time considered various locations, but recently had caught on to the fact that I can create a fairly realistic model of Larne Harbour Station (1970's) in the limited space available. From various photos I am well on my way to creating a realistic track plan, but I want to model as accurately as possible, within limits, so intend to scratch build the cabin, upper quadrant signals etc. I have a few photos of the cabin, but am unable to determine the size of the base. Studying any material I have available I feel that 60mm (15 feet) is too small and 80mm (20ft) too big length wise. This is my first question to you, probably first of many. Would anyone be able to throw any light on the dimensions for Larne Harbour Signal Cabin, or even better where could I get a drawing of same. Thanking you in advance, any advice welcome.

Edited May 28, 2019 by LARNE CABIN
Title Layout

[jhb171achill]

If it’s of any help, by arrangement you can get up close and personal with the standard NCC style cabin from Kingsbog Junction, which is now at Downpatrick.

While I can’t say its exact, it’s much the same as the ones at Larne - the NCC had a standard design.

Edited July 3, 2021 by jhb171achill

[LARNE CABIN]

Thank you for that reply, and interest. I have photos of Kingsbog and indeed been to Downpatrick a few times. My problem is that Kingsbog is bigger than either Larne Town or Larne Harbour. I am happy with the detail of a standard NCC Cabin and indeed the window setup etc. at Larne Harbour, so just need a base length as a starting point. Perhaps the only answer is a scale drawing. I may be being too pernicity, but just want to be as accurate as possible.

[jhb171achill]

The IRRS might be able to help in Dublin if you contact them.They have all sorts of drawings.

[Galteemore]

Carrickfergus cabin is still extant and easily accessible as is Portrush. It was not uncommon for window frames in cabins to be a standard size which may give you a scalar to work  off 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Galteemore

[Andy Cundick]

You could always count the bricks and then work out the height and length from that done it a few times and it works for me.The trick to get the number of bricks and then go and measure a wall to the corresponding number of courses.Its also useful to remember that a standard is 6'6" high.Andy.

[LARNE CABIN]

Thank you, Andy. That is an ingenious idea that I would never have thought of! I can blow up the photo, count the bricks and get a very accurate measurement. That solves my problem. Thanks.

[Johannes Houtsma]

dear people. I have a question. I have a model railway but because I live in the Netherlands it is all German. I would love to have the English/Irish railway models, locomotives and so on. I do love Northern Ireland and that's way I would love to have some information about the old larne harbour station. how the railway was situated at the harbour. i already have contact with; http://irishrailarchives.ie/ and they have drawings of the old station. but do I want to have some authentity I need to know how everything was there. Hope you can give me some pictures or other things. sincerely Johannes Houtsma. around 1930 will be my model railway.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Johannes Houtsma

[LARNE CABIN]

Hi Johannes, as I started this thread on Larne Harbour Station, I thought I should reply to you. I am working on a model of Larne Harbour Station in the 1970's. My progress is very slow, but I have collected lots of photos and am currently working on the signal cabin. My eventual aim is to produce a compact, but accurate model. If you goggle 'Larne Harbour Mixed Guage' you will find a brilliant photo of the station area in 1936, and there a lot of good photos of around the station area, but mostly 60s and 70s. Hope this helps, and goog luck with your search.

[BSGSV]

Sorry, I missed this enquiry earlier. Notes I have say the length of the cabin is 17 feet 9 inches long, by 10 feet 5 inches wide. The extension at the station end under the stairs was 3 feet 9 inches. The operating floor was 8 feet approximately above ground level and 6 feet 6 inches high. Timber front to the operating floor and most of each sides, with brick rear wall. No windows in the base. The odd diagonal "hole" accommodates the end of the girder on which the lever frame is mounted, the girder being supported by the end walls. The lever frame was a Westinghouse A2, 32 levers, 4 inches lever centre to lever centre, mounted at the rear of the cabin. The cabin probably dates from 1932 when the station was resignalled with LMS upper quadrant semaphores, becoming the only location on the island of Ireland with a large number of upper quadrant signals. In latter years, the cabin worked short section to Magheramorne with No.6 Tyer's Tablet and long section to Whitehead with Railway Signal Company key token.

Edited September 23, 2019 by BSGSV

[LARNE CABIN]

BSGSV, thank you so much for such detailed information. Your measurements match almost exactly what I had worked out from photographs, counting bricks etc., so it is great to have exact measurements. Thank you so much. I am progressing very slowly, but eventually hope to have an accurate model. As you seem to have a lot of detailed information, do you have any notes on the height of the square post on the signal at the end of the platform (from ground level to walkway)?. I have estimated 16 to 17 feet. Any ideas? Again, I am scratch building and hope to produce an accurate signal.

[BSGSV]

The short answer is I don't have measurements of the signals - the cabin was still there when I was rambling about, long after the signals themselves had gone. The platform bracket signal seems to possibly be an older one, with new arms, given the "parachute" finials. A photo I have seen indicates that the top of an 80-class passing the signal is about level with the bottom of the shunt signal posts bracketed out lower than the two main signals. You could estimate from that, perhaps?

[LARNE CABIN]

Yes, I have a number of photos like that and have been trying to relate the walkway and the two main signal posts and signal arms in comparison to the main post, so l think I am happy with my 16 to 17 feet estimate. Thanks again for your help.

[Johannes Houtsma]

On 9/18/2019 at 12:03 PM, LARNE CABIN said:

Hi Johannes, as I started this thread on Larne Harbour Station, I thought I should reply to you. I am working on a model of Larne Harbour Station in the 1970's. My progress is very slow, but I have collected lots of photos and am currently working on the signal cabin. My eventual aim is to produce a compact, but accurate model. If you goggle 'Larne Harbour Mixed Guage' you will find a brilliant photo of the station area in 1936, and there a lot of good photos of around the station area, but mostly 60s and 70s. Hope this helps, and goog luck with your search.

thanks for the info. I found the picture of 1936. so you are working on a model of Larne Harbour Station, my question is: "how much space will it take to build that whole area". An other question:: "how did those locomotives turned there. Is there a turntable? 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Johannes Houtsma

[LARNE CABIN]

Hi Johannes, as I said at the start of this thread, my space is limited to a 6ft by about 20ins alcove, so I am restricted. Nonetheless, I think I can produce a fairly accurate model of the site as it was in the 1970's. The layout was much simplified by then, but still the same basic structure. I reckon that to model the whole area as it was in that picture would take about 10ft by by 4ft.

There was no turntable at Larne Harbour. The engine that hauled the train in was uncoupled, and another engine backed unto the train to haul it away on its return journey to Belfast. The engine that hauled the train in then ran into a siding and waited to haul back the next train. As well, there was a run round facility where the engine was uncoupled and run round it's train and coupled up for the return journey. I intend to have a run round on my model so that a jeep can run round it's train.

[Johannes Houtsma]

thank you for this information. i am restricted to, so I have to find out how all do it.  and one last question, I hope, which scale is this OO or for me HO? That rum around where was that situated? I got this one yesterday from Alan O'Rourke

Edited October 7, 2019 by Johannes Houtsma

[LARNE CABIN]

Hi Johannes, that is a brilliant plan from Alan, so much detail as of 1930's, a massive challenge to model anything remotely near that! As I said, my model will be 1970's, much simplified track layout etc., but basic structure still intact. I have built my baseboard and almost completed a first go at my track layout to see how it fits and where I need to compromise. I hope to post a few photographs soon. Good luck with anything you are trying to do.

[LARNE CABIN]

I have read many times that part of the enjoyment of modelling is the preparation, investigation, design etc. This forum is truly inspirational and as my aim is accuracy and realism in a limited space I have learned a lot from Tony's Omagh Goods Yard, Patrick's GNRI Signal Box and Waiting Shed and later NCC Diorama, Gerry's Diesel Depot and Paul's Galgorm Hall Ballymena Signal Box, these just picked out as four among many.

I have been working on three aspects Larne Harbour, first the baseboard build (Sundeala Board) for my limited alcove space. Track laying experiments in progress, trying to fit a good representation into a limited space.

I have had to shorten the platform length and I have left out the turnout from the main platform road, as including it makes the platform look even shorter. However, I have used poetic licence and included a run round on the sidings so that when I eventually get to operate the layout I can shunt some of Leslie's Brown Vans. I think I have captured the sweeping curve into the station. There is room on left foreground for a bit of Harbour Road and Larne Aluminium Works. Olderfleet Road bridge over track in right foreground.

 

 

After the sweeping curve, the two main defining features are the Signal Box and the Upper Quadrant Platform Starting Signal. I have been working with scale drawings and cardboard cut outs to get an accurate 4mm scale Signal Box and hope to achieve something as good as Paul's Ballymena Signal Box. Most of the base and roof will be from LCUT Creative Materials and the windows from Scale Model Scenery, Lever Frame from Severn Models.

 

 

For the Upper Quadrant Platform Starting Signal, again I have been working from scale drawings I have painstakingly produced, starting point 7ft, 28mm walkway, from a Ratio Kit. Main Post and shunt signal posts will be Balsa Wood Strip, brackets from LCUT Creative, signal posts from Ratio and signal arms from MSE.

 

Other defining features for Larne Harbour would be the distinctive platform canopy and swan neck lamp.

My next piece of work will be to order materials for the signal box and start working on the build for it, so more pictures on progress in a month or so! 

[David Holman]

Certainly coming on well. Especially like the way the track avoids being parallel to the baseboard edges - always gives a better, more spacious feel to things somehow.

 No doubt deep overhangs on the roof are designed to shade the (liquid) sunshine?!

[jhb171achill]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:02 AM, Johannes Houtsma said:

dear people. I have a question. I have a model railway but because I live in the Netherlands it is all German. I would love to have the English/Irish railway models, locomotives and so on. I do love Northern Ireland and that's way I would love to have some information about the old larne harbour station. how the railway was situated at the harbour. i already have contact with; http://irishrailarchives.ie/ and they have drawings of the old station. but do I want to have some authentity I need to know how everything was there. Hope you can give me some pictures or other things. sincerely Johannes Houtsma. around 1930 will be my model railway.

Hello Johannes, and welcome.

You ask about authenticity of models for Larne Harbour.

It depends on what period you are modelling. From the mid-1950s, passenger multiple units have monopolised, with locomotives rarer.

General goods traffic ended by 1965, but parcels traffic was retained, sometimes in container wagons, on into the 1980s.

If you want a pre-1950 scenario, the dual narrow gauge track is essential - you don't have to have narrow gauge models, though! Steam engines were supreme. You can amend several British (LMS) prototypes to make a decent approximation of the standard 2.6.4T tanks engines which operated on the line. Equally, an LMS 4.4.0 can approximate, or be amended to, a "U2" class 4.4.0. Few other steam engines were ever seen there after 1950.

Bachmann do several LMS (English) coaches which are very very similar to several NCC prototypes, so steam-hauled carriages won't be a problem. In terms of wagons, Provincial Wagons and SSM do several wagons which might have gone there - an occasional CIE "H" van - VERY occasional - might have worked into there between about 1958 and 1965. Provincial's GNR goods brake van would suit, in extremely dirty condition. Ballast trains and (poetic licence?) the UTA / NIR's "spoil trains" might make an appearance (1967-70).

Other than that, the big challenge is passenger stock. In the 1950s, 60s, 70s and early 80s, the various MPD railcars reigned supreme. There's no way round scratch-building these, as hardly two were alike! Then, from 1974, the 80 class railcars would monopolise all services, with the assistance of the ghastly "Castle Class" sets, until about ten years ago. Nowadays, the CAF railcars - a half-reasonable approximation can be had by a repaint of some British prototypes - don't ask me, as I'm not a "modern railcar person"! But I've seen some models which look very convincing.

The NIR "Hunslet" locos would hardly ever have turned up in Larne, and when they did only with maintenance trains. The same is true of the three NIR "111" (or 071) types.

You could employ another bit of "poetic licence" and have a Hunslet (there's a kit somewhere) with a three-coach push/pull Mk 2 set. The very last time I travelled behind a Hunslet was in the early 1990s with 101 pushing a three-coach Mk 2 set on a suburban all-stops from Central to Lisburn. Such a set could have gone to Larne at that time.

Nothing to stop the odd RPSI train turning up. Maybe a set of RPSI Mk 2s and a "preserved" steam engine?

Hope this is useful.

[Patrick Davey]

Verrrrrrry nice work LC and thank you for the mention!

[popeye]

Working from a real track plan gives this much more realism by placing track in positions that

you would not think of doing yourself, which is something i really like in a layout. 

Looking forward to more progress. 

[Johannes Houtsma]

20 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Hello Johannes, and welcome.

You ask about authenticity of models for Larne Harbour.

It depends on what period you are modelling. From the mid-1950s, passenger multiple units have monopolised, with locomotives rarer.

General goods traffic ended by 1965, but parcels traffic was retained, sometimes in container wagons, on into the 1980s.

If you want a pre-1950 scenario, the dual narrow gauge track is essential - you don't have to have narrow gauge models, though! Steam engines were supreme. You can amend several British (LMS) prototypes to make a decent approximation of the standard 2.6.4T tanks engines which operated on the line. Equally, an LMS 4.4.0 can approximate, or be amended to, a "U2" class 4.4.0. Few other steam engines were ever seen there after 1950.

Bachmann do several LMS (English) coaches which are very very similar to several NCC prototypes, so steam-hauled carriages won't be a problem. In terms of wagons, Provincial Wagons and SSM do several wagons which might have gone there - an occasional CIE "H" van - VERY occasional - might have worked into there between about 1958 and 1965. Provincial's GNR goods brake van would suit, in extremely dirty condition. Ballast trains and (poetic licence?) the UTA / NIR's "spoil trains" might make an appearance (1967-70).

Other than that, the big challenge is passenger stock. In the 1950s, 60s, 70s and early 80s, the various MPD railcars reigned supreme. There's no way round scratch-building these, as hardly two were alike! Then, from 1974, the 80 class railcars would monopolise all services, with the assistance of the ghastly "Castle Class" sets, until about ten years ago. Nowadays, the CAF railcars - a half-reasonable approximation can be had by a repaint of some British prototypes - don't ask me, as I'm not a "modern railcar person"! But I've seen some models which look very convincing.

The NIR "Hunslet" locos would hardly ever have turned up in Larne, and when they did only with maintenance trains. The same is true of the three NIR "111" (or 071) types.

You could employ another bit of "poetic licence" and have a Hunslet (there's a kit somewhere) with a three-coach push/pull Mk 2 set. The very last time I travelled behind a Hunslet was in the early 1990s with 101 pushing a three-coach Mk 2 set on a suburban all-stops from Central to Lisburn. Such a set could have gone to Larne at that time.

Nothing to stop the odd RPSI train turning up. Maybe a set of RPSI Mk 2s and a "preserved" steam engine?

Hope this is useful.

thank you for this information. it will be around the 1950s. I already have the railtracks from that time and now I am looking for the station-building. How it looked like which colors the station had and so on

On 11/5/2019 at 11:46 AM, LARNE CABIN said:

I have read many times that part of the enjoyment of modelling is the preparation, investigation, design etc. This forum is truly inspirational and as my aim is accuracy and realism in a limited space I have learned a lot from Tony's Omagh Goods Yard, Patrick's GNRI Signal Box and Waiting Shed and later NCC Diorama, Gerry's Diesel Depot and Paul's Galgorm Hall Ballymena Signal Box, these just picked out as four among many.

I have been working on three aspects Larne Harbour, first the baseboard build (Sundeala Board) for my limited alcove space. Track laying experiments in progress, trying to fit a good representation into a limited space.

I have had to shorten the platform length and I have left out the turnout from the main platform road, as including it makes the platform look even shorter. However, I have used poetic licence and included a run round on the sidings so that when I eventually get to operate the layout I can shunt some of Leslie's Brown Vans. I think I have captured the sweeping curve into the station. There is room on left foreground for a bit of Harbour Road and Larne Aluminium Works. Olderfleet Road bridge over track in right foreground.

 

 

After the sweeping curve, the two main defining features are the Signal Box and the Upper Quadrant Platform Starting Signal. I have been working with scale drawings and cardboard cut outs to get an accurate 4mm scale Signal Box and hope to achieve something as good as Paul's Ballymena Signal Box. Most of the base and roof will be from LCUT Creative Materials and the windows from Scale Model Scenery, Lever Frame from Severn Models.

 

 

For the Upper Quadrant Platform Starting Signal, again I have been working from scale drawings I have painstakingly produced, starting point 7ft, 28mm walkway, from a Ratio Kit. Main Post and shunt signal posts will be Balsa Wood Strip, brackets from LCUT Creative, signal posts from Ratio and signal arms from MSE.

 

Other defining features for Larne Harbour would be the distinctive platform canopy and swan neck lamp.

My next piece of work will be to order materials for the signal box and start working on the build for it, so more pictures on progress in a month or so! 

beautiful and now you can really see how it looks like. thank you for sharing

[jhb171achill]

Johannes, you ask what colour stations were painted then.

Woodwork was a darkish leaf green an cream, or occasionally darkish leaf green and a very light grey. Doorframes, window frames and doors darker green.

Station nameboards yellow with black letters. Ironwork of gutters same dark green, downpies too. Metal supports for, say, notice boards or station name-boards, black or dark grey usually. Sometimes cream colou with bottom half-metre black.

If you had any small corrugated iron huts at the lineside, these were usually light grey painted, possibly with lack at bottom near ground level.

Edited November 6, 2019 by jhb171achill

[Johannes Houtsma]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Johannes, you ask what colour stations were painted then.

Woodwork was a darkish leaf green an cream, or occasionally darkish leaf green and a very light grey. Doorframes, window frames and doors darker green.

Station nameboards yellow with black letters. Ironwork of gutters same dark green, downpies too. Metal supports for, say, notice boards or station name-boards, black or dark grey usually. Sometimes cream colou with bottom half-metre black.

If you had any small corrugated iron huts at the lineside, these were usually light grey painted, possibly with lack at bottom near ground level.

Thank you for this information. Do you by change also know how the station looked like? how big it was. or do you know were I can get the drawings of this station

[Irishswissernie]

A few from my Flickr album , the Geep is from ca 1964 and UG49 probably late 50's . The station building/overall roof is adjacent to No 49 and was quite ornate.

Ernie

Edited November 7, 2019 by Irishswissernie

[LARNE CABIN]

Thanks Ernie for that photo of the Jeep. That gives a lot of detail for the platform canopy and swan neck lamp both of which I will want to replicate.

[jhb171achill]

The station plans, or some of them, may possibly be in the IRRS collection in Dublin. If they aren't there, I'd say you'd be relying on photos.

In any event, it's unlikely you'd have room for the entire complex of all buildings made to scale. On most layouts, buildings are scaled down to at least some extent.

Those colour 1960s photos are great!

[NIR]

All I can add is that I don't really remember the old station buildings in the early 70s, only that you walked past them on the platform rather than through them to the platform as you usually would at a terminus. More a waiting room under the canopy really, maybe of weatherboard construction and painted white. In the first of Ernie's photos you can just about see one corner of it on the far left.

Edited November 7, 2019 by NIR

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, NIR said:

All I can add is that I don't really remember the old station buildings in the early 70s, only that you walked past them on the platform rather than through them to the platform as you usually would at a terminus. More a waiting room under the canopy really, maybe of weatherboard construction and painted white. In the first of Ernie's photos you can just about see one corner of it on the far left.

I think most of them were removed after goods traffic ceased in 1965.

To Johannes again: Re-reading your original post, I note that your period is 1950s, and I forgot to mention initially that this is easier to model. If you are in there before it's railcar-time, there are actually more options with ready-or-nearly-ready-to-run. You can buy various types of English LMS coaches, both steel and (mostly) wood-panelled, which are as near as anything to NCC types. get them IN actual LMS livery, which was the same as the NCC, except for lettering. You won't even have to worry about crests on them, as most post-war carriage repaints didn't carry the LMS crest. If there's someone who does "LMS NCC" transfers of a suitable scale, that will cover a lot. By 1951, you're looking at roughly half the carriages in LMS maroon, and half newly repainted into the UTA's dark green. It's possible to get 00 scale UTA crests (the pre-1960 "roundel" or "red hand" type).

Wagons - Leslie's "brown vans" - you'll need a lot of these for your parcels traffic! Some in bauxite brown with NCC markings, some in plain UTA green. Any oul open wagons will do, and you can buy LMS shade wagon grey from Humbrol or whatever they're called now.

Locomotives - there's bound to be a British 0.6.0 which will approximate to an NCC 0.6.0 (X class, I think). LMS 4.4.0s can be altered to look like an NCC"U2" class.

If there's ever a RTR "Jeep", buy six - yes. it'll be well worth selling your car. (Ye listening, Pat?) 

You'd need a "boat train" of NCC corridor stock, plus a couple of three to four coach local trains, of old wooden bodied stock.

[NIR]

7 hours ago, NIR said:

All I can add is that I don't really remember the old station buildings in the early 70s, only that you walked past them on the platform rather than through them to the platform as you usually would at a terminus. More a waiting room under the canopy really, maybe of weatherboard construction and painted white. In the first of Ernie's photos you can just about see one corner of it on the far left.

Well doesn't the mind play tricks. Can't argue with photos

Brick

 

Canopy profile

 

General view

 

Corrugated iron, was it blown up sometime?

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by NIR

[jhb171achill]

Not sure, but it certainly looked better in the 1950s!

[NIR]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:59 PM, jhb171achill said:

Not sure, but it certainly looked better in the 1950s!

It looks a bit 30s modern or 40s utility to me.

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, NIR said:

It looks a bit 30s modern or 40s utility to me.

You mean the original wooden buildings? They're actually a good bit older. The utilitarian-looking shelter in the pic with the MPD railcar is a mixture - much older pillars and supports but 1960s roof & awning.

When the narrow gauge went, few changes took place for over a decade, but once they disposed of goods traffic (1965), they had the usual UTA "rationalisation"....!

[LARNE CABIN]

Just spotted this 1973 picture which just gives a glimpse of a rather pristine Signal Cabin, but also interestingly, a rare view of Harbour Road and the Aluminium Works.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by LARNE CABIN