Working and Public Timetables

[Mike 84C]

Is there any WTT information out there for the West Cork Lines? I'm particularly interested in trains to and from Bantry  '50's until closure. From what I read the service was quite sparse  but two trains a day is not going to keep the public interested ! and we need to  build an operating sequence for the layout. Hope you quys can help and thanks in advance.

            Mick

[jhb171achill]

Yes. Gimme a year and I’ll post it here.

I actually worked out a sequence some years ago and came to the conclusion that a realistic mix was (from memory) 7 locos, one bring a pilot in Cork, and one AEC railcar set which did two return trips a day.
I thinks that’s what it was.

I opted for five “C” class, 90, and 464 for the locos. A GSWR tank engine would be another option.

Its a shame the J15s never set foot there - indeed, I'm unaware of ANY tender engines going anywhere in West Cork ever.

[Irishswissernie]

 

June 1957 Working Timetable on my Flickr CB&SC  Album ( They are not copyright the overlay was added on the whole album in error)

Ernie

Edited February 14, 2020 by Irishswissernie
boob in adding links!

[jhb171achill]

OK, 1960 to start, then 1930.

 

 

Now, 1930.

This will include Macroom, Kinsale and Schull (S & SLR).

If there is any other year you need, i think I have all from 1926 at least. I also have appendix supplements regarding signal cabin hours, loco whistle codes and cattle traffic arrangements, all that sort of thing.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Trying to crop them, turn 'em right way up, etc., but I can't work out how!

[Irishswissernie]

If you can find a copy of this book, privately published a few years ago 186 page hardback , plenty of text and illustrated in colour and monochrome with contributions from numerous enthusiasts and photographers. Covers the last years of the railway.

I can't remember how I found out about it, inside the front cover is the name Print & Publish, St Neots, Cambs and a phone number 01480 400290

Its somewhat rare , I have never found another copy.

regards Ernie

[jhb171achill]

I had a copy of that, but to be fair, it's not a great book. The info, yes, but not much unseen elsewhere  - no author or publisher is mentioned in it. It appears to be privately published. The pages in my copy started coming apart almost as soon as I opened and I have to be honest - I dumped it as a result.....

Probably the best archive of photos is Jimmy O'Dea's stuff at www.nli.ie, or the photos of Henry and Richard Casserley which have appeared in various other books.

The West Cork system is probably best covered by Ernie Shepherd's book some years ago, but this was short on post-1925 info and especially photos.

Edited February 14, 2020 by jhb171achill

[StevieB]

You could have a look at Colm Creedon’s collection online at Cork County Library. It makes fascinating reading.

Stephen

[Broithe]

52 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Trying to crop them, turn 'em right way up, etc., but I can't work out how!

Who could possibly have foreseen that..?

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, StevieB said:

You could have a look at Colm Creedon’s collection online at Cork County Library. It makes fascinating reading.

Stephen

The Cork Area IRRS's Ray Good, who lives near the erstwhile Clonakilty Junction, is probably the best expert alive on the latter days of the West Cork lines. If anyone wants, I'll put you in touch with him.

[leslie10646]

Jon

You're right about your choice of locos / stock, as Lance King's photos show exactly that selection.

For the Tramway to Courtmacsherry, you can add a MGWR 0-6-0T - as Andy Cundick shows on his layout.

The other loco, not so easy to source, would be an Ivatt 2-4-2T tank, but only for the trip working between Glanmire and Albert Quay through the streets! Lance took a super photo of one crossing the River Lee two weeks before the End.

Mick, I was about to tell you to go to a library night at IRRS Dublin and visit the Holy of Holies where you'll find not just the WTTs but also the Weekly notices which would give you a heads up on beet and fair specials.

Then I remembered where you lived!!!

Ernie has done a good job above, but if you want other years, I have some CIE WTTs here and consulted them when putting my recent talk on Lance's stuff together.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Jon

You're right about your choice of locos / stock, as Lance King's photos show exactly that selection.

For the Tramway to Courtmacsherry, you can add a MGWR 0-6-0T - as Andy Cundick shows on his layout.

The other loco, not so easy to source, would be an Ivatt 2-4-2T tank, but only for the trip working between Glanmire and Albert Quay through the streets! Lance took a super photo of one crossing the River Lee two weeks before the End.

Mick, I was about to tell you to go to a library night at IRRS Dublin and visit the Holy of Holies where you'll find not just the WTTs but also the Weekly notices which would give you a heads up on beet and fair specials.

Then I remembered where you lived!!!

Ernie has done a good job above, but if you want other years, I have some CIE WTTs here and consulted them when putting my recent talk on Lance's stuff together.

Quite late into the '50s, the Ivatt tank would also get a spin down the main line a couple of times a month when the railcar set was away for maintenance! I think a "C" or another railcar set took over before the "End"!

[Irishswissernie]

I also have the WTT for 31May 1948. The service then was even worse than in the 1950's Cork to Baltimore was treated as the main line with a single connection each way to Bantry from Drimoleague. The sole passenger service was designed to bring passengers to Cork in the morning with a return service in the evening. Probably due to post war coal shortages etc 

My copy of the West Cork book has no binding problems.

Ernie

[David Holman]

Stuff like this is what makes this forum so wonderful!

[DiveController]

23 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I had a copy of that, but to be fair, it's not a great book. The info, yes, but not much unseen elsewhere  - no author or publisher is mentioned in it. It appears to be privately published. The pages in my copy started coming apart almost as soon as I opened and I have to be honest - I dumped it as a result.....

Probably the best archive of photos is Jimmy O'Dea's stuff at www.nli.ie, or the photos of Henry and Richard Casserley which have appeared in various other books.

The West Cork system is probably best covered by Ernie Shepherd's book some years ago, but this was short on post-1925 info and especially photos.

The author appears to be Michael Patterson, although the book does not have an ISBN and seems to be a print and publish as indicated above. Any new material on the closed railways is better in print than lost and although the photos are a little small and the book is maybe not of a completely similar standard to that produced by a larger professional printer, it has merit especially to those who might be familiar with that area. There is nothing wrong with my copy. One could argue that Colm Creedon's books are kind of a mess but it doesn't mean I don't have a copy of those too. Its a collection of reminiscences of the locals near the end of the railway

https://beneathesummergrowth.wordpress.com

I don't know if it is still in stock. This may be where I go try copy at some point ( I don't recall)

https://www.modelvillage.ie/product/the-railways-of-west-cork-reflections-reminiscences/

The NLI has  copy

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000735162

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by DiveController

[Irishswissernie]

43 minutes ago, DiveController said:

The author appears to be Michael Patterson, although the book does not have an ISBN and seems to be a print and publish as indicated above. Any new material on the closed railways is better in print than lost and although the photos are a little small and the book is maybe not on a completely similar standard to that produced by a larger professional printer, it has merit especially to those who might be familiar with that area. There is nothing wrong with my copy. One could argue that Colm Creedon's books are kind of a mess but it doesn't mean I don't have a copy of those too. Its a collection of reminiscences of the locals near the end of the railway

 

 

Thanks , Michael Patterson - I couldn't remember his name! plus his email was not  his name.  I obtained my copy direct from him back in 2015. He sent me some excellent extra Bandon images but I can't put them on the net as I don't have permission. From the various photographers and reminiscences in the book he  appears well connected to other Bandon enthusiasts. I especially like the Chris Gammell colour views of the Courtmacsherry line, the slides are buried in the IRRS Archives.

Its a pity the IRRS don't make more use of their Photo Gallery on the Internet site. Only 77 images out of thousands in the 'vaults'.

Just added this one to Flickr, Coutmacsherry branch at Ballinascarthy, HC Casserley neg

Ernie

 

 

 

[DiveController]

19 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

It's a pity the IRRS don't make more use of their Photo Gallery on the Internet site. Only 77 images out of thousands in the 'vaults'.

That's a shame to have a repository that large that's only available to those within reasonable geographical striking distance. The online folder is restricted to IRRS members only

Edited February 15, 2020 by DiveController

[Mike 84C]

Seek and ye shall find. Thank you so much to all who took the time to reply to my request. The scanned timetables will be of great help, now for lots of printer fun or not!  

[leslie10646]

5 hours ago, DiveController said:

That's a shame to have a repository that large that's only available to those within reasonable geographical striking distance. The online folder is restricted to IRRS members only

Not an official IRRS statement, but from member working in this area:

Fair comment, Kevin, I think I can say "we are working on it" - meaning the NUMBER of images there.

However, is it SO unreasonable that images collected, scanned and maintained by The Society should be exclusively available to those who support it through their membership?

A couple of us are looking at ways of making low-res versions visible, with a high res print available to buy.

 

[DiveController]

5 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Not an official IRRS statement, but from member working in this area:

Fair comment, Kevin, I think I can say "we are working on it" - meaning the NUMBER of images there.

However, is it SO unreasonable that images collected, scanned and maintained by The Society should be exclusively available to those who support it through their membership?

A couple of us are looking at ways of making low-res versions visible, with a high res print available to buy.

 

HI Leslie,

Not unreasonable at all to make it available to members but right now it is not available to many at all. I'm not sure what the mission(s) of the IRRS is but I'm sure that probably includes supporting Irish railways, their history, modelers historians etc. It is wonderful that so much information has been amassed and preserved and I know it takes a substantial effort from the custodians to get it online, but that being said, the custodians of these photographs also have a responsibility to act to ensure that this information is preserved and available. There have been many iterations on this forum regarding railway history being squirreled away in private collections. While this may not be the intent  at present it seems de facto to be the effect.

With present technology it has become easier to digitize, preserve and make these available to those with an interest in them. You do not even have to entrust it to Flickr if you so choose. It could be on its own server (backed up remotely) to safeguard it in the event of another loss of an online photo repository. This would be paid for by subscription as you suggest or it could be on a free or nearly free online on Flickr etc. It is not for me as a non-member to advise the IRRS on the best way to do this but if it is not done then interest in the field will dwindle. Several Irish preservation efforts have failed for various reasons and it is sensible to safeguard what we have now for the future.

My interests in Irish railways extends well before I was even on this planet, through exposure to many books written and photos taken before I was even born. Although many other members of this forum are much more knowledgeable than I, I try to contribute what I learn to share and stimulation interest from others. Ernie's railway achieve on Flickr is an amazing achievement (a one man show I think) and several other online collections are hugely interesting and  informative.

In my opinion high res prints available to buy are a waste of time to me. I would prefer to pay whatever I need to paid (if subscription it is) and browse what is of interest like the O Dea collection. The details are import, coach details, numbers, line side & background details not the main focus of the photographer etc. Right now there is no way to see what is available that I might want to subscribe to. 

This are just my opinions and they are intended to be constructive to your good self and the society.

Regards, K

Edited February 16, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

The O'Dea collection, thankfully, is publicly available. Even before online platforms, you could make an appointment to go into the National Photographic Archive and browse O'Dea and Lawrence to your hearts content.

J P O'Dea specifically wanted his pics to be seen, and rightly so, and this is precisely why he did not donate them to other places!

It is good to have this, and Ernie's absolutely invaluable archive.

[Galteemore]

Agreed !! This is one of my hunting grounds - the Bluebell Railway archive of JJ Smith’s Irish stuff, http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/i/index.htm,. It’s fascinating as you can track his movements around the SLNC just before closure and afterwards. He had the wit to record some really interesting stuff including the BCDR main line - four years after closure but still intact.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Galteemore

[minister_for_hardship]

For what it's worth, any filing, sorting, scanning, putting things online the IRRS does is done by someone on a voluntary basis, the state pays someone to do the same function in the NLI. 

In an ideal world, a branch of the National Museum would cover industrial heritage and railways. But since there is little interest there in such things it's up to regional museums that may actually take an interest (Limerick and Waterford city museums have an online presence with heaps of rail images) and the IRRS.

[jhb171achill]

Very true, minister - in my remark, no criticism of the voluntary work within the IRRS was intended as such. 

[minister_for_hardship]

33 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Very true, minister - in my remark, no criticism of the voluntary work within the IRRS was intended as such. 

I gather that. In order to have these things online for all to see, resources have to be funded for storage, materials, maintenance, web hosting etc. be that by subscription and/or from the public purse. So if people are interested and have the means, join the IRRS if you want this archive to keep going.

Edited February 16, 2020 by minister_for_hardship

[Irishswissernie]

I am all for photographers negatives, slides etc being donated or acquired by Railway Societies. However what seems to happen in a great number of cases is that such material is then (I hope) scanned ,identified, catalogued and safeguarded for future generations.

All of this has to be done by volunteers, however in many cases it then goes into the vaults and remains unseen and forgotten or is only available at 'base'. 

It is appropriate that any material put on- line should be available only to members as this makes the Society more attractive to become a member thereby increasing membership, financial standing etc thereby possibly facilitating the production of magazines, publications etc.

I started acquiring negs and slides to pursue my own interests in the knowledge that if I didn't get them they would in the vast number of cases go into a private collection and never be seen again. Plus I don't drive, not allowed to drink and I think buying used negs/slides is tax free. The work involved in scanning, identifying, cataloging (if only!) etc is the hard part, but very interesting. I have done perhaps 100,000 plus , my mate at the ARPT reckons he's done 400,000.

Putting them on flickr is easy and relatively secure (one needs to put on a copyright overlay ) It also is a means of interacting in the hobby with other enthusiasts and is becoming especially more so as I become what the wife describes as housebound, senile, decrepit, embittered and cantankerous. 

I don't do prints , too time consuming and post extortionate, however if anyone wants the odd scan and its my 'copyright' for personal use please ask. Requests for including in books a small fee, Society etc articles publications no charge.

I shall close with a photo Macmine Junction 9july1960 saloon 352 HC Casserley

Ernie

OOPS all this by the way is (as usual) Off Topic!

 

 

[jhb171achill]

That carriage was scheduled for preservation by CIE but was scrapped!

Had it survived, it would almost certainly have gone with “Maedb” and would now reside in Cultra.

[Galteemore]

Shame! But as we both know, the reality is that it would probably have spent the 70s and early 80s mouldering outside Witham Street until it decayed into oblivion , or been reduced to ashes by the East Antrim Arsonists who regularly targeted Whitehead! 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

True, Galteemore.......

To go back to topic, the following public timetable (1958) makes it easier to work out passenger turns in West Cork. 

As you can see, some ECS workings were very much the norm.

The entire Cork - Bantry service was worked by one AEC set - a necessary RTR thing, by the way, for the entire CIE and GNR systems, and a lot of the UTA & early NIR....

[Galteemore]

Fascinating stuff. Is that the timetable in its entirety? Just seems that nothing arrived in Albert Quay before 1035! Must have made commuting rather difficult....

[jhb171achill]

Yep, as far as passengers were concerned, that’s it!

[h gricer]

12 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

For what it's worth, any filing, sorting, scanning, putting things online the IRRS does is done by someone on a voluntary basis, the state pays someone to do the same function in the NLI. 

In an ideal world, a branch of the National Museum would cover industrial heritage and railways. But since there is little interest there in such things it's up to regional museums that may actually take an interest (Limerick and Waterford city museums have an online presence with heaps of rail images) and the IRRS.

Thank you, finally somebody on here gets it, I’ve been a member of the IRRS now for 38 years, and over many months on this forum I’ve read many comments regarding access to the photographic archive etc. and most of it basically untrue, derogatory words being used like ‘’squirreling’’ and slurs implying being unhelpful with photos, it actually amounts to slander and does nothing to encourage its very tiny number and hard working number volunteers. The IRRS are NOT the NLI, who have a fully paid staff, public body with bottomless finance and have their collections freely available to VIEW!!! The comparison is totally out of proportion its ridiculous. But NLI photos are not given away for nothing, some, but not always all, are freely available to view and browse, but make a purchase which I have done with some of the late member Jim O’Dea photos (often erroneously named as Jimmy here like the Comedian which he never ever was known by), now I haven’t got the latest price list, but over 10 years ago when I made my last purchase it was €10euro a print (and that was for personal use) if you purchased a print or prints to be used in any publication or promotion then the price of the print goes up to €70euro with credit going to the NLI, they own the copyright, what I’m basically saying, there’s nothing for nothing.

 

The IRRS is run purely on a voluntary basis with those giving their free time and often their own expense to benefit the society as well as helping others when and where appropriate and actually does need funding, for its Journal, equipment, storage, building (of which I know so well) and so on, the annual subscription alone doesn’t cover the cost, just covers the cost of the Journal, members make their photos freely available, while submitting photos to a magazine photographers get paid. The IRRS for what it is does an outstanding job particularly in recent years in saving photo collections (when I know previously nothing was ever done with them!!) and scanning them to the highest quality as every Journal I pay for and receive shows, to suggest and imply otherwise using those examples I mentioned at the start is nothing short of disrespect and hurtful to the individuals concerned. So nothing is free, if an individual joins The Zoology Society of Ireland they’ll give you a free pass and you can take a stroll around the zoo and view the animals, but they won’t let you take a lion home for the weekend, not even their members, see my point.

Regards

h.gricer

Edited February 16, 2020 by h gricer

[leslie10646]

The entire Cork - Bantry service was worked by one AEC set - a necessary RTR thing, by the way, for the entire CIE and GNR systems, and a lot of the UTA & early NIR....

All too true, Jon.

When I was researching that timetable to do the talk on Lance King's slides, I was initially taken in by the two trains a day, until I realised that most branches had a single train - by connecting into those trains - to or from Cork each day!

A pity the line didn't survive, as Dick Fearn would have had five trains a day on it and, I suspect with the popularity of West Cork these days - well filled.

ICRs to Bantry?  Or to visit The Lady from Baltimore (yeah, I know it was the US one, but it was a great song).

By the way guys, thanks for the comments on photos - I'll see they get passed on

[DiveController]

16 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

For what it's worth, any filing, sorting, scanning, putting things online the IRRS does is done by someone on a voluntary basis, the state pays someone to do the same function in the NLI. 

In an ideal world, a branch of the National Museum would cover industrial heritage and railways. But since there is little interest there in such things it's up to regional museums that may actually take an interest (Limerick and Waterford city museums have an online presence with heaps of rail images) and the IRRS.

I understand that, Minister and I hope that that was understood from my previous comments. As for the a regional museum taking a voluntary interest, that would seem unlikely from what I've seen. The IRRS might have to bequeath them to the NLI with stipulations of course to enlist such help.

15 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

I am all for photographers negatives, slides etc being donated or acquired by Railway Societies. However what seems to happen in a great number of cases is that such material is then (I hope) scanned ,identified, catalogued and safeguarded for future generations.

All of this has to be done by volunteers, however in many cases it then goes into the vaults and remains unseen and forgotten or is only available at 'base'. 

It is appropriate that any material put on- line should be available only to members as this makes the Society more attractive to become a member thereby increasing membership, financial standing etc thereby possibly facilitating the production of magazines, publications etc.

It is up to the society to make membership attractive or useful in some way in order to attract membership. For overseas members who cannot walk in on a Tuesday an online resource makes the most sense.

@h gricer I am certain that there have been many contributions to the survival of and acquisitions made by the IRRS due to its volunteers. I actually agree with many of your points but it is frequently very difficult to comment constructively on this forum without someone waiting to be indignant and defensive about a great many matters. I must assume from your rhetoric that I am included among the slanderous. Failing to gauge or react to the general perceptions regarding any institution or society may not necessarily a recipe for failure but certainly will do little to advance its mission. I'm sorry if you have perceived all of this as offensive after so much time spent at the IRRS and I want to get  it off this thread so please PM me if necessary. 

[Mayner]

Going back to the original thread passenger services appear to be pretty much secondary to goods on the West Cork and most other Irish secondary main lines.

The passenger service actually got worse on the Clonakilty Branch following the introduction of the C Class diesels the morning mixed train from Clonakilty Junction to Clonakilty  became a goods which worked the Timoleague & Courtmacsharry line as required.

C Class locomotive working appears to have been quite complicated as the locos working the main line goods trains were used to swap power with the branch locos.

In a way the West Cork would be excellent for a system layout with timetable working like Drew Donaldson's Dublin-Cork main line, Sam Carse's Donegal or Castlerackrent modelling a number of main line stations and branch terminals would be very interesting even with the 1940s & 50s sparse train services.