mm121 Sound decoder

[controller]

I have two 121 locos on order, black with white stripes. Which sound decoders do I need for these locos, EDM645 or EDM567?,or is there any difference?.

Thanks,

Controller.

[skinner75]

From a post on page 15 of the Murphys Models 121 Class thread:

MM0567 Class 121 DCC sound chip  SRP €125.00   EMD 8-567CR NT (Sound Decoder representing the Sound for these Locomotives when delivered with their  *GM 567 CA 8-Cylinder, twin bank, blower scavenged, developing 950 hp gross at 835 rpm, 875 hp traction. - Prior to engine transplants) 

MM0645 Class 121 DCC sound chip  SRP €125.00   EMD 8-645E NT (Sound Decoder representing the Sound of these Locomotives from Transplanted Engines. Engines from from withdrawn C Class (201) Locomotives were installed in  Class 121 Class Locomotives as and when it became necessary to replace engine power packs. *GM B-645 E 8 cylinder. twin bank, blower scavenged, developing 1,100 hp gross at 900 rpm, 1,040 hp traction.

*Information taken from  Irish Locomotives and Rolling Stock of Coras Iompair Eireann and Northern Ireland Railways - O.Doyle ans S. Hirsch

I'd reckon the 567 sound chip would be applicable to the older livery you have ordered, but I stand to be corrected on that

[Noel]

2 minutes ago, controller said:

I have two 121 locos on order, black with white stripes. Which sound decoders do I need for these locos, EDM645 or EDM567?,or is there any difference?.

Thanks,

Controller.

The difference in sound is negligible to many ears, but I guess the Black&Tan livery (ie black, white band, tan solebar) which ran from 1963 to about 1974-6 was powered by the original EMD567 engines, The other thought that occurred to me from experience is that running two locos in consist both with sound on can sound a bit dizzy and confused. Some sound decoder projects allow you to vary the engine note using a CV setting (ie so two locos do not sound identical). Personally when I run pairs of baby GMs in consist I only turn the sound on in the lead loco, because it just sounds better than two. But that's just me. Others might quite like both with sound on. WheelTappersDCCsound who did the decoders for all my baby GMs offered 3 engine pitch versions so that in consist a pair would not sound identical. I am making an assumption that the Murphy model commissioned chip may have a CV setting to facilitate something similar. There are subtle things when consisting sound locos, for instance you only want the horn to sound on the lead loco, but you want both to make braking noises at the same time, and only the tail loco to make uncoupling noises or buffer clash when commanded, etc. Then there's the whole area of running lights on a consist, set up for running as a pair hauling a train with brake lights at the end when travelling locos only (ie light engines) so brake lights on trailing loco, etc. All to look forward to exploring when the new models hit the rails.

[irishthump]

14 minutes ago, controller said:

I have two 121 locos on order, black with white stripes. Which sound decoders do I need for these locos, EDM645 or EDM567?,or is there any difference?.

Thanks,

Controller.

The 121's were fitted with the EMD567 at that time.

1 minute ago, Noel said:

The difference in sound is negligible to many ears, but I guess the Black&Tan livery (ie black, white band, tan solebar) which ran from 1963 to about 1974-6 was powered by the original EMD567 engines, The other thought that occurred to me from experience is that running two locos in consist both with sound on can sound a bit dizzy and confused. Some sound decoder projects allow you to vary the engine note using a CV setting (ie so two locos do not sound identical). Personally when I run pairs of baby GMs in consist I only turn the sound on in the lead loco, because it just sounds better than two. But that's just me. Others might quite like both with sound on. WheelTappersDCCsound who did the decoders for all my baby GMs offered 3 engine pitch versions so that in consist a pair would not sound identical. I am making an assumption that the Murphy model commissioned chip may have a CV setting to facilitate something similar. There are subtle things when consisting sound locos, for instance you only want the horn to sound on the lead loco, but you want both to make braking noises at the same time, and only the tail loco to make uncoupling noises or buffer clash when commanded, etc. Then there's the whole area of running lights on a consist, set up for running as a pair hauling a train with brake lights at the end when travelling locos only (ie light engines) so brake lights on trailing loco, etc. All to look forward to exploring when the new models hit the rails.

The pitch of the engine sound can be tweaked up or down on the Loksound decoders. I use the Lokprogrammer to do mine but it can be done with CV's easily enough. The same with the various sound functions, you can set up a loco so that only certain sounds will play while the loco is in consist. I do this with my own locos.

[controller]

Thank you gentlemen, EMD 567 are the ones I will order. Thank you for all that information. I think I will buy two and tinker around with the CVs and see what happens. Lots to look forward to. Thanks again gentlemen.

Controller.

[NIRCLASS80]

3 hours ago, controller said:

Thank you gentlemen, EMD 567 are the ones I will order. Thank you for all that information. I think I will buy two and tinker around with the CVs and see what happens. Lots to look forward to. Thanks again gentlemen.

Controller.

The sound of two decoders becoming slightly weird is easily sorted on the ESU Lokprogrammer. Just adjust the speed of the prime mover sound slot by as little as one percent and the problem is completely solved.
If you have a Lokprogrammer and this problem occurs when you get the two chips and you are unsure I will try and put together a few screenshots to help you out. 

[controller]

Thanks Lads, Thanks for all the info. Just a couple of questions, can the ESU Lokprogrammer adjust settings on all decoders, or just ESU decoders?. If so where is the best place to order them from, and around how much are they?.

Thanks,

Controller.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, controller said:

Thanks Lads, Thanks for all the info. Just a couple of questions, can the ESU Lokprogrammer adjust settings on all decoders, or just ESU decoders?. If so where is the best place to order them from, and around how much are they?.

Thanks,

Controller.

I got my LokProgrammer from https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com for €135 plus €3 postage.  I buy all my decoders from there also Lenz + ESU (ie for better price). LokProgrammer will only work with ESU decoders. However you may not need a LokProgrammer as you may be able to adjust some CV settings using your DCC controllers test track outputs. Blank LokSound V5 decoders are €95 from MBL. If you are prepared to go through the learning curve, you can make your own diesel loco DCC sound projects, or far quicker make small changes to existing projects. ESU publish a large range of sound projects including for Murphy Model 071 locos and 201 locos. I got baby GM LokSound decoders for my 141/181/121 locos from http://www.wheeltappersdccsounds.co.uk. Its relatively easy to do things like add Irish loco horns to a USA loco project. WheelTappers made up custom 121 decoders for me with additional features including 3 types of rail clank/flange squeal, distant horns, cascading buffer clash simulating a loose coupled train stopping, cascading coupling snatch simulating a loose coupled train starting off, etc. Personally what was really important was the driving characteristics such as coasting, braking over realistic distances, slow acceleration and notching/trashing simulating a heavy train starting off. No use having an ultra scale looking model if it behaves in an unprototypical manner like a scalextric toy accelerating faster than a Tesla Model S  

PS: If rolling your own, don't forget the added complexity of configuring lights and light mappings.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Noel
missing data

[controller]

Thanks Noel. I am glad I asked first before I went buying a LokProgammer. I have two 121 sound decoders ordered and payed for from Marks. I also have an A class ordered from IRM.I have two 071 and a 201 which are fitted with sound decoders. I have a couple of other small locos. Not a huge collection. I don't even have a permanent layout. When funds allow, I will look into wheeltappers for decoders for my two 141s. Like you say , I may be able to adjust some CV settings using my DCC controller. No doubt when all locos are delivered, I will be back to look for your help again.

Thanks,

Controller.

[murphaph]

I'm looking to have in the region of 20 locomotives on my layout which will be in a reasonably large ca. 3 x 10 metre space so most of not all of my locos will get sound.

I was leaning towards a Lokprogrammer and modifying free ESU sounds but it sounds like there are none for the baby GMs. What about the 121s?

Can you shed some more light please @Noel?

[Noel]

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

I'm looking to have in the region of 20 locomotives on my layout which will be in a reasonably large ca. 3 x 10 metre space so most of not all of my locos will get sound.

I was leaning towards a Lokprogrammer and modifying free ESU sounds but it sounds like there are none for the baby GMs. What about the 121s?

Can you shed some more light please @Noel?

Suggest Three possible options:

1. Buy the MM sound chips from your preferred retailer. Simplest solution.These are ESU Loksound V5 chips preprogrammed for 121
2. Buy the MM sound chips from a DCC sound decoder vendor such as WheelTappersDCCsound or MrSoundGuy. Both have 141 projects which should work fine in the 121 as its a standard sized LokSound V5 decoder chip according to released information from Murphy Models. Mr Soundguy uses Zimo decoders so you might need to check with Keith Pearson if the Zimo 21pin decoder will fit in the new Murphy Model 121.
3. Buy blank decoders from ModleBahnShop-Lippe in Germany and a LokSound, and program yourself. Steep learning curve, and you'll need Irish Horn sounds. LokSound have a freely publish library of all EMD loco motors for download. @irishthump and a few others have become quite expert at this.

Option 2 has sound chips for 141, 181, 121, 071, 201 and A class. Personally so far I've sourced all my baby GM sound chips from WheelTappersDCCsound 141,181 & 121. I'm about to start experimenting with LokProgrammer but just for fun. Buying black decoders from Germany saves about €20-30 per chip compared to UK rip off prices from most ESU retailers in UK.

Good luck with the layout. BTW, just a personal thing but generally I found having sound operation on more than one loco at the same time  on a layout sounds dizzy and not very real. No doppler effect (ie distance), and can sound confused. I generally prefer to have sound on only one loco at a time, especially when consisting.

 

PS: Bare in mind option 1 seems the safest bet as it will operate the lights correctly on the new 121, unless you go for option 3 and do all the function mapping yourself to correctly control the lights.

 

That's just my personal tuppence, others can weigh in, its a broad church.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Noel
missing data

[murphaph]

Thanks a lot Noel. Yeah I agree that a din of locos all emitting sound should be avoided. I have seen YouTube clips (I think it was Charlie Bishop and his Chadwick Model Railway channel) where he showed how he reduced the volume or muted it on all but locos in motion.

One could do that automatically using rocrail (my preferred train control software) as a base measure and then look at finer automatic control (eg only full volume for the loco currently under manual control).

I think I will stick with the Lokprogrammer route. I live in Germany so I can buy blank v5 chips from any of the vendors though the cheapest I've seen is around 90.

[connollystn]

I think that all model locomotives should come with a sound chip fitted, It'd save all the bother of trying to figure out which chip to buy.

[murphaph]

Hmmm that would be bad for a number of reasons.

For example, many people like to maintain a single decoder type so they have no variation in CVs.

Others, like me, need Railcom+ for their planned layouts.

[WRENNEIRE]

MM's chips are also programmed for the other functions of the 121. So I reckon buying the MM regular or sound chip would make best sense
His chip and PCB were designed in conjunction with each other and also with the 6 switches that are used for the various light functions on these locos
Any faults that arise from the use of non MM chips may also void your warranty them?

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by WRENNEIRE

[murphaph]

Simply using MM's chips is undoubtedly the easiest thing to do but I would really hope that using a third party DCC chip would not void the warranty in a DCC ready loco.

[WRENNEIRE]

I was talking about the Sound chip, I presume a standard chip might be OK but as I said because the PCB board and the chip were designed to work together there may be some warranty issues by using non MM chips, 

[irishthump]

16 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

I was talking about the Sound chip, I presume a standard chip might be OK but as I said because the PCB board and the chip were designed to work together there may be some warranty issues by using non MM chips, 

There would be no problem arising from using a different sound decoder. All they mean is that the MM chip has already been programmed to have all the lighting functions available, any  other decoder would need to be programmed with the correct functions. The 121 decoder is physically no different from any other ESU decoder, they just have the lighting functions programmed in already. If you buy a blank version of the same decoder you’ll need to programme these yourself which is a nightmare without a Lokprogrammer!

I think the point of the disclaimer is so that MM don’t have people sticking in a different decoder then ringing him an complaining - “the lights don’t work”. It’s the same issue people had with the 201 when it first came out. It has so many light functions that it needs a higher spec decoder for them to work.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, irishthump said:

There would be no problem arising from using a different sound decoder. All they mean is that the MM chip has already been programmed to have all the lighting functions available, any  other decoder would need to be programmed with the correct functions. The 121 decoder is physically no different from any other ESU decoder, they just have the lighting functions programmed in already. If you buy a blank version of the same decoder you’ll need to programme these yourself which is a nightmare without a Lokprogrammer!

I think the point of the disclaimer is so that MM don’t have people sticking in a different decoder then ringing him an complaining - “the lights don’t work”. It’s the same issue people had with the 201 when it first came out. It has so many light functions that it needs a higher spec decoder for them to work.

True enough. The easiest way is to copy an existing completed EMD sound project from ESU's freely published inventory of US locos and modify it by adding tracks for Irish horns, and map the lighting. A rather steep learning curve, but might be worth it for those prepared to put the hours in. It's easy to get the sound of Irish horns from all the youtube videos out there, just record a second or two using a smartphone from a youtube video, or mix it a little using iMovie, clean it up and save as an mp3 or WAV file for use with a LokProgrammer project. There's loads of sounds that can be scraped from the internet.

[Warbonnet]

17 minutes ago, Noel said:

True enough. The easiest way is to copy an existing completed EMD sound project from ESU's freely published inventory of US locos and modify it by adding tracks for Irish horns, and map the lighting. A rather steep learning curve, but might be worth it for those prepared to put the hours in. It's easy to get the sound of Irish horns from all the youtube videos out there, just record a second or two using a smartphone from a youtube video, or mix it a little using iMovie, clean it up and save as an mp3 or WAV file for use with a LokProgrammer project. There's loads of sounds that can be scraped from the internet.

Or just buy the Murphy Models sound decoder, plug it into the loco, and off you go. Plug and play, nice and simple. 

[irishthump]

10 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

Or just buy the Murphy Models sound decoder, plug it into the loco, and off you go. Plug and play, nice and simple. 

Exactly. I ordered the MM decoders for my 121’s. I love using the Lokprogrammer but if you can save yourself the work why not? I would have needed to buy decoders for them anyway!

32 minutes ago, Noel said: It's easy to get the sound of Irish horns from all the youtube videos out there, just record a second or two using a smartphone from a youtube video, or mix it a little using iMovie, clean it up and save as an mp3 or WAV file for use with a LokProgrammer project. There's loads of sounds that can be scraped from the internet.

It’s not that simple. Even a simple horn sound has quite a complex sound schedule that needs to be built from scratch. 

[irishthump]

On 6/24/2020 at 8:27 PM, controller said:

Thanks Noel. I am glad I asked first before I went buying a LokProgammer. I have two 121 sound decoders ordered and payed for from Marks. I also have an A class ordered from IRM.I have two 071 and a 201 which are fitted with sound decoders. I have a couple of other small locos. Not a huge collection. I don't even have a permanent layout. When funds allow, I will look into wheeltappers for decoders for my two 141s. Like you say , I may be able to adjust some CV settings using my DCC controller. No doubt when all locos are delivered, I will be back to look for your help again.

Thanks,

Controller.

Bear in mind the 121 chips will be a good fit for the 141/181’s as well. Even though they will be programmed for the specific lighting on the 121’s PCB it should work fine on a simpler loco like the 141/181. Even if the lighting is a little screwed up it would be a simple fix.

[controller]

Thanks all for all the info. Did MM ever bring out a sound decoder for the 141/181 loco?, or just the standard one?. Also I have two 141, both numbered 141. How do I remove the number from one of them, and replace it with another number?.

Controller.

[murrayec]

22 minutes ago, controller said:

Thanks all for all the info. Did MM ever bring out a sound decoder for the 141/181 loco?, or just the standard one?. Also I have two 141, both numbered 141. How do I remove the number from one of them, and replace it with another number?.

Controller.

A dab of T-Cut and cotton bud will remove the existing numbers and SSM do decal numbers for this job.

On hacking your own sound chips;- if your not a user of the ESU programmer- buy the MM chip and have an easier and less costly 121 life!

The 'Experts' would have you believe it's easy! - capture this, edit that, and learn to program the thingie!  'Don't'......

Eoin

Edited July 29, 2020 by murrayec

[controller]

Thanks Murrayec,wise words. I have two 121 locos ordered from Marks, and two MM 121 sound decoders already payed for, so that's that sorted. Can T-Cut, and SSM decals be bought in Marks, or do I need to go online?.

Controller

[murphaph]

I'm going to pickup a Lokprogrammer in any case. They come up used on eBay here (Germany) regularly enough. I'll snag one of those.

Could one buy a master MM decoder for each type and then copy all the CV settings (I stress NOT the copyright sound file which AFAIK cannot be read back out of a programmed decoded) and then "just" install your own sound file on a blank Loksound, using the saved CV data rather than programming from scratch?

This would not fall foul of any IP rules I believe but correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't need absolutely perfect sound. A good approximation of the engine from a US loco would be good enough for me but I would want all the lighting to work perfectly.

@controller: T-Cut you get in a motor factors. Be careful with it. I've seen videos of it removing the paint before the loco number. Charlie Bishop's Chadwick Model Railway YouTube channel has an episode on renumbering locos.

Edited July 29, 2020 by murphaph

[controller]

Thanks Murphaph, I will look up YouTube and anywhere else I can get advice,before I try to do anything.

Controller

[Noel]

5 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

On 7/28/2020 at 11:57 AM, Noel said:

Suggest Three possible options:

1. Buy the MM sound chips from your preferred retailer. Simplest solution.These are ESU Loksound V5 chips preprogrammed for 121

Or just buy the Murphy Models sound decoder, plug it into the loco, and off you go. Plug and play, nice and simple. 

Hi Fran. Agree 100%, yes indeed as per my recommendation above. Just like some folks like to build their own kits there are some who like to build their own sound projects. ESU makes this particularly accessible, although I keep reminding folk there is a learning curve and time required to master it. I can also understand some people setting out to convert an entire fleet of locos to sound may be attracted by the considerable cost savings of doing it themselves, but the old cliche 'penny wise, pound foolish' risks applying. I chose the former route and purchased all my sound decoders from establish suppliers of pre-programmed decoders. It was just easier, and as you say just worked out of the box, but my inner tech nerd is looking forward to the challenge of playing with LokProgrammer in the future. New challenges and new learnings in this hobby keep the interest stirred.

[Noel]

36 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I'm going to pickup a Lokprogrammer in any case. They come up used on eBay here (Germany) regularly enough. I'll snag one of those.

Could one buy a master MM decoder for each type and then copy all the CV settings (I stress NOT the copyright sound file which AFAIK cannot be read back out of a programmed decoded) and then "just" install your own sound file on a blank Loksound, using the saved CV data rather than programming from scratch?

This would not fall foul of any IP rules I believe but correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't need absolutely perfect sound. A good approximation of the engine from a US loco would be good enough for me but I would want all the lighting to work perfectly.

@controller: T-Cut you get in a motor factors. Be careful with it. I've seen videos of it removing the paint before the loco number. Charlie Bishop's Chadwick Model Railway YouTube channel has an episode on renumbering locos.

No you cannot a) legally copy another companies intellectual property, and b) technically its not possible to extract a sound project from a decoder chip using LokProgrammer. Just like with software you need access to the 'source code' not just the binary output (ie the ESU sound project files that made up a project). Some of the US locos are perfect for 141, 181, 121 prime movers, but there's a lot more to it than just prime mover channels. Need, brakes, air lines, horns, acceleration & declaration profiles, flange squeal, and especially light function mapping. The 141/181 had very simple if not somewhat crude lighting setup but 071, 201 and the 121 have comprehensive lighting options.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Noel

[murphaph]

Hi Noel. Yeah as I wrote above I understand that the sound files are the intellectual property of the authors and cannot and should not (even if it were technically possible) copied.

My question was about the CV settings only. 

[Noel]

1 hour ago, controller said:

Thanks all for all the info. Did MM ever bring out a sound decoder for the 141/181 loco?, or just the standard one?. Also I have two 141, both numbered 141. How do I remove the number from one of them, and replace it with another number?.

Controller.

No MM never did their own 141/181 sound project, just the 071, 201 and now the 121. WheelTappersDCCsound and MrSoundguy have excellent sound decoders for most Irish locos.

As to loco renumbering there's loads of YouTube tutorials on this. 

 

[murrayec]

3 hours ago, controller said:

Thanks Murrayec,wise words. I have two 121 locos ordered from Marks, and two MM 121 sound decoders already payed for, so that's that sorted. Can T-Cut, and SSM decals be bought in Marks, or do I need to go online?.

Controller

T-Cut can be got in a motor factors, it's a car product for cut restoring & polishing car paint. SSM can be contacted through their website;- http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Index.shtml

A very small quantity of T-Cut is required, gently rubbed over the decals with the bud, no force is required and after a few minutes the decal will rub off. The T-Cut should be washed off and the paintwork buffed with a clean cloth to take the new decal.

Eoin

[controller]

Hi Noel, I had a look at the YouTube video from Chadwick Model Railway decal removal. He used T-cut, IPA, and Decalfix. The results were disastrous. It removed a hell of a lot of paint from the loco. I was watching another one where the guy used Micro Sol and Micro Set. The results were much better . Have you ever used these products, and what do you think?.

Controller.

[Dhu Varren]

1 hour ago, controller said:

Hi Noel, I had a look at the YouTube video from Chadwick Model Railway decal removal. He used T-cut, IPA, and Decalfix. The results were disastrous. It removed a hell of a lot of paint from the loco. I was watching another one where the guy used Micro Sol and Micro Set. The results were much better . Have you ever used these products, and what do you think?.

Controller.

I watched that video too, very painful to watch. I have tried various methods of removing numbers with varying degrees of success, but my favourite, particularly for Hornby locos is cocktail sticks and enamel thinners. The thinners softens the number, and It can be tedious, but does not damage the paintwork as the tip of the cocktail stick keeps the rubbing localised on the number. You have to keep wetting the number with thinners during the rubbing, as the thinners tends to evaporate. All you should be left with is a shiny patch which is ideal for applying new decals.

[NIRCLASS80]

I have always removed numbers from Murphy Models by just heavy rubbing with a wooden cocktail stick occasionally dipped in some IPA. Start in the centre of the number until you see the print starting to lift. 

[controller]

Thanks for that tip. As you know, the numbers on both ends of the MM 141 are very small, so that may be a good method to remove them. A trip to Woodies is on the cards. A quick question, both locos are CIE black B141(preserved). Were all these class of loco models ( black and white) numbered 141, or did they all have different numbers?. I would hate to change the numbers, just to find out that I should have left them as they are.

Controller.