Bachmann N Class - How to Irish-ize Without Respraying or Weathering?

[DJ Dangerous]

I bought a green Bachmann N Class the other day, just testing how Hattons would work post-BrExit.

Incredibly fast delivery to the Canarias, I have to admit, coming from BrExit Britain.

It arrived today, and I'd like to know how to Irish-ize it without even dreaming of respraying or weathering or any crazy hardcore stuff like that.

Something simple like how to remove the lettering without doing any damage to the paintwork.

What colours did the Irish ones run in?

When did they run until?

What did they haul?

I now have a green one, a black one and a grey one.

Do I need to glue a wheel to the smokebox door or something?

 

 

[Noel]

36 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I bought a green Bachmann N Class the other day, just testing how Hattons would work post-BrExit.

Incredibly fast delivery to the Canarias, I have to admit, coming from BrExit Britain.

It arrived today, and I'd like to know how to Irish-ize it without even dreaming of respraying or weathering or any crazy hardcore stuff like that.

Something simple like how to remove the lettering without doing any damage to the paintwork.

What colours did the Irish ones run in?

When did they run until?

What did they haul?

I now have a green one, a black one and a grey one.

Do I need to glue a wheel to the smokebox door or something?

 

 

Hi Dave

I don't know the answers to many of those questions but it looks like all you might need to do is replace the 'Southern' logo and no on the tender with a flying snail transfer and replace the red number panel on the cab side with a running number. See pic below of one of mine. The shade of green on the loco looks good enough to me. @jhb171achill the oracle on such matters might have good answers to those questions

Noel

[DJ Dangerous]

Wow!

They look very similar alright!

What colour should the snail be?

Upper wing always pointing forward on the tenders?

[WRENNEIRE]

Remove the smoke deflectors, and some kind soul from this parish might be able to donate the cab numbers, the green loco came with 3 different running numbers.

[DJ Dangerous]

3 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Remove the smoke deflectors, and some kind soul from this parish might be able to donate the cab numbers, the green loco came with 3 different running numbers.

Thanks!

I'm sure that JHB is currently in the midst of writing an essay, dripping with information!

[WRENNEIRE]

Afternoon nap I reckon?

 

[DJ Dangerous]

35 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Afternoon nap I reckon?

 

Siesta!

[Galteemore]

Look at this beauty from 1949....

[murrayec]

A dab of T-Cut on a cotton bud, allow the T-cut some time while gently rubbing at the edges of the transfer, it will eventually start to fall apart, remove the loose stuff don't swirl it around and then continue with more T-Cut. Look out as you go to make sure you don't remove the green- if that's paint! The T-Cut will leave a nice shiny finish for the new decals and then spray with a satin lacquer to seal. 

Eau-De-Nill for the snail and possibly the same for the number- or it could have been yellow or white. JHB will know. Snail Decals are available from Railteck or Studio Scale Models.

The locos were black or green- JHB should know the loco numbers and a green reference

Eoin

Edited February 1, 2021 by murrayec

[DJ Dangerous]

10 minutes ago, murrayec said:

A dab of T-Cut on a cotton bud, allow the T-cut some time while gently rubbing at the edges of the transfer, it will eventually start to fall apart, remove the loose stuff don't swirl it around and then continue with more T-Cut. Look out as you go to make sure you don't remove the green- if that's paint! The T-Cut will leave a nice shiny finish for the new decals and then spray with a satin lacquer to seal. 

Eau-De-Nill for the snail and possibly the same for the number- or it could have been yellow or white. JHB will know. Snail Decals are available from Railteck or Studio Scale Models.

The locos were black or green- JHB should know the loco numbers and a green reference

Eoin

Thanks, @murrayec. I'll try the T-Cut at the weekend.

So the grey one that I have is useless for an easy conversion, but the black one will work?

Think that old JHB is still having that afternoon siesta.

[jhb171achill]

OK, essay time, having completed siesta!

Once upon a time.....

That green on the model looks just right, as do the “snail” and number in terms of size and shape etc. The “snail” is indeed the right way round; with extremely few exceptions they were always that way round, with upper bit left, and lower bit right.

One of the few exceptions was the OTHER side of tenders, where the upper but was to the right, i.e. pointing forward; the other such exception was the driver’s side of buses and trucks.

I can’t tell from the photo above whether the logo on the tender is a yellowy or light green colour. It should be light green; it's worth pointing out here that some model K1 class 2.6.0s (the black ones) and an old Lima 0.6.0 were made with yellow or white flying snails; these are ENTIRELY wrong in all instances. The "snail" logos were a transfer, same as used on buses, and were applied to tenders of green, grey or black variety - thus the flying snail should always be light green, as in this case the number also. Numbers were the same light green on GREEN engines, but pale yellow on grey or black engines!

Edited February 1, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

The grey one would work but I suspect yours is SECR grey which is a little light - would really need a dirty wash...see also 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Galteemore

[murrayec]

 

16 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Thanks, @murrayec. I'll try the T-Cut at the weekend.

So the grey one that I have is useless for an easy conversion, but the black one will work?

Think that old JHB is still having that afternoon siesta.

You could have the grey one off to the side with some chaps up ladders n buckets of green paint in hand!!

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

20 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Thanks, @murrayec. I'll try the T-Cut at the weekend.

So the grey one that I have is useless for an easy conversion, but the black one will work?

Think that old JHB is still having that afternoon siesta.

Some were grey; if you want a grey one, unlined - eau-de-nil "snail", and pale yellow cabside number.

Let's see your grey model so we can tell what shade it is......

In Britain, "N" class. Here, they were K1 class!

[jhb171achill]

Livery note re CIE engines:

Three main points:

1.  Bar the trio of 800 class, EVERYTHING grey until late 1945. "Flying snails" started appearing on most tenders (not all) from the late 40s, but by the end of steam in '63, many of the still-grey majority of engines had plain tenders. During the early fifties, cast number plates (grey with pale yellow number) had been replaced by light yellow painted numbers. Snails always light green, not yellow.

2.  From late 1945, but mostly 1946, main line passenger express engines, Dublin suburban tank engines, and but a VERY few other locos were repainted lined green. Most kept this; but given the number of "Woolwiches" noted in grey or black in the fifties, some were possibly repainted from green - though more likely were never painted green at all.

3. Black - After approximately 1955/6 - exact date not known - many of the locos which were lucky enough to see a paintbrush became black, with or without snails and always with painted numbers. A SOLITARY "Woolwich", 388, gained red lining to0, for use on the "Rosslare Express".

The only narrow gauge locos ever painted black appear to be 6T - but only after it went to Ballinamore - and one of the Passage tanks there - I think 12L but I'd need to check.

No tank engines of any sort ever carried a "flying snail", bar one CHALKED on a Tralee engine on the C & L by enthusiasts participating in an enthusiast's tour just before the line closed!

7 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I bought a green Bachmann N Class the other day, just testing how Hattons would work post-BrExit.

Incredibly fast delivery to the Canarias, I have to admit, coming from BrExit Britain.

It arrived today, and I'd like to know how to Irish-ize it without even dreaming of respraying or weathering or any crazy hardcore stuff like that.

Something simple like how to remove the lettering without doing any damage to the paintwork.

What colours did the Irish ones run in?

When did they run until?

What did they haul?

I now have a green one, a black one and a grey one.

Do I need to glue a wheel to the smokebox door or something?

 

 

This green isn't anything like anything CIE used, unfortunately.....!

However - in traffic these engines were DISGRACEFULLY dirty all the time, for some reason - certainly never getting the TLC that the 800 class got.

Thus, if you were to SERIOUSLY weather the thing - as prototypically - it might look passable! It's your railway, of course, so your rules. But strictly technically, it's the wrong colour.

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

What colours did the Irish ones run in?

When did they run until?

What did they haul?

1.   All grey until 1945/6, then most lined green. Some remained grey till their demise mid-50s. One lasted to 1960 and that was the end - it was black, as several others were after 1956.

2.  Last in 1960. 

3.  The good news is - everything.

These engines were ordered by the MGWR initially, though later ones were really GSR locos, not MGWR. The history of the class is complex and well covered in McMahon & Clements "Big Green Bible".

They were originally intended for the Galway and Sligo mail trains, and did run on these and other trains on these lines. I saw some pics recently (very poor ones in a private collection!) of one approaching Sligo in the 1940s with a goods train, though one would have expected them to more often be on passenger trains.

Before they were even all delivered, it seems that Cork and Waterford sheds had taken a liking to them, as they spent much of their lives bumbling up and down the main line to Dublin on all sorts of traffic - goods and passenger. They also displaced earlier engines on the scenic Mallow - Waterford line, en route with the "Rosslare Express" between Cork and Rosslare. Again, they could be found on goods trains on this line too, and regularly. No. 388 was specially repainted in its own unique black livery in 1956 for the Rosslare Express; this would be short-lived, with B101 class diesels taking this over very shortly.

The stopping passenger train over the Cork - Rosslare route was also "Woolwich" haulage before diesels took over.

They could also be seen regularly on beet between Waterford and Limerick Junction, and from there to Thurles. I'm sure I've come across some record of one on a ballast somewhere, but I don't remember the details.

This is not exhaustive; the late Billy Lohan regularly had one on the up Galway Day Mail in the late 1940s / early 50s before the AEC sets took over. He reported them as being excellent engines - and Billy didn't dish out such compliments unless well deserved! Given that this is a family forum, I will refrain from quoting him on a number of ex-MGWR types, though other drivers were happy enough with these beasts!

They never went north (GNR area), and I have no record of them appearing on the DSER.

With a grey, green and black one, you're well set up for a 1956-60 period. Mind you, all still then in traffic were so filthy that they could have been bright purple, lime green, day-glo fluorescent pink and tartan underneath, for all anyone could see!

So what type of carriages? ANYTHING then in use. Six-wheelers, wooden bogies (given their operational area, almost entirely of ex-GSW types), Bredins, Laminates, 1952/3 CIE stock, and Park Royals at the end, and in later years tin vans were inevitably present too.

No Cravens, obviously, as the first of these entered service almost three years after the last "Woolwich" was withdrawn.

That's all i have on that for the moment; hope its helpful. Now; me drinking choc beckons. No pints these days......

 

[DJ Dangerous]

So the last K1's ran in 1960, both in green and in black, and the last grey K1's ran in the mid fifties?

The UK SR green is a more urine or olive shade of green, so would have to be weathered, I'm sure...

But I'm probably thirty years away from retirement so we'll put a pin in that for the next 11,000 days or so.

I'd want to be running the latest incarnations possible, and would probably stretch the limits of reality in order to run them alongside some grey 121's.

But in reality, from an RTR perspective, they'd only have run alongside A Classes in 1960?

The 1960 K1's would have hauled silver tin vans with green passenger stock?

[Westcorkrailway]

48 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I'd want to be running the latest incarnations possible, and would probably stretch the limits of reality in order to run them alongside some grey 121's.

But in reality, from an RTR perspective, they'd only have run alongside A Classes in 1960?

If you want Really wanted to, you could get some silverfox irish stuff like sulzers, C class, railcar sets ect. Granted they arent the best in terms of detail but they are RTR (kind of)

[jhb171achill]

57 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So the last K1's ran in 1960, both in green and in black, and the last grey K1's ran in the mid fifties?

The UK SR green is a more urine or olive shade of green, so would have to be weathered, I'm sure...

But I'm probably thirty years away from retirement so we'll put a pin in that for the next 11,000 days or so.

I'd want to be running the latest incarnations possible, and would probably stretch the limits of reality in order to run them alongside some grey 121's.

But in reality, from an RTR perspective, they'd only have run alongside A Classes in 1960?

The 1960 K1's would have hauled silver tin vans with green passenger stock?

Yes, exactly. They would have operated alongside the A, C and B101.

All green stock, or silver. Blackntan appeared almost two years after the last K1 was scrapped.

[Westcorkrailway]

 

2 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

But I'm probably thirty years away from retirement so we'll put a pin in that for the next 11,000 days or so.

You will just have to spend some of your 11,000 hours waiting for silver fox stuff to arive. I have to wait 12 months for my railcar sets. Its understandable as they are build by order. And 3 months for C212....but then again you have to have patience in irish railway modeling....were lucky to have a manufacturer that can provide late 50s early 60s RTR stuff (as of right now we only have grazed upon this era with 121s and yet to release A class from our big 2 manufacturers ommiting the k1)

Edited February 2, 2021 by Westcorkrailway

[jhb171achill]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:55 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

 

On 2/2/2021 at 2:55 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

......were lucky to have a manufacturer that can provide late 50s early 60s RTR stuff (as of right now we only have grazed upon this era with 121s and yet to release A class from our big 2 manufacturers ommiting the k1)

And it’s great to see interest in this fascinating era increasing!

Edited February 6, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Mike 84C]

Here's a couple of snap's of my K1. It also started out as a BR version. I had forgotten how long ago I had done the conversion   .

[Niles]

There's a photo in Ernie Sheperd's book on the Midland Great Western of the first one in MGWR livery (complete with MGWR number) - it's a works photo so probably never left Broadstone like that with the GSR takeover.

[DJ Dangerous]

11 minutes ago, Niles said:

There's a photo in Ernie Sheperd's book on the Midland Great Western of the first one in MGWR livery (complete with MGWR number) - it's a works photo so probably never left Broadstone like that with the GSR takeover.

Cue @jhb171achill to confirm or debunk that!

[GSR 800]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:44 PM, jhb171achill said:

1.   All grey until 1945/6, then most lined green. Some remained grey till their demise mid-50s. One lasted to 1960 and that was the end - it was black, as several others were after 1956.

2.  Last in 1960. 

3.  The good news is - everything.

These engines were ordered by the MGWR initially, though later ones were really GSR locos, not MGWR. The history of the class is complex and well covered in McMahon & Clements "Big Green Bible".

They were originally intended for the Galway and Sligo mail trains, and did run on these and other trains on these lines. I saw some pics recently (very poor ones in a private collection!) of one approaching Sligo in the 1940s with a goods train, though one would have expected them to more often be on passenger trains.

This is not exhaustive; the late Billy Lohan regularly had one on the up Galway Day Mail in the late 1940s / early 50s before the AEC sets took over. He reported them as being excellent engines - and Billy didn't dish out such compliments unless well deserved! Given that this is a family forum, I will refrain from quoting him on a number of ex-MGWR types, though other drivers were happy enough with these beasts!

 

Good pic here of 396 hauling a rather pathetic looking train through Mullingar to Dublin! Judging by the state of the middle wagon, perhaps being sent to be repaired?

 

For some ex MGWR types, it seemed working at all was almost a novelty, though the rubbish coal likely didn't help

On 1/2/2021 at 3:10 PM, DJ Dangerous said:

I bought a green Bachmann N Class the other day, just testing how Hattons would work post-BrExit.

Do I need to glue a wheel to the smokebox door or something?

Since most regarding liveries has been covered, cosmetically yes addition of smokebox wheel certainly adds to the loco, but if going there perhaps raising the handrail on the smokebox door a few mill would be in order too. 

IIRC many had ladders on the back of the tender side, many ended up with their numbers on the top of the smokebox door too, as 396 demonstrates.

[StevieB]

Am I correct in thinking that the K1a was the Irish version of the Maunsell U class, with the boiler raised a few inches to take account of the increased size of the driving wheels?

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, StevieB said:

Am I correct in thinking that the K1a was the Irish version of the Maunsell U class, with the boiler raised a few inches to take account of the increased size of the driving wheels?

Stephen

Yes, it could certainly be described as such!

[jhb171achill]

14 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Cue @jhb171achill to confirm or debunk that!

 

14 hours ago, Niles said:

There's a photo in Ernie Sheperd's book on the Midland Great Western of the first one in MGWR livery (complete with MGWR number) - it's a works photo so probably never left Broadstone like that with the GSR takeover.

Yes, that is correct. It was never even steamed like that!

The first loco was completed just as the MGWR was ceasing its existence and becoming but one part (albeit a major one) of the GSR.

Locomotives of GSWR extraction were already being repainted plain grey (since 1915-18) and as a final act of "independence", the first "Woolwich" was finished in full MGWR livery. Since 1918, the MGWR had abandoned the time-honoured green, and any loco repainted after that was in their new black livery, with red lining. So, complete with next number in MGWR series, it was painted up, wheeled outside into daylight, photographed, and immediately brought back in again for repaint into plain grey, and renumbering with the now-correct GSR number and cast numberplate. Thus, it never turned a wheel in MGWR livery, never mind haul a train, and all of its sisters entered traffic in GSR times as GSR engines, in GSR grey from the outset.

Two historical echoes would follow some years later.

In the late 1950s, 388 was repainted black, with red lining - one of the Bachmann models was in this guise - for the Cork - Rosslare services. While very short-lived, possibly no more than 18 months, as the diesels were coming along pretty soon, it looked very well, if contemporary pics are anything to go by. But, while this repaint is often described as being similar to the old GSWR livery, while that is true, it's actually a great deal MORE like the final MGWR livery! So if anyone ever wanted to model the first of the class in MGWR livery, and use Rule 1 ("It's YOUR layout"!) to justify running it as such, all you need to do is remove the CIE cabside number and replace it with the MGWR one, and remove the "flying snail" from the tender and replace with "M G W R"!

Reminiscent of Broadstone's closing MGWR livery echo, in Dundalk Works, the same thing happened a couple of years AFTER the GNR had ceased to be, and all locos in it were owned by CIE. The very last ex-GN 4.4.0 ("S" 174) was outshopped in full lined GNR blue, complete with "G N" and crest on the tender. Between the end of the GNR in 1958 and the closure of Dundalk to steam engine maintenance, the few repaints had involved the lined blue livery, but with no markings at all on the tender, and "CIE" stencilled on the buffer beams.

So, hopefully soon, an ICR will appear in fully lined CIE 1950s green..........

[DJ Dangerous]

24 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

So, hopefully soon, an ICR will appear in fully lined CIE 1950s green..........

How about a 29000 in black with red lining?

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

How about a 29000 in black with red lining?

And an 071 in GSR grey - oh, we've pretty much GOT that!

[Niles]

If we're applying Rule 1, I might repaint a Woolwich in 'might have been' MGWR tourist train livery (had they arrived a few decades earlier) - any excuse for a bitta blue & yella stripe.