Mol_PMB

I think the 5th carriage in this train is a former Pullman, hauled by 801 in 1955: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508723481/ Dimensions of the Irish Pullmans were as follows: Length over body 63'10", over buffers 67' Bogie centres 43'4" Bogie wheelbase 10' Body width 8'11" Height to top of roof 12'9.5" I don't know much about the UK Pullmans except that there was a huge variety of them. Probably none identical to the Irish ones but some might have similar dimensions and style? Some Irish Pullman photo links: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507626132/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252982311/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511625293/

I now have my references in front of me so I'll just summarise what the kits represent. In 1935 the GSR built a series of gangwayed main-line coaches, with a 60'0" length over the body, and 9'0" width over the body. The upper body sides were vertical with a gentle curve below the waist to a width of 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body. This group included the following coaches which I think are those represented by the SSM kits Edit: the SSM kits represent the luggage van from this series, but the third and composite from the 1937 batch (see below): 8 corridor thirds 1323-1330 2 corridor composites 2114-2115 1 brake/luggage 2548 1 corridor first 1144 In 1949-1951, composite 2115 was reclassified as a first. 1327 was preserved but I don't think it now exists. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053 Here's composite 2114 in CIE livery in the 1950s: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343 They lasted in passenger service until the early 1970s. For example, 2115 was converted to brake/luggage van 2559 in 1971 and survived another decade or so, while 1335 was withdrawn in 1973. The GSR built a second series of gangwayed main-line coaches in 1937. These were also 60'0" length over the body, but the body profile was different. They retained the 9'0" width at cantrail height and 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body, but the width at the waist was increased to 9'6". This meant that the upper sides were noticeably inclined with a more significant curve on the lower sides. 4 corridor thirds 1335-1338 4 corridor composites 2120-2123 Apart from the body profile, these carriages were virtually identical to the 1935 batch. Edit: It should therefore be possible to modify the SSM kit to represent the earlier ones by reshaping the end profiles. Here's third 1338: And one of the composites here (in the background): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508777481 2120/1 were converted to brake/luggage vans 2560/1 in 1971 and survived another decade or so; the others were withdrawn in the early 1970s. 1335 was preserved and still exists: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508127442/ The first carriages built by CIE in 1951 were a batch of 6 composites numbered 2124-2129. These were closely based on their GSR predecessors, but had a welded truss underframe. The body profile reverted to having vertical upper sides, but now at 9'6" width. The window styling was also different, with raised aluminium frames. A possible kitbash from the SSM model, but these would be more work. There's a nice photo of one of these on page 43 of the book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages'. After that, CIE adopted a 61'6" length and this also influenced the layout of the coaches, for example the composites had 4 first and 3 third compartments, rather than the 3 first and 4 third on the shorter 60'0" underframe.

Ah yes, here we are: https://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredin3rd.shtml https://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredincomp.shtml They look good!

Do you know the type or number series of the Bredin kits? I haven’t got my books in front of me but I recall there were 3 batches with different characteristics. I think the first and third batches were gangwayed but had different cross-sections, while the middle batch were (originally) non-gangwayed suburban stock.

I'll be at the Waldorf tonight for this month's IRRS Manchester talk: Ken Grainger presents “Rhapsody in Blue”. As the name suggests the talk is all about the GNRI, more importantly the famous blue engines of that railway concern, along with other forms of blue liveried stock, road transport also gets a look in. Ken will use slides, all his own and all in glorious Colour, if you were lucky enough to witness Ken's previous talk to the branch in March 2024 on the CDRJC, then this talk, like that on the County Donegal Railway, is one “Not to be Missed”. Might see some of you there; hopefully the GNR enthusiasts on the forum will be able to join online if not in person. And IRM might get some inspiration for their next steam loco?

I've had the Hunslet email, but the points from items bought on IRM haven't yet transferred over. I appreciate this is all taking some time to sort out. Perhaps IRM could post on here when they think it's all done, and we can then each check our AS accounts are correct?

Well there's a Bury 2-2-2 to consider, and the Atmospheric? Modelling the D&KR might would reduce the track gauge controversy. That's an advantage of the Lartigue too...

I was mulling over the weight issue too. Although these days getting 3000hp in a 120t diesel loco is commonplace, back in the 1940s even half that power was pushing the boundaries of the technology. For example the LMS twins 10000/1 were 1750hp and 127t each, and were intended to be used as a pair on the heaviest expresses. The same engine block was developed, in stages over 20 years, into a 3000hp unit. The Deltics of 1961 provided 3300hp in a 100t loco, which was world-beating performance at the time. But they used a complex and novel engine design design that proved unreliable in a rail traction application, and that engine was only a sketch on the drawing board in the 1940s. In sketching a 'might-have-been', I wonder whether they would have chosen a load-bearing chassis or a monocoque design with much of the strength in the bodyshell. The latter should have been lighter but more complex to design and providing less easy access for maintenance.

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me: http://www.studio-scale-models.com For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work... http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml ... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique). Was there a wider range available in the past?

That's pretty much what I suggested on RMweb!

Narrow gauge RTR is now growing quite rapidly in both 009 and what Bachmann are calling NG7 (formerly O-16.5), but is focusing on prototypes around 2' gauge, mostly Welsh. With the growth of TT120, the route to 00n3 is perhaps becoming a bit easier but I imagine it will be some years/decades before it catches up with 009. American 3' gauge modelling is well established but of course that's in HO or 1/4" scale.

It's interesting that on the RMweb side of the water, several people have asked what carriages they can buy to go with their 800. I have made some suggestions but this seems to be a gap that IRM should consider, even if it's a partnership with another manufacturer (like the Esso tanks) to provide some GB coaches in GSR livery?

I have also found a couple of photos of these GSWR corridor coaches in use as intermediates in AEC Railcar sets, which increases their potential usefulness even more. For example, in 'Railways in Ireland' part 3 (Bairstow), page 7 shows a 3-car AEC railcar set with a GSWR corridor as the intermediate, at Wicklow Murrough in 1957. The same book, page 26 shows a Rosslare-Dublin train at Enniscorthy in 1959, formed of Bulleid railcar 2664, a GSWR corridor, an AEC railcar and a tin van tacked on the back. I've been looking at the detail of the panelling and beading which is actually quite complex with multiple layers. I'm considering a way to do this as an etch with an overlay for the upper half, but a 3D printed solution might be better? Or maybe a combination - print the main bodyshell and add an etched overlay to the upper half? With oversized window openings in the 3D print, the glazing could be placed against the etch layer. This photo of Ernie's shows the layers quite well:

I am aware what type it is - I took the photo and travelled on railtour behind it. However, I disagree that it is irrelevant to the discussion of CIE's early diesel traction and @Mayner's original question about the Sulzers and CIE's early diesel plans. CIE 1100/1101 and the proposed six large twin-engined locos used Sulzer engines; in the mid-1930s their LDA series was one of the first European designs to evolve into something specifically designed for rail traction. The Swiss Bm4/4ii locos of 1939 were one of these early applications of Sulzer engines to rail traction. When CIE and their potential suppliers were investigating options in the early 1940s, they would have been a key reference. In J.J. Leckey's article on CIE's First Diesel Programme these Swiss locos get a specific mention, not just for the Sulzer engine but also their Brown-Boveri electrical equipment. Alongside 1100 and 1101, in 1945 CIE decided to order a 4-car diesel electric passenger train and this was intended to use the same Brown-Boveri electrical equipment as in these Swiss locos. The plan for the 4-car diesel unit was cancelled, but it does demonstrate their relevance to the early designs for Ireland. It's true that Bulleid had a strong preference for EMD designs for good reasons, and EMD initially proposed a 'type EX' 600hp A1A-A1A with styling similar to their 'BL2' for the US market.

That's a wonderful mental image! With the demise of Markits and the long delays at Ultrascale, I wonder whether this type of wheel be suitable for the 21mm gauge conversion?

This may also be useful: CIE 101 class, 1100, 1101, sulzer in eire This was an early Sulzer diesel loco from 1939, which has some family resemblance (curved cab front, 3 windows) to the Sulzer-engined locos built by BRCW for British Railways (e.g. Class 33) but nothing much in common with the Irish Sulzers (even though the B101s were also built by BRCW) so trying to infer a styling or appearance from contemporaries may be a flawed approach.

IRRS Journal Vol.14 No. 86, October 1981, contains two articles of relevance. 'Sulzer locomotives of CIE' by D Renehan and 'CIE's first diesel programme' by J J Leckey. No diagrams or artists impressions but some useful background. The book on CC1 has a few paragraphs (page 25). There seems to be rather more information published on the GNR's planned diesel fleet than CIE's early plans.

That's very interesting, because I had been puzzling over the arrangement of that second coach in Ernie's photo. This is a similar vehicle, quite possibly the same one: Also interesting to note that the one at Downpatrick has had a bogie swap and lost its footboards, changing the appearance somewhat. I think there were a variety of layouts for this 'family' of GSWR corridor carriages, although I'm fairly sure that the thirds were the most numerous. However, as yet I haven't found a list of types or numbers, nor any diagrams or drawings. I have an IRRS journal with a good article on GSR carriages, which mentions the thirds that were being built in the GSWR/GSR transition period. I don't have an equivalent article on GSWR carriages although I suspect there is something on that topic in the IRRS archives. The book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages', whilst useful, has a scope too broad to go into much detail on individual types. Based on photos... The full thirds were 1290 to 1322; plenty of photo links for these above; here's Ernie's photo of the corridor side of 1312: The RPSI has a full first 1142, the compartment side seen here: There was also a group of composites with two first class compartments in the middle, which included 2091 and 2094: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172215 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509299340 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165801 However, this appears to be a different sort of composite: This full brake 2544 may also be from the same family of vehicles: I'm not sure if there were brake thirds (or similar) of this family of corridor coaches - quite possibly. Introduced in the 1910s/20s, some lasted into the 1970s - a good 50-year life. They would have carried liveries of the GSWR and GSR, through two shades of CIE green, with the later survivors ending their lives in black and tan. So they might have a fairly wide appeal as a model. In the CIE era these GSWR corridor coaches could turn up in almost any sort of train - long distance, suburban or branch passenger/mixed trains. Hang them behind your 800, A class, C class, G class, J15, whatever!

I will be in Ireland in a few weeks time so there may still be an option there.

I’m keen - can you post to UK though? cheers, Mol

Thanks, that's very useful info! Here's a very nice photo of a timber train at Fenit. I'm saving my money for a C class (or three). I'm working on compiling a list of the various different freight traffics on the pier, and how they were carried. Also photo links where possible. Certainly open wagons with coal or timber, sometimes more sensitive cargo sheeted with tarps as you say - grain was another imported cargo which features in the Kennelly archive, in sacks and being loaded onto road transport but it could have easily gone by rail instead. A lot of photos show vans too: Fish was a major traffic in some years, I think I can justify a few vac-braked H vans to be loaded with fish and attached to the night mail from Tralee. Latterly the main export was Liebherr cranes, and that's still the case - there's a ship at Fenit right now loading crane parts. Photos suggest that those mostly came by road to Fenit even while the railway was still in use, but I am going to apply Rule 1. In 'Rails Around Dublin' (Donal Murray) page 70 there's a super photo of a train of Liebherr crane components at North Wall - the girders mounted on 25436 series flat wagons, overhanging the ends, and spaced apart by Bulleid 4-wheel flats used as runners. The date is about 1970. I have the ingredients for this in model form. I have also been looking at the types of ships which served Fenit and wondering whether my layout design should be increased in width to include a vessel...

And it's a proper 'Rule 1' collection - a whole host of different gauges, eras and regions of Ireland. Though if I had to pick a bit of the collection to model it might be the DeLorean overtaking the Bessbrook & Newry tramcar... (Are they still near each other and separate from the main railway hall? It's been a long time since I visited)

Not far off - for comparison this is a former GSR carriage which was preserved by the RPSI in GSR livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

At least one 6-wheeler in each of these: JMR_GSR_802_Kingsbridge_l1940s | [Photographer: John Macartn… | Flickr RNC_GSR_802_Limerick_Jct_22_May_1949 | [Photographer: Robin … | Flickr GNR set in Cork: DLGH_GSR_802_Glanmire_Rd_21_June_1951 | [Photographer: David… | Flickr Pullman in this set? RNC_GSR_801_Hazelhatch_4_May_1955 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr Typical mix of panelled and flush bogie stock: JoM_GSR_800_Straffan_m1950s (2) | [Photographer: John O'Mear… | Flickr "I'm Spartacus 800!" KAM_GSR_GNR_800_801_Inchicore_08_July_1963 | [Photographer: … | Flickr

Perhaps IRM need to add one of these to the product range - perfect for the Queens, and remained in use until about 1970. Four liveries to offer... GSWR Corridor Third - Irish Models - Irish Railway Modeller