Limerick to Foynes railway reopening plan

[jhb171achill]

On 18/1/2023 at 3:57 PM, Branchline121 said:

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2023/01/18/is-the-navan-rail-line-dream-back-on-track-cabinet-expected-to-sign-off-on-2031-start-date-for-e750m-project/
Called it!

2042???? Are they seriously having a laugh? Any other country would have built 200km of track between now and then. Well, any that the (UK) Conservatives weren't involved with, anyway - or Fine Gael Fail.

TWENTY YEARS to deliver a few miles of track largely along an existing alignment!!!

[Horsetan]

42 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

2042???? Are they seriously having a laugh? Any other country would have built 200km of track between now and then. Well, any that the (UK) Conservatives weren't involved with, anyway - or Fine Gael Fail.

TWENTY YEARS to deliver a few miles of track largely along an existing alignment!!!

That's probably to allow enough room for future governments to kick the can even further down the road.

[jhb171achill]

25 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

That's probably to allow enough room for future governments to kick the can even further down the road.

....and theirein lies the problem. Modern governments have every incentive to think short-term, and no incentive to think long-term; and even that's assuming that the gobdaws and gombeen men we elect are even capable of rational, intelligent thought.

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

........the gobdaws and gombeen men we elect ....

In many ways, they reflect much of the electorate. Maybe if there were immigrant parties, that might set the cat amongst the electoral pigeons...

[jhb171achill]

50 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

In many ways, they reflect much of the electorate. Maybe if there were immigrant parties, that might set the cat amongst the electoral pigeons...

NOW ye're talking!

[Noel]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

NOW ye're talking!

. . . And let more people from cork migrate into the republic from the PDRC? I think not   it’s already a pain having one’s passport inspected at Mallow on the train. 

[DoctorPan]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

2042???? Are they seriously having a laugh? Any other country would have built 200km of track between now and then. Well, any that the (UK) Conservatives weren't involved with, anyway - or Fine Gael Fail.

TWENTY YEARS to deliver a few miles of track largely along an existing alignment!!!

It's not just the alignment that's the delay, its waiting for DART West to be completed as currently there isn't capacity along the corridor to serve Navan.

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, Noel said:

. . . And let more people from cork migrate into the republic from the PDRC? I think not   it’s already a pain having one’s passport inspected at Mallow on the train. 

You can do pre-immigration checks quite conveniently online at Www.Murphys.ie

2 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

It's not just the alignment that's the delay, its waiting for DART West to be completed as currently there isn't capacity along the corridor to serve Navan.

True 

[DoctorPan]

Another thing that's limiting these projects is the staff.  Engineers with rail experience is extremely limited and we're all in high demand with all the various projects going on in the county. Light rail we have Luas Finglas and Metrolink, then heavy rail projects currently ongoing atm is the whole package of Cork Commuter, (loads of new stations, doubling of track, introduction of BEMUs and electricition of the corridor, new depot), the freight stratergy including the new freight terminals, including the announced one in Castlebar), the 4 DART + projects plus new DART fleet, Wicklow DART feasability studies, Northern Line Quad Tracking study, Limerick Double Tracking, Ennis Line Capacity Improvements, Ornamore loop, Ceannt remodelling, new station studies at Moyross, Ballysimon, Cabra and Kylemore and the new Woodbrook station construction. Huge massively complex projects all on the go and everywhere is at capacity, between consultants, Irish Rail, NTA, TII, CRR and ABP. That's before we even look at other projects that some groups have underway that are taking up resourses as well, the various Bus Connects projects within the NTA and APB.

 

And thats before we even look at construction capacity. There's massive massive stuff in the pipeline that the general public aren't fully aware of that's being processed in the background.

[226 Abhann na Suire]

Something I want to know, and it is a slight side note from the above, but why can’t they throw in a few stations along the Foynes route, Foynes itself, maybe Askeaton, but most especially, and at the very least Adare?? It’s no mystery to this government how much of a congested, busy and growing town Adare is and even with the Ryder Cup coming in 2027 as well, surely it makes tones of sense to slap down a Craughwell/Ardrahan/Sixmilebridge job of a single concrete platform with a few lamps and shelters?? What on Earth is stopping them, the big palaver of relaying and reinstalling the line is the biggest job and that’s being done anyway so there is quite literally nothing to lose by running a 2800 down to Adare twice in the morning and evening peak…? 
 

7 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

Light rail we have … Metrolink …

I also think Metrolink as It’s being proposed, is a load of absolute bull**** and this country is better off without it in its current state. Only linking up with the National Network at Drumcondra and Tara Street??? Seriously??? So anybody coming into the country wanting to go anywhere but Dublin (an awful lot of people by the way) has to change trains 2/3 times at least?? DART Underground between Heuston and the Docklands (with an underground station at Connolly too - a direct Heuston to Connolly link is a must in any DART Underground/Metro plan I think) before joining a quad-tracked Northern line to Clongriffin and then going underground to reach the airport and possibly Swords, seems like a much more attractive and, honestly easier project with far more long term benefits for the network - direct trains from anywhere to the airport being possibly with maximum a single cross platform change required. The lack of joined up thinking in this country of ours, as much as I love it, is astonishing sometimes…

[DoctorPan]

Mainly Foynes is being driven by Foynes Port wanting a connection for freight. I believe there's discussions for passenger services internally with regards Ryder Cup but the stumbling block is the reversal at Limerick Check.

 

Regarding Metrolink, you're looking at the project the wrong way and from a heavy rail bias. Metrolink interconnects with major transport arteries in Glasnevin and Tara Street, with the DART, city buses and connections to the intercity network.  Connolly is utterly fucked and the only way to upgrade it is to take away services from it. The Loop Line is a massive bottleneck and not one with an easy solution. Direct connections is a Irish mindset and a plague upon our transport network design. Frequency frequency frequency and ease of transfers is king. Metrolinks main purpose is to provide Swords with a public transport corridor with a consistent travel time and high frequency. Serving the airport is just a bonus side effect.

 

Integrated ticketing with Leap card and high frequency and ease of transfer provides a far better service and far far better future capacity then trying to give everywhere a direct connection to everywhere. Its what has plagued the bus networks and somewhat plagued the Connolly side of the network. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

Something I want to know, and it is a slight side note from the above, but why can’t they throw in a few stations along the Foynes route, Foynes itself, maybe Askeaton, but most especially, and at the very least Adare?? It’s no mystery to this government how much of a congested, busy and growing town Adare is and even with the Ryder Cup coming in 2027 as well, surely it makes tones of sense to slap down a Craughwell/Ardrahan/Sixmilebridge job of a single concrete platform with a few lamps and shelters?

Very true. Adare at the very least. Mind you, as a regular traveller on the Killarney to Limerick road, I can see the same congestion as far back as Newcastle West. Arguably a case for reinstating it back there too.

13 minutes ago, DoctorPan said:

Mainly Foynes is being driven by Foynes Port wanting a connection for freight. I believe there's discussions for passenger services internally with regards Ryder Cup but the stumbling block is the reversal at Limerick Check.

I can well see that being an excuse; but they manage it at Killarney without any difficulty..... so there IS precedent.

[DoctorPan]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Very true. Adare at the very least. Mind you, as a regular traveller on the Killarney to Limerick road, I can see the same congestion as far back as Newcastle West. Arguably a case for reinstating it back there too.

I can well see that being an excuse; but they manage it at Killarney without any difficulty..... so there IS precedent.

Apples and Oranges. Kilarney is a reversal mid line on a not highly trafficed line. Colbert and Check are a highly busy line and capacity in Colbert is rapidly filling up with other projects in the area. 

[Mayner]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:29 AM, jhb171achill said:

....and theirein lies the problem. Modern governments have every incentive to think short-term, and no incentive to think long-term; and even that's assuming that the gobdaws and gombeen men we elect are even capable of rational, intelligent thought.

The question is whether the Irish public are prepared to pay higher taxes (including residential rates) for improved public transport (including rail). Rate payer in Auckland  (similar population to Dublin)are not exactly happy about about paying a 4% increase in their residential rates from 2026 onwards to cover annual operating losses on the new City Centre Rail Link.

We recently had an election in New Zealand where a centre-right coalition was elected on a platform of tax cuts and major road schemes, and a centre-left government heavily committed to major investment in public transport projects including Heavy and Light Rail soundly defeated. 

On the plus side they have pledged not to increase the qualifying age for Superannuation (old age pension) above 65 unlike the UK and Ireland, so I am not too bothered.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Mayner said:

The question is whether the Irish public are prepared to pay higher taxes (including residential rates) for improved public transport 

Indeed; with the rise of mid-right-wing, never mind wacko hard right in many countries, I think the age of decent properly funded public transport may be entering its last days, unfortunately - along with all manner of other public services.

That would lead to an American-style model for society in general; the first significant step backwards in overall society in the history of mankind.

But a big debate for another forum, another day.

Regarding Irish public transport, expect to see cans kicked further and further down longer roads.

[Horsetan]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:30 AM, jhb171achill said:

NOW ye're talking!

If Ireland had migrant-only parties such as

- Hizb-ut-TahrEire

- Hezbollix

- Brasileiroo

- NigeriEir Advance Party

those would go some way to breaking the cosy hegemony. Until then, there's only SF.

[226 Abhann na Suire]

20 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

Regarding Metrolink, you're looking at the project the wrong way and from a heavy rail bias. Metrolink interconnects with major transport arteries in Glasnevin and Tara Street, with the DART, city buses and connections to the intercity network.  Connolly is utterly fucked and the only way to upgrade it is to take away services from it. The Loop Line is a massive bottleneck and not one with an easy solution. Direct connections is a Irish mindset and a plague upon our transport network design. Frequency frequency frequency and ease of transfers is king. Metrolinks main purpose is to provide Swords with a public transport corridor with a consistent travel time and high frequency. Serving the airport is just a bonus side effect.

@DoctorPan I never looked at it from that angle before at all somehow, I actually never thought about that. Having read that, I went to look at the route map and website of Metrolink and I don’t know how I completely didn’t realise that as you say, serving the airport is only a bonus side effect, and it actually provides hugely populated areas of North Dublin with otherwise limited transport connections, with a frequent and integrative service to the city centre. I apologise about going on the tirade, and thank you for pointing that out!!

 

I do still think that Dublin Airport could benefit from a heavy rail link and there are certain aspects of Metrolink’s route that could be slightly altered to improve connectivity. Specifically the O’Connell Street stop which is currently located linking with the Luas Green Line’s O’Connell Upper stop (thus connecting with only one direction of only one Luas line…). This could be moved slightly southwards to around the intersection of Abbey and O’Connell Street, thus connecting with Red Line and both directions of the Green Line by way of having numerous exits from the underground station. DART Underground (or DART + Tunnel as the big wigs are calling it) can also only be seen as complimenting Metrolink with a potential connection at O’Connell Street being amazing but the planned Stephen’s Green or Tara links also being very viable.

 

I also couldn’t agree more about taking services away from Connolly, it is very congested and aside from the Northern Line, has little scope for track capacity enhancements and not much space for additional platforms either. I think the Strategic Rail Review’s idea of the Maynooth-Lucan rail link would be fantastic if implemented as it will allow Sligo (and potential future Monaghan and Cavan services from Mullingar which are also recommended in the review) to terminate at Heuston, where there is loads of space for capacity enhancement and extra platforms (unlike poor Connolly) and which will be reached by full quad-track thanks to DART + SW (also unlike poor Connolly). 

 

They also recommended Rosslare line services terminate at Bray, with passengers wanting to journey on to Dublin making a very easy cross-platform interchange for an increased-frequency DART service to Dublin. While this may seem bad, it allows for more frequent services from Rosslare and Wexford to Bray and there would be no actual increase in journey time at all by having to change train, as Rosslare trains are stuck behind DARTs all the way from Bray and so take the same time as them to reach Connolly anyway. This would allow Connolly to be a completely commuter/DART only station (aside from the Enterprise), with 5 platforms (3 through and 2 bays) for DARTs to serve Maynooth, Drogheda, Hazelhatch/Kildare, Bray and maybe the airport being very sufficient and 2 platforms for the hourly Enterprise. 

 

I apologise to everyone for that Shpeel, I’m not great at getting my point across quickly at all, so sorry about that and thanks again @DoctorPan for opening my eyes to being pro-Metrolink again! Now, back to the Foynes line!!…

9 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

Apples and Oranges. Kilarney is a reversal mid line on a not highly trafficed line. Colbert and Check are a highly busy line and capacity in Colbert is rapidly filling up with other projects in the area. 

I could be missing something, but a solution potentially…?

[DoctorPan]

Possibly, depends on your curvature. At a quick glance, you got be knocking part of the canopy to get your new platform in. Might be more feasabile in a few years when the bus station moves. Proves that scequencing of projects is important because a project can become viable if another project is completed!

[Andy Cundick]

To put it in context the Seattle and Carlisle was built in 5 years progress?

[StevieB]

On 7/12/2023 at 5:38 PM, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

@DoctorPan I never looked at it from that angle before at all somehow, I actually never thought about that. Having read that, I went to look at the route map and website of Metrolink and I don’t know how I completely didn’t realise that as you say, serving the airport is only a bonus side effect, and it actually provides hugely populated areas of North Dublin with otherwise limited transport connections, with a frequent and integrative service to the city centre. I apologise about going on the tirade, and thank you for pointing that out!!

 

I do still think that Dublin Airport could benefit from a heavy rail link and there are certain aspects of Metrolink’s route that could be slightly altered to improve connectivity. Specifically the O’Connell Street stop which is currently located linking with the Luas Green Line’s O’Connell Upper stop (thus connecting with only one direction of only one Luas line…). This could be moved slightly southwards to around the intersection of Abbey and O’Connell Street, thus connecting with Red Line and both directions of the Green Line by way of having numerous exits from the underground station. DART Underground (or DART + Tunnel as the big wigs are calling it) can also only be seen as complimenting Metrolink with a potential connection at O’Connell Street being amazing but the planned Stephen’s Green or Tara links also being very viable.

 

I also couldn’t agree more about taking services away from Connolly, it is very congested and aside from the Northern Line, has little scope for track capacity enhancements and not much space for additional platforms either. I think the Strategic Rail Review’s idea of the Maynooth-Lucan rail link would be fantastic if implemented as it will allow Sligo (and potential future Monaghan and Cavan services from Mullingar which are also recommended in the review) to terminate at Heuston, where there is loads of space for capacity enhancement and extra platforms (unlike poor Connolly) and which will be reached by full quad-track thanks to DART + SW (also unlike poor Connolly). 

 

They also recommended Rosslare line services terminate at Bray, with passengers wanting to journey on to Dublin making a very easy cross-platform interchange for an increased-frequency DART service to Dublin. While this may seem bad, it allows for more frequent services from Rosslare and Wexford to Bray and there would be no actual increase in journey time at all by having to change train, as Rosslare trains are stuck behind DARTs all the way from Bray and so take the same time as them to reach Connolly anyway. This would allow Connolly to be a completely commuter/DART only station (aside from the Enterprise), with 5 platforms (3 through and 2 bays) for DARTs to serve Maynooth, Drogheda, Hazelhatch/Kildare, Bray and maybe the airport being very sufficient and 2 platforms for the hourly Enterprise. 

 

I apologise to everyone for that Shpeel, I’m not great at getting my point across quickly at all, so sorry about that and thanks again @DoctorPan for opening my eyes to being pro-Metrolink again! Now, back to the Foynes line!!…

I could be missing something, but a solution potentially…?

The old route is clear apart from the building in the centre of the photo. 
They can always be a problem.
 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

Stephen

[Noel]

Ultimately the existing dart line will eventually be quad tracked despite the massive CPO costs, when I suggest eventually probably sometime for sure in the next 100 years. There may the tunnelling for parts of it to reduce land and property CPO costs, but it seems unavoidable despite the uproar from parts of the east coast urban areas. Only then can inter city rail from the north and south get in and out of Dublin faster, and can Dublin area commuter rail get past the existing bottle necks, and interconnect with the city via Heuston and Connolly. Heuston badly needs a direct link with Connolly, as does the airport with both. Heuston line could also do with a large park and ride though station at the intersection with the M50 so road users from the surrounding counties can avail of a metro service in the city. We have to bite the bullet and bet the farm by investing hundreds of billions in transport infrastructure and take a hundred year view instead of short 5 year political piecemeal view of outcomes. London and Paris are what they are because courageous politicians invested for a century. Despite Ireland apparently being one of the wealthiest nations on earth we still have second rate infrastructure. Invest for a century not 5 year plans. It's possible to get anywhere in London via public transport and especially the tube, without needing a car. There's no reason Dubin cannot be the same. The Luas doesn't cut it yet because of limited coverage, overcrowding and it's too slow to get across the city. Dedicated Heavy rail speeds things up because it doesn't have to compete with road traffic and all the safety guff that entails.

[jhb171achill]

On 8/12/2023 at 8:28 AM, DoctorPan said:

Possibly, depends on your curvature. At a quick glance, you got be knocking part of the canopy to get your new platform in. Might be more feasabile in a few years when the bus station moves. Proves that scequencing of projects is important because a project can become viable if another project is completed!

In steam days, trains with 60ft timber carriages could leave from Limerick and go round the direct curve. Both 28s and new BEMUs will have much shorter carriages, so there is actually zero issue in terms of how tight the curve is, I presume?

[jhb171achill]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:21 PM, Noel said:

Ultimately the existing dart line will eventually be quad tracked despite the massive CPO costs, when I suggest eventually probably sometime for sure in the next 100 years. There may the tunnelling for parts of it to reduce land and property CPO costs, but it seems unavoidable despite the uproar from parts of the east coast urban areas. Only then can inter city rail from the north and south get in and out of Dublin faster, and can Dublin area commuter rail get past the existing bottle necks, and interconnect with the city via Heuston and Connolly. Heuston badly needs a direct link with Connolly, as does the airport with both. Heuston line could also do with a large park and ride though station at the intersection with the M50 so road users from the surrounding counties can avail of a metro service in the city. We have to bite the bullet and bet the farm by investing hundreds of billions in transport infrastructure and take a hundred year view instead of short 5 year political piecemeal view of outcomes. London and Paris are what they are because courageous politicians invested for a century. Despite Ireland apparently being one of the wealthiest nations on earth we still have second rate infrastructure. Invest for a century not 5 year plans. It's possible to get anywhere in London via public transport and especially the tube, without needing a car. There's no reason Dubin cannot be the same. The Luas doesn't cut it yet because of limited coverage, overcrowding and it's too slow to get across the city. Dedicated Heavy rail speeds things up because it doesn't have to compete with road traffic and all the safety guff that entails.

All true; and in all reality - you mention London - the ONLY way is underground. With every street on the surface having a finite width, we can reorganise them till we're blue in the face to take cycleways, trams, traffic, buses, or trees with nice benches under them, for the vandals to graffiti over. We can single or double traffic lanes all we want, but at the end of the day every one of the above that is expanded is directly and oppositely to the detriment of the others. And no matter what the Greens say - and to be fair, much of their mutterings ger more criticism than is fair - people will never, ever give up their own personal private transport now that after a century we've got used to it, no matter what the price of petrol, and be they powered by battery, petrol, diesel, gas, paraffin, steam or guava juice. So private vehicles will retain at least some sort of presence in the city for ever. And the population continues to increase which means more of them.

The only show in town in the long run - yes, I know our politicians don't understand what "long" means - is a fully comprehensive underground railway system. Better now when the government has the money than at a future date when we mightn't. We had the world's first commuter railway. No reason why we can't get an underghround railway to match! It needs to connect Swords and Dunboyne north, Maynooth and some of those new places on the Cork line to the east, and Bray / Tallaght / Knocklyon south.

[Mayner]

25 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

All true; and in all reality - you mention London - the ONLY way is underground. With every street on the surface having a finite width, we can reorganise them till we're blue in the face to take cycleways, trams, traffic, buses, or trees with nice benches under them, for the vandals to graffiti over. We can single or double traffic lanes all we want, but at the end of the day every one of the above that is expanded is directly and oppositely to the detriment of the others. And no matter what the Greens say - and to be fair, much of their mutterings ger more criticism than is fair - people will never, ever give up their own personal private transport now that after a century we've got used to it, no matter what the price of petrol, and be they powered by battery, petrol, diesel, gas, paraffin, steam or guava juice. So private vehicles will retain at least some sort of presence in the city for ever. And the population continues to increase which means more of them.

The only show in town in the long run - yes, I know our politicians don't understand what "long" means - is a fully comprehensive underground railway system. Better now when the government has the money than at a future date when we mightn't. We had the world's first commuter railway. No reason why we can't get an underghround railway to match! It needs to connect Swords and Dunboyne north, Maynooth and some of those new places on the Cork line to the east, and Bray / Tallaght / Knocklyon south.

Might have to go elevated suburban systems similar to Singapore https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/metros/high-speed-track-completed-at-singapores-rail-test-centre/ with the increasing risk of flooding in low lying coastal cities.

The New Zealand Treasury estimated that last Januarys Auckland Anniversary floods cost between $9-15 NZ billion damaged to public infrastructure (including roads and rail) between $5-9 Billion.

The  heavy rain and flooding resulted in extensive traffic disruption and put the electrified suburban rail system out of operation and caused severed damaged to the 130Km North Auckland freight line which is expected to be out of service until early/did 2024.

 

[DoctorPan]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

In steam days, trains with 60ft timber carriages could leave from Limerick and go round the direct curve. Both 28s and new BEMUs will have much shorter carriages, so there is actually zero issue in terms of how tight the curve is, I presume?

No idea what radius that curve would end up being, but from my pw background, that's the first question asked, does it meet the company standards.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, DoctorPan said:

No idea what radius that curve would end up being, but from my pw background, that's the first question asked, does it meet the company standards.

It would be no worse than the “direct curve” on NIR at Great Victoria Street - and little sharper than Cork…..

[DoctorPan]

39 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

It would be no worse than the “direct curve” on NIR at Great Victoria Street - and little sharper than Cork…..

Ah but the 'direct curve' is a different company and juristriction, and Cork is a legacy asset. It could be fine but I can't say for sure unless I know the horizontal and verticals of it. Theorical it could work but who knows.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

It would be no worse than the “direct curve” on NIR at Great Victoria Street - and little sharper than Cork…..

I’ve heard that it’s fine for stuff already built. It would be very hard to change the curve at kent for instance. However for new built project starting from scratch there would be a minimum radius. I’ve deffinettly heard somehere that curved platforms are no longer being constructed too due to accessibility 

[DoctorPan]

21 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I’ve heard that it’s fine for stuff already built. It would be very hard to change the curve at kent for instance. However for new built project starting from scratch there would be a minimum radius. I’ve deffinettly heard somehere that curved platforms are no longer being constructed too due to accessibility 

Yup, curved platforms are not first preference due to accessability issues. 

[Westcorkrailway]

I’ve often had people complain about the gap in Cork and how “the platforms should be built closer to the door of the coach”. It is a little bit more complicated then that. I have heard some modern trains have extensible ramps though….or something like that 

[jhb171achill]

24 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I’ve often had people complain about the gap in Cork and how “the platforms should be built closer to the door of the coach”. It is a little bit more complicated then that. I have heard some modern trains have extensible ramps though….or something like that 

Carriages with doors in the middle would be better…..

[Broithe]

20 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Carriages with doors in the middle would be better…..

Unless the platform is on the outside of the bend.

"Ideally", you would have doors at the ends and in the middle, but only have the doors near to the platform edge in use - that would be fun...

[GSR 800]

49 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I’ve often had people complain about the gap in Cork and how “the platforms should be built closer to the door of the coach”. It is a little bit more complicated then that. I have heard some modern trains have extensible ramps though….or something like that 

On the Dart + ramps extend from the doors to the platform

[Westcorkrailway]

48 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Carriages with doors in the middle would be better…..

Bring back the AEC railcars! 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Westcorkrailway

[jhb171achill]

40 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Bring back the AEC railcars! 

Awkward to maintain, less reliable and very noisy, but…….

YES! Bring ‘em back! Far more comfortable (with ear muffs) than ANY modern vehicle!