Horse transport and boxes on the Irish rail system

[Colin R]

Hi Guys not one to let anyone down but as I don't follow horse racing, I don't have a clue as to just how important the movement of the horse around the Irish railway system really was, so does anyone want to start with your own observations on this subject? 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Colin R

[Westcorkrailway]

20 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Hi Guys not one to let anyone down but as I don't follow horse racing, I don't have a clue as to just how important the movement of the horse around the Irish railway system really was, so does anyone want to start with your own observations on this subject? 

In West Cork, you’d sometimes have a race horse put onto a lone cattle wagon and sent away up to X race or to be sold. Would have been VIP cargo! 

[minister_for_hardship]

Race specials and horse fairs you'd have long rakes of those horse wagons. The Midland had ones with a compartment for the groom and even a built-in dog kennel, perhaps catering to the hunting set.

The ones with groom's compartments still retained oil interior lighting long, long after it had disappeared from regular coaching stock.

[Galteemore]

In addition to horse shows (Belfast and Dublin) there were also occasional hunt specials (replicated by Richard Chown on his 7mm empire).  Even the SLNC had a horse box……
Pre 1921 there was significant military horse traffic. In fact, a cavalry train was blown up (although the damage looks to be more from the derailment than the explosive charge) on the GN main line in 1921 by the IRA, an incident in which four  soldiers and over a dozen horses died, many more being injured.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Galteemore

[Colin R]

I wonder, would they have also used cattle wagons if there were a lot of horses to be moved at the same time?

 

Colin

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Colin R

[patrick]

I recall seeing a special train of horses boxes hauled by an A class arrive in Trailer for the September race week some time in the late sixties. 

[Galteemore]

Possibly cattle wagons on occasion, Colin. But I’d suggest only if vacuum braked, not loose coupled.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Galteemore

[Billycan]

These 2 scans from 'Memoirs of an Irish Auction House - GOFFS' give some insight.  I suspect that many of the horses on the Kildare trains would have been destined for military use in the British Empire.

 

 

[Northroader]

When the British army had cavalry exercises pre WW1, the officers horses tended to get proper horseboxes, and other ranks had cattle wagons. The other thing is I have heard it said that horses in cattle boxes tended to get discompooperated unless they were sheeted over, due to the country whizzing past. Proper horseboxes never had open spaces or windows in the horse compartments.

[Northroader]

Following up, here’s a MGWR horsebox, with a distinctive projecting end for the dogbox. There’s a good drawing in Ernie Shepherds book for this.

[minister_for_hardship]

GSR horses in horse boxes.

[leslie10646]

I've been considering doing a kit of a GS(W)R or GNR horsebox for ages.

Is there any interest in one? I have drawings and lots of photos.

 

 

[Mayner]

There is a 1969 photo of a Cabra-Listowel horse box special at NewCastle West in Rails through North Kerry (JHB & Barry Carse). The train is made up of ex-GSWR horseboxes (approx 15-20) topped and tailed by Bulleid 4w vans.

Horse traffic by rail ceased in the early 1970s when CIE withdrew its fleet (mainly ex-GSWR) Horseboxes, the majority of Irish Horseboxes were similar in outline to the SLNCR (ex WLWR) van in Galteemores post, quite unlike the Hornby rtr model.

The GSR and CIE did not build new horseboxes continuing to use pre-Amalgamation stock. Surviving ex-CBSCR, DSER, MGWR stock are likely to have been withdrawn by the late 50s

I produced an etched kit of the MGWR Horsebox 7-8 years ago which was discontinued as a result of poor demand. The etched parts are available to order, while the castings may be available from Dart Castings (MJT).

[Colin R]

6 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

I've been considering doing a kit of a GS(W)R or GNR horsebox for ages.

Is there any interest in one? I have drawings and lots of photos.

 

 

I am not sure how many you would need to break even but I would be interested  

[David Holman]

 Here are a couple of 7mm scale models I built a while ago. One is the MGWR version already seen earlier, the other is a WL&WR version. Both are scratch built in plastic, using Alphagraphix card kits as the drawings. The WL&W horse box is back dated to original livery as it was originally built as the Sligo Leitrim one, which came from the WL&W...

[Galteemore]

Pains me to say it but the WLWR box looks better in red than SLNC green …;) 

[David Holman]

The poor thing was vey scruffy in Sligo ownership, but then it was pretty old when they actually got their hands on it!

[Dun Aucht]

The attack on the train at Adavolye in 1921. My great Uncle, my maternal grandmother's youngest brother,  was on the train that was attacked. He was in the 10th Hussars and been providing the Sovereign's escort to King George V for the state opening of parliament in the north. My great Uncle was injured and later died some months later of pneumonia.

Horse traffic on the NCC. The NCC certainly did have horseboxes for the conveyance of horse traffic. There were point to point races held at Lisnalinchy in the 1920s on the Ballyclare Branch.

I have attached a couple of photographs, one by Des Coakham of the NCC V9 Horsebox. Bill Bedford did a brass kit of this wagon around 30 years ago. The Second photograph is by Henry Casserley of E1 0-6-0 No.53 at Ballymena in August 1930 with a couple of horseboxes on the drawbar. I believe they are GNR(I) examples.

 

[jhb171achill]

19 minutes ago, Dun Aucht said:

The attack on the train at Adavolye in 1921. My great Uncle, my maternal grandmother's youngest brother,  was on the train that was attacked. He was in the 10th Hussars and been providing the Sovereign's escort to King George V for the state opening of parliament in the north. My great Uncle was injured and later died some months later of pneumonia.

Horse traffic on the NCC. The NCC certainly did have horseboxes for the conveyance of horse traffic. There were point to point races held at Lisnalinchy in the 1920s on the Ballyclare Branch.

I have attached a couple of photographs, one by Des Coakham of the NCC V9 Horsebox. Bill Bedford did a brass kit of this wagon around 30 years ago. The Second photograph is by Henry Casserley of E1 0-6-0 No.53 at Ballymena in August 1930 with a couple of horseboxes on the drawbar. I believe they are GNR(I) examples.

 

Very interesting! I had never seen a pic of those GNR ones. Certainly if a very non-standard type.

On 26/1/2023 at 9:55 PM, leslie10646 said:

I've been considering doing a kit of a GS(W)R or GNR horsebox for ages.

Is there any interest in one? I have drawings and lots of photos.

 

 

GSWR please!!

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, Dun Aucht said:

The attack on the train at Adavolye in 1921. My great Uncle, my maternal grandmother's youngest brother,  was on the train that was attacked. He was in the 10th Hussars and been providing the Sovereign's escort to King George V for the state opening of parliament in the north. My great Uncle was injured and later died some months later of pneumonia.

 

Thanks for sharing this personal story which brings the bare statistics to life. 10th Hussars eventually merged to become King’s Royal Hussars. Now armed with Challenger tanks, they still rely on rail transport on occasion. Photo crown copyright, Cpl Mark Webster. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Galteemore

[Colin R]

2 hours ago, Dun Aucht said:

The attack on the train at Adavolye in 1921. My great Uncle, my maternal grandmother's youngest brother,  was on the train that was attacked. He was in the 10th Hussars and been providing the Sovereign's escort to King George V for the state opening of parliament in the north. My great Uncle was injured and later died some months later of pneumonia.

Horse traffic on the NCC. The NCC certainly did have horseboxes for the conveyance of horse traffic. There were point to point races held at Lisnalinchy in the 1920s on the Ballyclare Branch.

I have attached a couple of photographs, one by Des Coakham of the NCC V9 Horsebox. Bill Bedford did a brass kit of this wagon around 30 years ago. The Second photograph is by Henry Casserley of E1 0-6-0 No.53 at Ballymena in August 1930 with a couple of horseboxes on the drawbar. I believe they are GNR(I) examples.

 

I wonder if Bill Bedford still has them, I guess that as etching has changed, he might need to make some new etched masters.    

[leslie10646]

7 hours ago, Dun Aucht said:

The attack on the train at Adavolye in 1921. My great Uncle, my maternal grandmother's youngest brother,  was on the train that was attacked. He was in the 10th Hussars and been providing the Sovereign's escort to King George V for the state opening of parliament in the north. My great Uncle was injured and later died some months later of pneumonia.

Horse traffic on the NCC. The NCC certainly did have horseboxes for the conveyance of horse traffic. There were point to point races held at Lisnalinchy in the 1920s on the Ballyclare Branch.

I have attached a couple of photographs, one by Des Coakham of the NCC V9 Horsebox. Bill Bedford did a brass kit of this wagon around 30 years ago. The Second photograph is by Henry Casserley of E1 0-6-0 No.53 at Ballymena in August 1930 with a couple of horseboxes on the drawbar. I believe they are GNR(I) examples.

 

Hi Dun

The GNR certainly did have horseboxes.

May I ask if you OWN the negative of the Casserley NCC photo?

Thanks.

[Dun Aucht]

Leslie

Unfortunately not. I had extensive correspondence with Richard Casserley over 30 years ago and obtained lots of prints of wagons and coaches. I don't know what happened to their photos when Richard passed. Glad I got a lot of the material when I did.

[Colin R]

A lot of the photos where sold at auctions in the UK so have got split up I think the Industrial Railway Society may have acquired a few of them.

[the Bandon tank]

Leslie, I would definitely be interested in a couple of horse box,s  if you decide to go ahead with the project.

[jhb171achill]

Note on horse box liveries.

Unlike other non-passenger stock, horse boxes on Irish railways were generally painted in the passenger coach livery of the relevant company, but inevitably the plain colour, without lining. The coach-style lettering on the NCC one pictured above confirms that it is painted in (undoubtedly badly faded) LMS maroon. Thus, BCDR, WLWR, DSER and NCC ones = maroon; GNR and MGWR = brown, and GSWR ones a very dark purply brown. I'm unsure if any survived to receive UTA green, but the GSR painted them maroon, and CIE painted them green up to about 1962. To buck the trend, any repainted by CIE after that were never black'n'tan - they were plain standard wagon grey. None ever got the post-1970 brown, as far as I am aware; few were ever in use by then.

As often, there exceptions to the rules! SLNCR horse boxes were - I think - grey, but at least one parcel van seems to have been in the (again, horrifically faded) carriage maroon. Donegal and Lough Swilly ones were grey. I've no information on other narrow gauge lines that i can think of.....

[Galteemore]

The parcels vans were maroon as they originally formed part of the 1921 mail train. The horse box, AFAIK, was green.

[Colin R]

Hi JHB I am sure that most of the 3ft gauge horseboxes where grey, the only ones I am not certain of are those on the Cavan and Leitrim Railway being either Green, Maroon or Grey depending on the year in question.

Colin  

[Branchline121]

Did MGWR horseboxes ever travel as far as the Kingscourt branch, to Proudstown Park maybe?

[jhb171achill]

49 minutes ago, Branchline121 said:

Did MGWR horseboxes ever travel as far as the Kingscourt branch, to Proudstown Park maybe?

Undoubtedly, yes. Apart from race meetings, the odd visit of a horsebox to just about any station was possible, when the "gentry" travelled - along with a flat truck with their carriage on it.

 

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

The parcels vans were maroon as they originally formed part of the 1921 mail train. The horse box, AFAIK, was green.

I'd be interested to know the source for that.... green would be an odd colour for it, though I'm not doubting it. Disclaimer: if this is from an Alphagrahpix kit colour, many of the liveries used on those pre-printed kits are entirely incorrect.

[NorthWallDocker]

On 26/1/2023 at 3:55 PM, leslie10646 said:

I've been considering doing a kit of a GS(W)R or GNR horsebox for ages.

Is there any interest in one? I have drawings and lots of photos.

 

 

I'd certainly be interested in one or two of each, Leslie -- GS&WR and GNR(I).

[Galteemore]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

 

 

I'd be interested to know the source for that.... green would be an odd colour for it, though I'm not doubting it. Disclaimer: if this is from an Alphagrahpix kit colour, many of the liveries used on those pre-printed kits are entirely incorrect. 
 

The source is Des Coakham, JHB. Dark green with yellow lettering. It’s in his Broad Gauge Carriages book.
 

In defence of Alphagraphix, most of the card kits are actually pretty accurate. The livery on his painted brass models can be less so. This is I suspect for 2 reasons. Firstly - painted with whatever shades and transfers he had in stock. Second - these display models are mostly  seen in UK venues (past tense probably as I don’t think he does shows now) and the coaches were purchased by generic light railway modellers, rather than purist Irish modellers. Roger is a skilled graphic designer with a very good knowledge of Irish railways - and has published in the field - so it’s not that he makes careless mistakes on this. 

And as for Roger’s green CIE locos, I wonder if anyone ever took Drew Donaldson to task over his unprototypical green paint. If so, I’d have bought tickets to that encounter ! 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Galteemore said:

The source is Des Coakham, JHB. Dark green with yellow lettering. It’s in his Broad Gauge Carriages book.
 

In defence of Alphagraphix, most of the card kits are actually pretty accurate. The livery on his painted brass models can be less so. This is I suspect for 2 reasons. Firstly - painted with whatever shades and transfers he had in stock. Second - these display models are mostly  seen in UK venues (past tense probably as I don’t think he does shows now) and the coaches were purchased by generic light railway modellers, rather than purist Irish modellers. Roger is a skilled graphic designer with a very good knowledge of Irish railways - and has published in the field - so it’s not that he makes careless mistakes on this. 

And as for Roger’s green CIE locos, I wonder if anyone ever took Drew Donaldson to task over his unprototypical green paint. If so, I’d have bought tickets to that encounter ! 

Many did, I understand! 

His reply was matter-of-factly, “I like the green livery”!

Des Coakham I would believe 1000%, but I’m afraid livery inaccuracy with AlphaG is plentiful!

Edited February 7, 2023 by jhb171achill