If there was all the money in the world to bring meab back to the mainline what routes would it be cleared on. and what issues would there be to get over in order to get gsr 800 back to running order

[james1994]

just curious what it would potientally take to get gsr 800 back running mainline. i know its not possible. its more just wanting to know in detail why it could or could not go on to mainline. i know that the axle load is near 21 plus tonnes per axle. and that its very tall also 

Edited December 26, 2023 by james1994

[David Holman]

Fairly sure the Queens only ran on the Dublin to Cork mainline. Assuming the megafunds, several million euros, were not a problem, then it would all depend on track and bridge capacity, in terms of axle weight, then things like platform clearances and also where turntables of suitable length are available. If any.

 However, if enough money available to get the Queen up and running again, it may not be too big a step to ensure there are turntables at Cork and Dublin. That or triangles...

[Broithe]

Most bridges on the Premier Line are original - any new ones are unlikely to be under-gauge, I imagine. They are more beams than arches.

Platforms might be more of a problem for carriages than locos? So, not a problem.

It would only need a turning arrangement at the ends, for any runs that are likely to happen. 

It seems unlikely that track weight capacity would be less now than it was back then.

Is there any chance of electrifying it and shoving a big speaker in?

And maybe one of those ultrasonic humidifier things for the steam effect.

[james1994]

On 26/12/2023 at 11:57 PM, Broithe said:

Most bridges on the Premier Line are original - any new ones are unlikely to be under-gauge, I imagine. They are more beams than arches.

Platforms might be more of a problem for carriages than locos? So, not a problem.

It would only need a turning arrangement at the ends, for any runs that are likely to happen. 

It seems unlikely that track weight capacity would be less now than it was back then.

Is there any chance of electrifying it and shoving a big speaker in?

And maybe one of those ultrasonic humidifier things for the steam effect.

i might as well get the studio scales brass kit then i can have meab on my layout lol

[irishrailways52]

could also run Dublin to Belfast. was transported by rail to cultra a few years ago.

[leslie10646]

2 hours ago, irishrailways52 said:

could also run Dublin to Belfast. was transported by rail to cultra a few years ago.

Yes and no. A load of smoke deflecting plates had to removed from footbridges (?) to get her under and she was towed, I think quite slowly. Now these have almost certainly have gone by now, but as the track has been fettled up, the track may have been raised, so that a tall loco would clobber bridges. A comparison of the heights of No.131 and 800 would answer this, of course, but I don't have my Locos of the GNR book to hand.

Bearing in mind the colossal cost, why would anyone want to restore her to run on the Cork line for just a few runs a year? At least the GNR 4-4-0s can run almost anywhere?

I know that Ken and Rob would love to take her for a spin down to Cork, but .........

[Horsetan]

28 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

....Bearing in mind the colossal cost, why would anyone want to restore her to run on the Cork line for just a few runs a year? At least the GNR 4-4-0s can run almost anywhere?

I know that Ken and Rob would love to take her for a spin down to Cork, but .........

Would make more sense to export her to the Victorian Railways network in Australia. She'd get the run of herself over there - something that was never quite possible in Ireland.

[Galteemore]

In the 1980s it was briefly considered sending 171 for a visit. She was quite troublesome at that time and I well recall the RPSI’s loco engineer being fairly philosophical about the risks of losing her at sea….he opined that as long as the wheels were rescued, everything else was fit for Davy Jones locker….

[jhb171achill]

Yes, you're talking about impossible zillions.

First things first; the locomotive is believed not to be in the best condition, but no restoration is impossible - look at some of the Barry wrecks, now running on preserved railways in Brexitland; in truth, having been rebuilt from a single bolt, a number plate and the smell of an oil rag, many are effectively new-builds. So, apart from perhaps a decade of time and a very big lot of money, restoration is theoretically possible.

That was the easy bit.

It is not certain that it would fit under ANY bridge anywhere now, as track levels have risen significantly since it operated, on the ONE line it was able to operate on. I would forget about Belfast too.

At this point, it's almost certainly end of story, puff puff back to Cultra.

But, let's say that it WOULD fit on the Cork line again (it wouldn't, but imagine)....

1.  It will be so long away from the rails, that it will be treated for certification purposes as a new build (gawd help the RPSI when 105 rolls out). This means an absolutely colossal amount of paperwork, testing, and trial runs. The cost of this alone will run into five or six figures before papers are signed to say it can operate. And - who will operate it?

2. Crew training - once the engine is certified it would need a very intensive and sustained period of crew training with load, and driver familiarity. This simply is not practical on a Cork line with increasing local trains at eiother end and an hourly service. This, again, is a point in the process, where the big "N O" raises its head. But let's assume the tooth fairy is still on our side!

3. It can be looked after in Dublin now - but if a metro tunnel ever appears, or Inchicore is sold off or modernised too much, that won't be possible. As it is, there is no likely means of adequately servicing it in Cork, as far as I know. So, if Inchicore goes, that's the final nail in the coffin - nowhere to keep it!

4. The market? People forget this is not Britain. If this WAS Britain, the lineside would be crammed with people with cameras from Kingsbridge to Glanmire Road, and they'd need an army of security at Inchicore while steam was being raised. Once operating, you'd stick 15 carriages behind it and sell every seat for a £100+ fare. Not here ye won't! The cost of operating a Dublin-Cork return trip with this locomotive would be astronomical. What's left of my treasurer's thoughts as I age suggest a fare per adult of €150 - €200 a head. Given what I know of the Irish railway enthusiast psyche and commercial market, even the tooth fairy won't crack that one. And even if every enthusiast on this island was inspired with generosity towards steam travel, will Irish Rail permit a train long enough to hold the necessary number of people to make a trip behind it financially viable?

800 will remain in Cultra, as 36 will in Cork.

The best hope - and this IS possible - is that as AI develops to ever more realistic levels, a "virtual" video can be made of it visiting the entire Irish railway network.

Actual operation of 800, quite simply, isn't going to be an option, ever.

Mind you; a separate issue, I know - a friend of mine is in the earkly stages of constructing a live steam 7 1/4 inch gauge version! Now THAT will be a sight to see, but that's entirely another story. And - come and see Fry's "0" gauge model of it in the Malahide Model Railway Museum! 

Edited December 29, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Mike 84C]

Well said JHB, you know your enthusiast market very well! You are quite right about the restoration cost and I have no knowledge of the condition of 800 but rest assured there will be detractors who will not encourage a return to steam, as there are those who would be very keen to see 800's return. Maybe bring it to Britain , re- gauge it then give it a trial against the rebuilt Scot? 10/11 coaches over the S&C !!!   

Now that is real pie in the sky!!

Deep ballasting and modern tamping machines are the real killer for big engines that fill the loading gauge, remember the King had to have its boiler fittings and chimney reduced in height to be able to run on the mainline.

But remember, US loco's plinthed in the 1950's are now running again, so all is possible if there's the money and the will.  

 

[minister_for_hardship]

The difference between here and the US are more generous clearances and (again) the level of interest. 

The general public here, say on Santa trains, are maybe a faintly interested Daddy and a Mummy looking for a vaguely "old timey train" experience for the kiddiwinks with Santy. They couldn't care less if 800 or 131 or an 071 hauled it. Hell, one of those road train yokes going to a Santa village would do them just as well.

Apart from visiting enthusiasts mainly from uk, these are the people that help pay the bills and keep the heat on for the RPSI, not Irish enthusiasts.

[jhb171achill]

32 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

The difference between here and the US are more generous clearances and (again) the level of interest. 

The general public here, say on Santa trains, are maybe a faintly interested Daddy and a Mummy looking for a vaguely "old timey train" experience for the kiddiwinks with Santy. They couldn't care less if 800 or 131 or an 071 hauled it. Hell, one of those road train yokes going to a Santa village would do them just as well.

Apart from visiting enthusiasts mainly from uk, these are the people that help pay the bills and keep the heat on for the RPSI, not Irish enthusiasts.

This, unfortunately, is and has been the reality.

For some twenty years, before the Santas reached their maximum effectiveness (or even existed) the May Tour was the raft the RPSI floated on.

My annual RPSI budget calculations, and those of my predecessor, were largely determined by what profit it made.

At most, enthusiasts from all 32 counties would have filled one coach - ANY year - meaning that without the English market this annual outing would not have been able to run. Some years the entire Irish contingent might have only filled half a coach.

”It’s too expensive!”, we used to hear. 

Yup, it wasn’t cheap. But the English, whose basic level of disposable income wasn’t HUGELY above ours, came in their droves, not just paying the fares, but paying for hotels, flights and ferries, on top of that.

We’d do a raffle. The English folks would buy ten tickets and throw a fiver on top as a donation. Not so our own good folks here - we would buy one, or none, or look out the window!

Such, boys and girls, is life; we are grateful to our neighbours from GB - without you over the years, it’s very possible the RPSI might no longer exist, such was your level of support!

Edited December 29, 2023 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mike 84C said:

Well said JHB, you know your enthusiast market very well! You are quite right about the restoration cost and I have no knowledge of the condition of 800 but rest assured there will be detractors who will not encourage a return to steam, as there are those who would be very keen to see 800's return. Maybe bring it to Britain , re- gauge it then give it a trial against the rebuilt Scot? 10/11 coaches over the S&C !!!   

Now that is real pie in the sky!!

Deep ballasting and modern tamping machines are the real killer for big engines that fill the loading gauge, remember the King had to have its boiler fittings and chimney reduced in height to be able to run on the mainline.

But remember, US loco's plinthed in the 1950's are now running again, so all is possible if there's the money and the will.  

 

Woohoo!! 800 in the S & C! Where can I sign up! What a thought!

Yes, as you say, deep ballasting etc throws a spanner in the works.

When I wrote my initial answer above, I was conscious that it could come across itself as pure doom-mongering. But this particular one is, in reality, a non-starter for the reasons shown.

Some could be got around, but even after delivery of a fully restored loco, unlike the S & C, and indeed Britain in general, there simply is nowhere on our rail network it could operate, and beyond Inchicore nowhere it could be stabled and maintained….

I forgot to mention turntables. One would have to be installed in Dublin and Cork (where in Cork…?) big enough for it. That’s doable, but the rest sadly isn’t….

[16miller]

The first thing would be to obtain the current loading gauge for the two railway companies and measure the engine. If anything was out of gauge could it be mounted a different way or elsewhere on the engine? Then find out if the axleweight is within tolerances.  Having satisfied ourselves that it could move on the rails, it would require an examination. Would the museum allow an examination?  

There are things that could be done to see if it was feasible, and gauge what sort of finance would be required. 

 

[Horsetan]

On 29/12/2023 at 12:51 PM, jhb171achill said:

This, unfortunately, is and has been the reality.

For some twenty years, before the Santas reached their maximum effectiveness (or even existed) the May Tour was the raft the RPSI floated on.

My annual RPSI budget calculations, and those of my predecessor, were largely determined by what profit it made.

At most, enthusiasts from all 32 counties would have filled one coach - ANY year - meaning that without the English market this annual outing would not have been able to run. Some years the entire Irish contingent might have only filled half a coach.

”It’s too expensive!”, we used to hear. 

Yup, it wasn’t cheap. But the English, whose basic level of disposable income wasn’t HUGELY above ours, came in their droves, not just paying the fares, but paying for hotels, flights and ferries, on top of that.

We’d do a raffle. The English folks would buy ten tickets and throw a fiver on top as a donation. Not so our own good folks here - we would buy one, or none, or look out the window!

Such, boys and girls, is life; we are grateful to our neighbours from GB - without you over the years, it’s very possible the RPSI might no longer exist, such was your level of support!

The Irish market, such as it is, has deep pockets....and very short arms.

[jhb171achill]

35 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

The Irish market, such as it is, has deep pockets....and very short arms.

This is it, yes! It's a different culture here, I suppose; we do ourselves a disservice comparing ourselves to the railway enthusiast / preservationist / even modelling, scenes in Britain, particularly England. England alone probably has more railway modellers, preservationists, railway museums and preserved railways than most of the rest of the world put together.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, 16miller said:

The first thing would be to obtain the current loading gauge for the two railway companies and measure the engine. If anything was out of gauge could it be mounted a different way or elsewhere on the engine? Then find out if the axleweight is within tolerances.  Having satisfied ourselves that it could move on the rails, it would require an examination. Would the museum allow an examination?  

There are things that could be done to see if it was feasible, and gauge what sort of finance would be required. 

 

It barely fitted under bridges before, and being so tall there's no scope to lower the chimney - and the track level is well above what it used to be, so that one's known already. Based on current and recent RPSI jobs, it could be anything from half a million upwards. Yes, as you say, many things could be done to assess and even restore: but nowhere to eventually run it, nowhere to look after it, and unlikely to be an ongoing market of sufgficient level to fund its future needs.

[Horsetan]

46 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

This is it, yes! It's a different culture here, I suppose; we do ourselves a disservice comparing ourselves to the railway enthusiast / preservationist / even modelling, scenes in Britain, particularly England. England alone probably has more railway modellers, preservationists, railway museums and preserved railways than most of the rest of the world put together.

It goes with the longstanding culture of being able to extract something for almost nothing wherever possible.

I'd say Germany runs Britain pretty close in the heritage stakes, and they have loads more steam locomotives to draw on mainly because they built standardised classes in the hundreds, and some in the thousands. 

[leslie10646]

42 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

It goes with the longstanding culture of being able to extract something for almost nothing wherever possible.

I'd say Germany runs Britain pretty close in the heritage stakes, and they have loads more steam locomotives to draw on mainly because they built standardised classes in the hundreds, and some in the thousands. 

The list of German preserved engines is long and the list of mainline tours offered is even longer - and seldom a diesel on the back - the curse of British tours now.

I like pure steam haulage, so this year my steam miles totalled about 1,500 miles - 1,000 plus in Switzerland and Germany.

[jhb171achill]

36 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

The list of German preserved engines is long and the list of mainline tours offered is even longer - and seldom a diesel on the back - the curse of British tours now.

I like pure steam haulage, so this year my steam miles totalled about 1,500 miles - 1,000 plus in Switzerland and Germany.

Couldn't agree more!

[16miller]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

It barely fitted under bridges before, and being so tall there's no scope to lower the chimney - and the track level is well above what it used to be, so that one's known already. Based on current and recent RPSI jobs, it could be anything from half a million upwards. Yes, as you say, many things could be done to assess and even restore: but nowhere to eventually run it, nowhere to look after it, and unlikely to be an ongoing market of sufgficient level to fund its future needs.

Has it been measured to the current loading gauge? Could a new chimney be cast? The problem with preservation here is that there are plenty who say 'It can't be done', and very few who say 'How could it be done?'. 

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, 16miller said:

Has it been measured to the current loading gauge? Could a new chimney be cast? The problem with preservation here is that there are plenty who say 'It can't be done', and very few who say 'How could it be done?'. 

Indeed; thirty years ago such questions were asked (and answered!) regarding No. 74 "Dunluce Castle" in UFTM. Despite incredible hurdles, the overall answer, after all things had been considered very carefully, was "yes". That remains the case. The same answer would apply, in theory, to BCDR 30 there, the GNR 2.4.2T and the derry shunter; as well as "Lough Erne" at Whitehead.

This is what I was afraid of in my initial answer; that I might be seen as one of the majority of "naysayers" as opposed to the few with the miagination to make things happen.

In the case of Maedb, the clearance was some three inches when the track was about 2ft lower; this in itself answers that question. As it was, the safety valves had to be removed en route. A cursory look at the thing shows that shortening of the chimney is not viable.

In the most purist form of theoretical possibility, it's quite possible to run it again - provided Irish Rail either raise the heights of all bridges necessary on the Cork line, or rebuild all the track at a lower level; also, that they build and install sheds and turntables at Dublin and Cork. Other than that, for once the naysayers have their moment!

[Mayner]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

This is it, yes! It's a different culture here, I suppose; we do ourselves a disservice comparing ourselves to the railway enthusiast / preservationist / even modelling, scenes in Britain, particularly England. England alone probably has more railway modellers, preservationists, railway museums and preserved railways than most of the rest of the world put together.

Another factor is the absence of wealthy sponsors/owner operators like Alan Peglar, Robert McAlpine, and Ian Welsh (New Zealand) from the Irish preservation/excursion train market. 

Peglar and McAlpine were responsible for the preservation and restoration of the "Flying Scotsman". Peglar was one of the pivotal figures in preservation, buying the locomotive outright, paying for its professional restoration and persuading BR to allow the loco to run on its metals. Peglar ran out of money and went broke when the Scotsman was touring the United States during the early 70s, McAlpine bought the loco and returned it to the UK.

Ian Welsh the founder of New Zealands "Main Line Steam Trust" is claimed to have the largest private collection of main line steam locos in the World, with collections in New Zealand and South Africa. 

https://www.mainlinesteam.co.nz/history

 

[Horsetan]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

Another factor is the absence of wealthy sponsors/owner operators ....

The likes of J.P. McManus et al prefer to put their money into racehorses, the GAA, etc.

[Galteemore]

Closest thing we had in this regard was Lord Dunleath, heir to a linen fortune, who decided he wanted to restore a main line steam engine. At his instigation, 85 was removed from Witham st museum - still in the same condition as she had been at withdrawal. Significantly funded by Dunleath, 85 was taken to Harland and Wolff for heavy work and then Whitehead. I was on the platform when 85 ran up and down on test c1984/85, with Dunleath on the footplate. Thoroughly decent man who was far from being a snooty aristocrat! He was also a keen Church of Ireland lay preacher and a huge fan of church organs and classic cars. Pic from RPSI site. Lord O’Neill, for his part, ensured that we enjoyed the experience of the Irish roadside tramway for many years in his establishment of the Shane’s Castle Railway. 
As a bynote, it’s worth remarking that 85,74 and 800 were all in Witham St together at this point, so in theory any could have been chosen. 85 was clearly seen as the most realistic and useful prospect. Note the ironic pic of 85 safely travelling past a scrapyard……

Edited December 31, 2023 by Galteemore

[MD220]

Lord Dunleath also provided the land required for the fledgling DCDR to begin construction in the mid '80s. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by MD220
Misspelling

[minister_for_hardship]

11 hours ago, Horsetan said:

It goes with the longstanding culture of being able to extract something for almost nothing wherever possible.

The "wouldn't it be lovely if..." or "someone should do something" Facebook comments.

There are heaps of preservation projects up and down the country in dire need of funds and boots on the ground help. 800 is fine, it's not under threat, it's under cover and being looked after.

Edited December 31, 2023 by minister_for_hardship

[16miller]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed; thirty years ago such questions were asked (and answered!) regarding No. 74 "Dunluce Castle" in UFTM. Despite incredible hurdles, the overall answer, after all things had been considered very carefully, was "yes". That remains the case. The same answer would apply, in theory, to BCDR 30 there, the GNR 2.4.2T and the derry shunter; as well as "Lough Erne" at Whitehead.

This is what I was afraid of in my initial answer; that I might be seen as one of the majority of "naysayers" as opposed to the few with the miagination to make things happen.

In the case of Maedb, the clearance was some three inches when the track was about 2ft lower; this in itself answers that question. As it was, the safety valves had to be removed en route. A cursory look at the thing shows that shortening of the chimney is not viable.

In the most purist form of theoretical possibility, it's quite possible to run it again - provided Irish Rail either raise the heights of all bridges necessary on the Cork line, or rebuild all the track at a lower level; also, that they build and install sheds and turntables at Dublin and Cork. Other than that, for once the naysayers have their moment!

Is the chimney a separate casting? What you're saying is exactly what I said. I doubt if the chimney is built into the smokebox, it'll be a casting bolted on. Rather than say 'It can't go under bridges', say 'what can be done to get it under bridges?' 

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, 16miller said:

Is the chimney a separate casting? What you're saying is exactly what I said. I doubt if the chimney is built into the smokebox, it'll be a casting bolted on. Rather than say 'It can't go under bridges', say 'what can be done to get it under bridges?' 

Raise the bridges or drop the trackbed. IE will be unlikely to even consider either; I doubt even mcManus could fund that.....! As an aside, whether the chimney was a separate casting or bolted on wouldn't actually be an issue either way - it would be thye bridges, now known to be insufficient in height.

[16miller]

On 31/12/2023 at 9:37 PM, jhb171achill said:

Raise the bridges or drop the trackbed. IE will be unlikely to even consider either; I doubt even mcManus could fund that.....! As an aside, whether the chimney was a separate casting or bolted on wouldn't actually be an issue either way - it would be thye bridges, now known to be insufficient in height.

What is the current loading gauge on both companies, and what's the height of the chimney top, whistle and safety valves. 

 

I'm hearing about thoughts of height, but very little actual dimensions to gauge it properly. 

[jhb171achill]

21 minutes ago, 16miller said:

What is the current loading gauge on both companies, and what's the height of the chimney top, whistle and safety valves. 

 

I'm hearing about thoughts of height, but very little actual dimensions to gauge it properly. 

Don’t know exact dimensions myself, but the one statistic I am aware of is that when Maedb was going north, there was barely 3ins to spare once the tallest fittings were off. 

Trackbed higher now by more than that, so a journey to Dublin now would be by road.

I’m sure someone here might have current Cork line loading gauge details?

[Galteemore]

All in here https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-network-statement

[KMCE]

 

On 31/12/2023 at 4:48 PM, 16miller said:

Rather than say 'It can't go under bridges', say 'what can be done to get it under bridges?' 

This may help to give an idea of how the loco was constructed to maximise the loading gauge of the time. 

Overall dimension from railhead to top of chimney is 13' 5 1/2" or 4.1m, so this can be compared to current bridge clearance to get an idea of accessibility.

Hope this helps

Ken

[Horsetan]

On 31/12/2023 at 4:48 PM, 16miller said:

Is the chimney a separate casting? What you're saying is exactly what I said. I doubt if the chimney is built into the smokebox, it'll be a casting bolted on. Rather than say 'It can't go under bridges', say 'what can be done to get it under bridges?' 

Maybe you might want to develop the idea proposed by Pilot Developments years ago, when they were asked how they would get something the size of Flying Scotsman to pass under the M11 motorway, if the engine was to run on the Epping-Ongar line in Essex. Pilot thought the best way was to - in their words - "hinge the stack", so that it would swing away from the smokebox in order to gain the clearance necessary. 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

Maybe you might want to develop the idea proposed by Pilot Developments years ago, when they were asked how they would get something the size of Flying Scotsman to pass under the M11 motorway, if the engine was to run on the Epping-Ongar line in Essex. Pilot thought the best way was to - in their words - "hinge the stack", so that it would swing away from the smokebox in order to gain the clearance necessary. 

Looking at the drawing above, it looks as if 800's is so short that it would actually make it taller if hinged!